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What We Talk About When We Talk About Anne Frank
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2020/8--Final Conclusions for Nathan Englander's What We Talk About When We Talk About Anne Frank--POLL WINNER
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I only read a few of the stories, since they didn't really grab me.
Mod
Im sorry you couldn't get into the book.
Have you read any of his other books?
I have been told numerous times that you either like it or dislike this book, having no gray area in between.
Hoping you enjoy one of the books you chose for the next read.
-S
I liked this book, although like is not exactly the right word. What I liked is that they touched on the essence of what it is to be Jewish and the ease with which one can stray from one’s professed values. I need to read the last one again. Englander is an outstanding writer with a gift of crafting great sentences and I was really drawn into the story without even realizing I had been drawn in.
Mod
I read this collection when it first came out,the short story is my favourite genre,but I didn’t care for it back then. I reread the first story for this group and was going to continue but I’m not thrilled with Englander’s work. This is the second collection I’ve read by him,the first introduced him and was enormously praised,I didn’t understand why,but I’ve learned since then that some books don’t work at the time you are reading them. I also read his first novel and I found it very bland,even though the topic was quite horrific.I have a lot of problems with this book by Englander. In case anyone didn’t pick up on this,and I apologize in advance for presuming anyone didn’t catch this already,the title What we talk about..is a play on Raymond Carver very beloved collection from the 1980s What We Talk About When We Talk About Love. That as I remember is a great story but since it’s been so many decades since I first read it I was planning on reading it again to see what Englander does with the original story.
I am really disturbed that Englander puts Anne Frank in the title of one of his stories and that it is no coincidence he makes this the title of his collection because the title is so provocative and dare I say,such a “name” brand that Englander knew it would sell books. Sadly Anne Frank has become more than the young girl and endless writers have exploited the memory of her to use in their stories. You may remember Philip Roth was probably the first to do this in his novella The Ghost Writer. There have been so many re-incarnations of Anne Frank,including the recent novel Margot which was about her sister if she had survived-that Francine Prose wrote a book about this and asked people to please stop exploiting Anne’s name for their own gain.
Having reread the title story I understand why Englander uses Anne Frank in the context,but I still think it’s a misuse and exploitative. I don’t think Anne Frank was a saint,a recent British production enacting her diary portrayed her as being somewhat peevish and self-centered which is fine-she dreamed of notoriety but not in the way it came about for her. I can only conclude that Englander in the story and in the title of the book takes advantage of Anne Frank and that doesn’t rest well with me.
Mod
Alan-
When Englander's book hit the shelf in 2012, I did a double take on the title.
Before reading the synopsis, I assumed the book would take on a few different themes that "we" would expect from the title.
I never presumed the title may be a marketing tool used for any other theme and style of a book.
So yes, I felt as you do.
I read it then with that thought stuck in my head in my head- and in doing so, I read 3/4 of it before calling it a day.
When the book was chosen as our group read; for me, the fair thing to do was to re-read it.
I finished it, rated it, and I did like it very much. I also understand Englander uses the title as an allegory, which doesn't mean that I accept it with a whole heart.
I thought it was a take on Carvers "What we Talk about when we Talk about Love".
Englander's last story took me by surprise, though it shouldn't have;
leaving me with my mouth open with an "Ah Ha moment" including the the onus put on someone else.
What I am not convinced about is Anne Frank not being a saint. I have never read anything to the contrary. If that conclusion comes from dissecting her stories and diary, I hardly think it's fair to judge that label under the circumstances in which she wrote.
But with this said, that is the least of it and irrelevant to both our comments.
I believe your point is what they called " Creative License"
except when it is at the expense of others.
*did not proof-read
I agree about the title, for the most part. On the other hand, it is as purposely provocative as the stories, in the sense that what one might expect from the start of a story is not at all what happens; just as we might still be moved and discomfited by the real story of Anne Frank, in some respects we might dance around it because it is still so painful to think about. So it’s possible that the title is a double entendre or a wanting that you can’t tell a book by its cover.And a correction to my earlier comments. It was the story “The Author” that I have to go back and read again (I haven’t yet read the last story), because it seems to be some kind of parable about fame, fortune, downfall, and the fact that self-reflection might just happen when one believes one has reached rock bottom. In that regard, as we are reading Deuteronomy in the Torah now, I’m reminded of how many times Moses felt like he was a failure and he needed guidance or a pep talk from God.
Mod
I thought the story "The Author" was well written. It took me inside the characters heart of emotions to feel all that you described as a parable to Moses- and then some.
Mod
To Louise' comment, I think it's great you did put your toe in the water and read a few. I guess that's a good thing about short stories.
Unlike Alan, short stories aren't a favorite genre of mine. They were when I was a child and youth. What happened? Maybe too many New Yorker stories that left me hanging and not satisfied? Well, that came later....
I think it was For the Relief of Unbearable Urges that I read with another book group close to a decade ago now. Or maybe some of the stories. And they haven't left much of a mark. I have a friend -- flesh-and-blood, not online -- who loves his short stories but not a novel of his that he read. And I've seen one of the novels written up by Matti Friedman & maybe somebody else too as an example of how American Jewish fiction is becoming centered around Israel. So, yes, a lot is being made of him, and I too have so far missed the boat! But for me, the title was actually a little bit of a deterrent, in that maybe it was going to be conventional. Does that make me a heretic? 😁 Now I'm wanting to take the plunge myself, just one story -- if not for this other book I'm into and trying to finish... Maybe just one!
But I will say this about titles and trying to latch on to something marketable. There is a particular person (for all I know, a member of this group!) who truly hates The Boy in the Striped Pajamas and who asserts it became a bestseller because the author wrote about the Holocaust. Well, if that's the case, there should be tons and tons more bestsellers, or at least better sellers. What I'm trying to say is that what becomes a good seller is not too manipulable by something like that. There's a randomness to it. Otherwise all the struggling writers could just change their fortunes with a flourish of the pen. In this case, it's reminiscent, almost, of fan fiction. But, as I said, on me, the title had a paradoxical impact: I hadn't read it. I got it because the group voted it in.
Also -- would love to hear from some of those voters.... what they thought.... disappointed? Or vindicated by their choice? 🤔😊
Personally, I loved it and have decided that Englander is one of my favorite writers.
I saw the movie based on Boy in Striped..and I never thought the author was cashing in on the holocaust. The ending of the film,and I guess the book was the same was a huge turn-off for me. I understand the intent-and being a ya story I’m sure it really woke up a lot of kids,it just seemed very phoney to me.
Mod
Sometimes I need the incentive of "assigned reading!"
I thought it was a good story. He took a somewhat improbable (at least to me) set-up. And he drew me into it pretty easily. I mean he got me to accept the situation and enter that world. And I didn't feel whatever I sometimes feel and don't like with short stories. Maybe punched in the gut for my trouble? I did not feel that way. I was thinking that could be because it wasn't the protagonist who failed the test.
But after I finished the story the spell faded. I was wondering was this real. Would I judge my husband on if he failed a test like that? And would there ever be just one test, pass or fail, that vindicates a relationship? Maybe not. Might be too "romantic." I used to think like that all the time, and it does not make for happiness.
And the one line consisting of the title? No. That knocked me out of the story. A real stumbling block. So maybe he did write this story and use its name for the book's name to sell the book. I wasn't aware of the provenance of "what we talk about when we...etc," so I was just thinking of the name "Anne Frank," since many people in the wider culture might be drawn to the book due to her attraction value. I don't mind authors trying to market their work, but be careful because some attempts can repel instead of sell! And I did notice it was a new story written just for this book, meaning hadn't been published previously in a magazine.
I probably wouldn't have been tuned in to the possible commercial aspirations if not for this discussion, but, like I said earlier, the title turned me off slightly from the start, so maybe I was picking up on the phenomenon.
Will read further soon.
Mod
Sometimes I need the incentive of "assigned reading!"
I thought it was a good story. He took a somewhat improbable (at least to m..."
Read the last story next.
Mod
Really!?!? Go all the way to the last story? ...thinking about that, Stacey! 😉
Meanwhile, you want a test of a relationship? Here's a test:
"The man has lived in a downtrodden state not conducive to personal dignity. That's what's wrong with his relationship with his wife. Then he does something noble and redeems himself in (his own and) her eyes. Then there is a traffic stop, and he grovels, and it is all shot back to hell."
That's from my review of Soul on Ice. The thing he actually did to "pass the test" was that his GF or wife is enraged and has a knife at his neck, and he falls asleep, head on her lap, I think. Establishing that he is, what, not bad? not guilty? not afraid? trusts her? puts his life in her hands?
Now that's a test!
Mod
Being somewhat stubborn, I read the next story next. 🙂
And it's a real horse of a different color, as though it could be by a different author.
An increasingly ominous legend, even though its beginning is a reality-based story. The contrast only intensifies the mood. A reverse-Rumpelstiltskin!
Okay; someone may be a heroine but in this case can't absorb infinite tragedy.
The story's setting is a potentially controversial West Bank settlement amid a background of religious Zionism.
So, does what develops with Rena constitute some sort of more general critique?
I wonder how some actual settlers or Haredim would react to this one.
Mod
"Somewhat stubborn" you say? Really? I suggested last story bc I wasn't sure if you were going to read the entire book. You said you were inundated with reads. Wanted you get the true flavor.
Mod
"Somewhat stubborn" you say? Really? I suggested last story bc I wasn't sure if you were going to read the entire book. You said you wer..."
I get it--despite stubbornness, Stacey! 😉 I plan to finish. It goes pretty fast doesn't it? These are long short stories and each one is quite a chunk of the book. Although any one of them might be associated with staying up too late. Once you begin, they're hard to put down!
Mod
Almost an oxymoron.
I have had inconsistent reactions to Englander's fiction ranging from liking very much -The Ministry of Special Cases- which i reread and led for my book group, to Dinner at the Center of the Earth which didn't engage me nearly as much. My reaction to these stories was similar although there was something to admire in each one and be wowed by in several. A collection of short stories can at best show off the author's range and facility with different types of characters and situations. I think these stories did that. I had my favorites but each one displayed Englander's ability to bring the reader into the time and place and i was moved by several.
I wasn’t able to get a copy of the book, but I do WTR it eventually.
Mod
You said it best about short stories showing off an authors range with different characters and situations.
In an aside to this conversation, I asked my pen pal Jacob M. Appel if he knew of Nathan Englander’s work. He said “yes, he’s a terrific writer, and I know him, and he once almost killed my best friend when he opened the door of a taxi from which he was exiting and my friend was riding in the bike lane beside him.” !!!
Mod
Susan wrote: "In an aside to this conversation, I asked my pen pal Jacob M. Appel if he knew of Nathan Englander’s work. He said “yes, he’s a terrific writer, and I know him, and he once almost killed my best fr..."That’s so sad😢😡
It would have been extremely sad had the friend not survived. Actually, I think Englander saw the cyclist coming as he opened the taxi door and managed to close it before there was a serious issue. 😊
Stacey, it is very cool to have a writer as a friend. I do know some local authors here in Tucson, but I knew them before they ever wrote a book. And I’ve sent an email, which I almost never do, to RL Maizes.
Mod
RL Maizes is a great author- but more important is that she is a doll.
I have seen this book around for years and like many was always drawn to the title and in retrospect totally misunderstood what the book was about. I thought this would be a book about Anne's years in hiding and would reflect on different instances on what happened when they were in hiding. The first story and also the title of the book was right on point with that and put the characters in a situation similar to the Amsterdam house. I also liked the conversation between Secular Jews and Orthodox Jews on values both Jewish and otherwise.The rest of the book was filled with interesting stories, some more then others. Sister Hills and in it the irony of when a promise is a promise and what that actually means. The Reader reminded me so much of that classic Twilight Zone, where the woman appears to be in a car accident in the beginning and keeps seeing the same hitchhiker as she drives down the road. Not accepting that she really was in a car accident and died and the hitchhiker was the Angel of Death. How we avenged the Blums, a great coming of age story of growing up in a mixed residential development and confronting a bully.
Mod
I've continued to plug along. Just read the sexy one last night. Whew! 😅 Competes well with bad boy French writer Michel Houellebecq.
Mod
I’m so glad I discovered this author here. I am enthralled by his writing. In terms of my “I never would have discovered these authors if not for ... [insert JBC or NetGalley]),” he’s on my short list which is :Jacob M. Appel
Frederik Backman
Nathan Englander
R.L. Maizes
My reading life and my life in general has been enriched by these writers, some of whom are Jewish, and those that aren’t, well, I am just sharing my list!
Susan
I found with both this book of short stories and kaddish.com that you have to suspend disbelief and just go wherever he takes you, and then come back from his world and consider not only what you make of the story, but how it affected you, which is my general approach to good literary fiction.
Mod
Read the next-to-the-last one last night too. 🤓
Just got my copy of this book from the library yesterday and I will start reading it tonight!
Mod
You're taking it up just as I finish, ClaraBelle. Looking forward to hearing what you think. And, glad you're library's open for business!
Mod
Jan wrote: "ClaraBelle wrote: "Just got my copy of this book from the library yesterday and I will start reading it tonight!"You're taking it up just as I finish, ClaraBelle. Looking forward to hearing what ..."
Thank you. I haven’t started it yet due to being so busy with starting school this week, but I plan on starting it this weekend
DNF as I didn’t like it. So it’s a rating of zero stars for me. I was expecting it to be solely about Anne Frank. And then when I realized it was a book of essays and read some, I thought the content was licentious and ungodly.
Mod
If you feel that way about the book, then best not to read it, as you've concluded! (One correction, though: it's a book not of essays but of short stories.)
And one more important thing: although everyone is entitled to their opinion you can't just say whatever you feel like saying. I'm taking issue with your moral condemnation of the book as evil. That is like a knock-out punch to the debate and the other commenters. We're not aiming to take each other out! --but for debate & mutual respect.
All the best to you, ClaraBelle!
Jan wrote: "Hi, ClaraBelle,If you feel that way about the book, then best not to read it, as you've concluded! (One correction, though: it's a book not of essays but of short stories.)
And one more important ..."
It wasn’t my intention to hurt your feelings but I was just sharing my thoughts on the book, and just saying that I wasn’t a fan of the book. But I still love and respect you and this group’s members.
Mod
Thanks for your participation, ClaraBelle, and for taking my comment in a positive way! 🌼 The fact is we do want different opinions & debate, and it's an ongoing challenge how to remain kind and still go deep. Since we aren't going to be perfect, we'll learn from mistakes and aim to be so creative and in such a good spirit that the mistakes only help us along the way.
Jan wrote: "ClaraBelle wrote: "...It wasn’t my intention to hurt your feelings but I was just sharing my thoughts on the book, and just saying that I wasn’t a fan of the book. But I still love and respect you ..."Yes I agree with you on that😊😍
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