The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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The Haunted Hotel
Wilkie Collins Collection
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The Haunted Hotel - Part 1 - Chapters I thru IV
Thankyou Deborah.'The Peerage' is Debrett's Peerage, the bible of the British aristocracy detailing who is who, their origins, wealth, connections and advice on social etiquette etc. I thought Collin's use of it was lazy writing, an early use of 'copy and paste'! Overall I find his writing style simplistic, as if he is writing for a child but perhaps those early readers of serialised novels and penny library books wanted simplicity. Such a style might also have appealed to a wider variety of readers and therefore have been commercially successful.
This sentence in Chap 1 may have some bearing on the plot:
'...when he happened to meet with me, abroad: that lady, mind, being of his own blood and family, related to him as his cousin.'
In Victorian England 1 person in 5 married within the family circle and the risks of cousin marriage became a subject of scientific discussion in the 1860s. Darwin's observations about the interbreeding of animals being 'injurious' worried him because he married his first cousin and saw illnesses replicated within his family. The madness and haemophilia within the interbred royal families of Europe were also a cause of public concern.Here are a couple of informative reviews of a book about it:
http://www.americanscientist.org/book...
https://newhumanist.org.uk/articles/2...
2. The Countess has a very physical reaction to meeting Agnes. Is this premonition or guilty conscience?"The Countess insists to Dr. Wyebrow that she has no reason to feel guilt and such is part of the reason why she herself was so distressed by the reaction she had towards Agnes.
Of course her proclaiming that she does not feel guilt, nor that she has done anything in which she need feel guilt might just be a way of trying to convince herself she was not guilty and rationalize to herself her decision.
Her reaction of such paralyzing fear does seem to extend beyond just normal guilt. Though maybe Agnese's kindness and generosity served to make The Countess's guilt greater than it would have been if Agnes had expressed anger and dislike.
I do think there might be more than just guilt in the reaction the Countess had. I think it could be possible foreboding.
Lord Montbarry does not release the Countess from the engagement. Hypothetically what would happen to her if her reputation was ruined? Is her reputation already ruined?
Considering the gossip about the Countess in the club, it seems as if she already has a fairly sullied reputation, though marriage to Lord Montberry may serve to protect her from social ostracization. As well as save her financially. We don't know much about what her situation is, but it does seem that she must be desperate to agree to go through with the marriage.
4. Why do you think Dr. Wyebrow was so affected by the Countess?
I was a bit confused/curious by Dr. Wyebrow's reaction to the countess. After learning what is said of her later in the club, was it that there was something in her countess/presence that made her appear to be somehow vile? Or did the doctor morally disprove of her actions in regards to the marriage? Or maybe it was just the strangeness of her story which left the doctor so affected.
I think perhaps the doctor was interested in her psychologically as psychiatry was a growing branch of medicine then.I note that in Chapter IV Agnes is described as being fair whereas the Countess is dark complexioned. This may indicate their good and evil characters.
I also noted that her cousin Henry held her hand, a familiarity not allowed to other suitors and this sort of familiarity and lack of the need for a chaperone was another reason cousin marriages were popular at a time when consorting with the opposite sex was difficult.
Mod
'The Peerage' is Debrett's Peerage, the bible of the British aristocracy detailing who is who, their origins, wealth, connections and advice on social etiquette etc. I thought C..."
I agree Collins has a simplistic style. It is one I have always enjoyed. Maybe there's a fondness because he was the first Victorian writer that I read. By using the Peerage, he does bring us a host of characters all at once.
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The Countess insists to Dr. Wyebrow that she has no reason to feel guilt and such is part ..."
Maybe it's both guilt and premonition. I found the Doctor's reaction very curious. It seems he develops almost an obsession with the Countess.
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I note that in Chapter IV Agnes is described as being fair whereas the Countes..."
From the physical descriptions of the Countess and Agnes, it felt like good vs. evil. In chapter 4 there was a statement that Agnes was all goodness and purity. The way she release Montberry from the engagement also seems to put her in that role.
Mod
Deborah wrote: "Silver wrote: "2. The Countess has a very physical reaction to meeting Agnes. Is this premonition or guilty conscience?"The Countess insists to Dr. Wyebrow that she has no reason to feel guilt an..."
Though if was guilt I do not think the Countess would have sought out the doctor's opinion on whether or not she was going mad.
Mod
The Countess insists to Dr. Wyebrow that she has no reason ..."
That's something I hadn't considered. Unless she just wanted a justifiable out of the marriage because she feels guilty.
"Agnes is a female given name, which derives from the Greek name Ἁγνὴ hagnē, meaning "pure" or "holy". " It also later became associated with the Latin "agnus" ("lamb").It's a name which seems much beloved of Gothic novelists to indicate pure females (M Lewis' The Monk has an Agnes, and there is Sister Agnes in Radcliffe's Mysteries of Udolpho) as well as the long-suffering Agnes Grey of Anne Brontë.
I agree with Madge about the physical differences between the blonde, blue-eyed Agnes Lockwood and the dark, glittery-eyed Countess. It seems as though the Countess bewitches the men she meets: the doctor, Lord Montbarry and the lawyer at the doctor's club, for example. She sounds altogether much more fun than Agnes.
Yes, Agnes is the goody-two-shoes so beloved of the Victorians. She has all the womanly arts too:-'There, in the corner, was her chair, with her embroidery on the work-table by its side. On the little easel near the window was her last drawing, not quite finished yet. The book she had been reading lay on the sofa, with her tiny pencil-case in it to mark the place at which she had left off.'
Boring! :)
Deborah wrote: That's something I hadn't considered. Unless she just wanted a justifiable out of the marriage because she feels guilty.."That is possible, it could be that she was hoping the doctor's prognosis might free her from the marriage. Or maybe she was looking for someone else's reassurance that she had no reason to feel guilt.
I think Collins took several shortcuts to get quickly into the story of the novel. The use of DeBrett's is one example; the coloring/naming of his female characters is another, as has been said. (Agnes Lockwood is typical angelic heroine. The dark, exotic Countess is poised for villainy.) We know their roles as soon as they appear, and can focus our energies on the mystery/ghost story. These tricks of the trade were sure to grab readers attention and signal a certain kind of entertainment. I think Dr. Wybrow is yet another example of a shortcut. He presents an awkward intro to story, and is quickly dismissed. But, the episode quickly sets the tone, and prepares the reader for events perhaps inexplicable to science and psychiatry.
I did not see the visit as an admission of a guilty conscience. The Countess may have been guilty of "stealing" Montbarry's affections, but no more. Her visit seemed, to me, prompted by an emotion which far exeded her complicity at this point. A supernatural hint of wickedness to come, perhaps, but what rational mind would accept this? Hence, the Countess suspects her own sanity. (In retrospect the foreshadowing here covered a whole lot of ground.)
Henry Westwick seems the likely hero; jilted for brother, but still constant in his affection for the sublime Agnes. He seems fairly stock as the Victorian nice guy.
Why Ferrari? Will he be an Instrument to see into workings of Montbarry household in Venice? That would give Agnes/Henry/the reader quick access to information on whatever mystery will unfold. And, because of his status , still leave details undisclosed.
Overall, it's a weird, convoluted start. But it hooked my Curiousity.
I also noticed the simplistic way in which Collins' is writing...I don't seem to remember it being that simplistic when I read The Woman in White, The Moonstone, or The Lady and the Law. He definitely isn't a strong literary writer, but on the other hand, his writing doesn't seem as mature as it was in the other three, and this is written after those books.I don't think of the Countess as being more fun. She actually gives me the creeps. Although I don't think - and I could be wrong - that she will end up being 100% evil. It seems as it is more her "brother" from the brief hints. Maybe she is being manipulated by him? Time will tell...
As for Agnes, she is a bit goody-two-shoes, but I feel drawn to her. Maybe it is in sympathy for being dumped...haven't we all been there? :-) As for Agnes wondering whether the bonds can ever be completely severed, in my humble opinion, certainly. Although it may depend on if there are constant reminders of that bond. If each go their separate ways, it is easier than if, even indirectly, a person meets up with others connected to that bond. We'll have to see how it plays out here.
I wonder how Dr. Wyebrow is going to be connected to the rest of the story. Did Collins just bring him in to demonstrate how the Countess can have a strong affect and hold on those who meet her or will he be an integral part of the story?
Lastly, I thought the Countess' reaction to meeting Agnes a bit mysterious. It could be guilt. There certainly is nothing in the Agnes we see so far that could have any "evil" affect on the Countess.
Good points Pip and we tend to forget that the book was written as a serial complete with cliff-hangers at the end of certain chapters.
P. A. When did Agnes lose it's clout as a name? To go from such esteem to such ignominity. I remember thinking Dickens was being tricky in naming the darling of David Copperfield, when I read that book as a young person. I thought it was meant to obscure her importance, rather than to highlight it. Funny.
Agnes is a religious name as the majority of names tended to be before religion lost its clout. Did non-religious names also take hold with the rise of the stars of Hollywood?
Good point about religious names losing popularity. Perhaps, as you say, Hollywood, as represented by soap-opera characters, is behind the glut of Ashleys, Tiffanys, Kylies, and Ambers. Yikes!
I dont think we are told the Countess' Christian name. Is that another aspect of her being evil? (Narona is the name of a city in Croatia, formerly Dalmatia.)Agnes is also the patron saint of chastity, gardeners, girls, engaged couples, rape victims, and virgins.
Lynnm wrote: "I don't think of the Countess as being more fun. She actually gives me the creeps. Although I don't think - and I could be wrong - that she will end up being 100% evil. It seems as it is more her "brother" from the brief hints. Maybe she is being manipulated by him? Time will tell....."I find the Countess to be rather intriguing perhaps in part because of the somewhat strange and mysterious way in which she is first introduced into the story, and than we learn that there was some rather scandalous things being said about her that do make her seem more interesting.
The relationship between her and her maybe/maybe not brother is kind of creepy.
Also when I first saw his name Baron Rivar I kept thinking barren river. I have no idea of this is intentional or not, or if I am just reading too much into things. I don't know what it might mean other than the fact that it does conjure up a somewhat ominous or very stark image.
Baron Rivar made me think of the mysterious and evil Baron R in The Notting Hill Mystery which I read recently. (It's not really a NHM spoiler - he's obviously evil from the outset). We all know barons are inherently evil (!) but what is it with the letter R?! Red?
Madge wrote: "I dont think we are told the Countess' Christian name. Is that another aspect of her being evil? (Narona is the name of a city in Croatia, formerly Dalmatia"I didn't know this Madge, and I'm sure it would have meant something to Victorian readers. Dark, Catholic, dodgy background. I think it is interesting that the lawyer gives an alternative point of view of her - maybe a hint that all is not as it seems? Not all black and white?
What keeps confusing me, and maybe irritating me because it seems such a weird ploy on Collins part, is that every time the Countess smiles, it is always both sad and cruel. I can't picture this. Sometimes the smile isn't sad, but it is always cruel in contrast to something else seen in her smile. This seems to be a constant foreshadowing, beginning with the first chapter. Clearly we are supposed to understand that the Countess has a cruel streak.
It could be her reaction to Agnes has something to do with knowing herself so well that she is aware that Agnes's innocent vulnerability will undoubtedly bring out the worst in her... her reptilian nature, so to speak. Maybe this is a shorter female version of Jekyll & Hyde. Agnes is the symbol of her undoing because her shadow-self won't be able to resist destroying the innocent. On the other hand, maybe it's just a premonition.
Ooh. I like that, JG. It puts them in direct confrontation. Makes Agnes both more vulnerable and more potentially powerful. Trying to decide if Victorian Collins would give either woman that much power.
The Countesses' smile may denote her lack of refinement. In Victorian times, a small, tightly controlled mouth was considered beautiful: 'Photographers during this era elicited the desired portrait expression by having their subjects “say prunes”. Smiles were for children, peasants, and drunks.'!Phrenologically speaking, 'a uniformly open mouth shows an open character, and too little prudent reserve, for it is generally waiting already open to freely take and freely give.'
Lol. I'm thinking of all the dour faced ancestral portraits I have.
Perhaps her smile is also intended to show the Countess as being something of a tragic figure. She does seem to have a conscious. She did not intentionally set out to wrong Agnes, and when she discovered Lord Mountbarry's prior engagement she did sympathize with Agnes, and in fact seek to get out of the engagement but was essentially blackmailed into it. So in this way she is perhaps a victim as well being mislead by Mountbary and than forced into the marriage with him. One has a feeling things will not bode well for them, particularly with the premonition of the Countess meeting Agnes.
In this way I do not perceive the Countess has being truly a villain or evil, maybe the contradictory nature of the smile, and the sadness of it, reflects that perhaps she is cruel more from necessity than pleasure or by nature.
Renee wrote: "Trying to decide if Victorian Collins would give either woman that much power"Maybe not as much power as we would understand today, but this is an author who wrote strong women. Marion Halcombe, Lydia Gwilt, Valeria Brinton, Magdalen Vanstone and even Rachel Moonstone (can't remember her surname) are all dominant characters who know their own minds. I can't think of many female characters in Dickens who show such strength - Edith Dombey and maybe Lady Dedlock.
I think Collins was also fairly open minded about social convention too; he had two simultaneous long-term affairs and was anti-marriage. Of course, that doesn't mean he saw his women as equals: I definitely need to read that biography!
Renee wrote: "I think Collins took several shortcuts to get quickly into the story of the novel. The use of DeBrett's is one example; the coloring/naming of his female characters is another, as has been said..."I think that's a very astute point. Coming to this book after reading Dickens, I was struck by how quickly Collins plunges the reader straight into the mystery - there's none of the careful atmospheric scene-setting that Dickens uses. The doctor's fascination with the Countess isn't totally believable, but is a useful plot device to get the story rolling.
I guess Collins's readers wouldn't expect a book called The Haunted Hotel to be a high-minded literary work; and perhaps the very fact that he gave it that title indicates that he intended it to be more of a thriller than anything.
Mod
It's a name which seems mu..."
The Countess is definitely a more complex character
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After I read the first couple of chapters, I couldn't help but think about what it would be like to read such a story in pieces (serialization). I definitely would have been one of the anxious readers waiting for the next piece.
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Agnes is also the patron saint of cha..."
Thanks Madge for this information. It makes Agnes' role even more apparent.
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Keep in mind, he is known for strong female chapters. The Countess and Agnes appear strong at this early stage of reading.
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Maybe not as much power as we would understand today, but this is an author who wrote strong women. Mar..."
I'm with you re the biography Pip
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Good observation about the descriptions of atmosphere and place. There has been very little of that do far.
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I rather think this one was to make money at the expense of Victorian credulity!
LOL Madge!Personally, I think Collins set out to entertain first and foremost. He was involved closely with the theatre and he dramatised several of his novels. Here's a list: http://www.wilkie-collins.info/plays_...
I think this novel is very theatrical in its set-up and the play theme will come more to the fore as we progress through the book.
Silver - I like your idea that Baron Rivar is like barren river. Nothing living or that can thrive.He also reminds me - in the brief time we see him - of a character in one of Collins' other books - there was a Baron or Count who was a villian. Can't remember which book of his though - might have been Lady and the Law.
Mod
He also reminds me - in the brief time we see him - of a character in one of Collins' other book..."
Count Fasio in Woman in White
It was Count Fosco, and he is infamous in fiction as one of those dastardly bad guys. Douglas Preston and Lincoln Child actually wrote him into one of their Inspector Pendergast novels, Brimstone... as a tribute to Wilkie Collins. (Pendergast himself is their bow to Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes)
I had a long wait at the doctor's office yesterday and got up to chapter Nine. I need to get organized a bit this morning and then I will add my thoughts for the first four chapters. :)
1. What does Dr. Wyebrow's choice to initially ignore the Countess and sneak out of his office tell us about the status of women?They are definitely seen as unworthy of his time. Although I know society was once like that (and still is in some respects) it still seems rather astonishing. It was even more odd hearing "a year or two over thirty" described as middle-aged. I guess that was true at the time, but I think of middle-aged as closer to 45-50. That may be because my female relatives live well into their 90s, though.
2. The Countess has a very physical reaction to meeting Agnes. Is this premonition or guilty conscience?
Possibly. This is a very strange book.
3. Lord Montbarry does not release the Countess from the engagement. Hypothetically what would happen to her if her reputation was ruined? Is her reputation already ruined?
If I remember correctly, no one will marry you if you were "ruined" according to society. It already does seem like her reputation is already ruined since everyone is badmouthing her and her fiance's family has been trying to stop the marriage.
4. Why do you think Dr. Wyebrow was so affected by the Countess? I think she managed to stoke his curiosity. I suspect he normally knows the answers to things, so a challenge might be interesting for him.
5. Do you find Collins' use of the Peerage a successful way to introduce a host of characters simultaneously?
It certainly saves time in introducing them all, and it was made to flow from the conversation. I've seen much worse character intros than this.
6. Agnes wonders if strong emotional connections between people who have once loved can ever be broken. What do you think?
I would agree with that. It seems like everyone remembers their first love, and people who have been in long relationships often care for their ex very deeply years after the relationship has ended. I've seen this even in cases where the relationship imploded in very dramatic fashion.
Mod
They are definitely seen as unworthy of his time. Although I know ..."
Anne, I had the same reaction to 30 something bring middle aged. That would make me elderly!
I agree with the deep love still having some kind of connection.
How do you feel about the book overall since you mentioned that it's a strange book.
Re 6: I think perhaps the experience of first love never leaves but women of those times did not have much opportunity to experience more than one love. Being jilted must have been a traumatic experience as it would leave your emotions and your reputation in tatters.Overall the childish writing spoilt my enjoyment and the repetition of the story via the Countess' 'novel' at the end was irritating and lazy IMO.
Deborah wrote: "Anne, I had the same reaction to 30 something bring middle aged. That would make me elderly! I agree with the deep love still having some kind of connection.
How do you feel about the book overall since you mentioned that it's a strange book.
."
It made me middle-aged, and I still feel young. My grandmother's are currently 95 and 86, and I'm 35, so I should have a lot of good years ahead of me.
I think it is an interesting book. I'm suspicious of all the characters, and I feel like there is a lot of foreshadowing, but I'm not quite sure of what. This book is quite different stylistically from what I usually read, and I've never read anything by this author. I'm very curious to see how it will all turn out.
Madge wrote: "Re 6: I think perhaps the experience of first love never leaves but women of those times did not have much opportunity to experience more than one love. Being jilted must have been a traumatic expe..."Madge, this thread is only the first 4 chapters, please don't include details from later in the book.
Sorry, Deborah asked for comments 'overall' so I responded. I don't think I gave anything significant away.
Madge wrote: "Sorry, Deborah asked for comments 'overall' so I responded. I don't think I gave anything significant away."Not a problem. And wasn't surprised - it's a device he's used in - at least that I know of - one of his other novels.
The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910
Books mentioned in this topic
The Moonstone (other topics)Brimstone (other topics)
The Notting Hill Mystery (other topics)
While we have no physical description, we enter the story in Victorian London. Collins, who is known for telling the story using different points of view or other vehicles, introduces us to all the main characters within these four chapters. Here are some discussion questions to get our thought processes started.
1. What does Dr. Wyebrow's choice to initially ignore the Countess and sneak out of his office tell us about the status of women?
2. The Countess has a very physical reaction to meeting Agnes. Is this premonition or guilty conscience?
3. Lord Montbarry does not release the Countess from the engagement. Hypothetically what would happen to her if her reputation was ruined? Is her reputation already ruined?
4. Why do you think Dr. Wyebrow was so affected by the Countess?
5. Do you find Collins' use of the Peerage a successful way to introduce a host of characters simultaneously?
6. Agnes wonders if strong emotional connections between people who have once loved can ever be broken. What do you think?
And so our lively discussion starts