Dickensians! discussion
This topic is about
To Be Read at Dusk
Short Reads, led by our members
>
To Be Read at Dusk - 1st Summer Read 2020 (hosted by Sara)
booklady wrote: "I confess to having trouble just keeping up with GRs due to lots of family and other obligations.."Hi Cathy, not always do we have time to dedicate to our hobbies. Just chime in if and when you can. :-)
Judy wrote: "A bit of background about one of the stories in To Be Told at Dusk. Elizabeth Gaskell felt that Dickens had stolen this story from her after she told a version of it to him - this was the tale of t..."Thank you Judy for the background about the story of the bride. :)
message 54:
by
Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Aug 02, 2020 12:08PM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
He certainly had, 8 years earlier in 1844, and wrote the travelogue, Pictures from Italy.
Milena has posted a lovely photo for us, and some facts about it LINK HERE.
Thanks Judy - what a great find! And Brenda too - I'm really glad you could join in this one :)
Robin I definitely think the frame story is the third part. It has huge significance as it is the source for the two inner stories and then contains the final "ghostly" element.
Everyone's comments are so interesting that there isn't much too add, so I will just comment on the ending.The narrator is so spooked by the stories and the setting so he decides that the boring biography of the American is just what he needs to calm his nerves.
LOL. And, we hope that wasn't a true sentiment but just a bit of fun from Dickens, but I suspect that would be a proper view of English reactions to Americans. Great catch, Rosemarie.
This was an interesting and spooky story. I really enjoyed it.As for the number of couriers (five): there is a fifth courier mentioned in the story. When Baptista has the day off at Carnival, he spends it with his friend, a Sicilian courier. In Baptista's retelling of the bride's story, the Sicilian courier is "off stage", merely mentioned in passing. Perhaps he's the fifth, silent, "off stage" courier on the bench?
If he is, what role does he play in the bride's story? He must have a purpose.....this is, afterall, Dickens writing the story. Details are important.
As a whole, this is a ghostly, spooky story. Five ghosts (the bodies in the shack?), two telling tales, while three (four with the observer on the other bench) listen. The stories told are ghostly. Ghosts telling ghost tales. Circles within circles.
The story of the bride is difficult to pin point. It may have been a strong 6th sense premonition...but of what? Is Dellombra the villain (kidnapper) or a bad boy (bride runs off)? Is it possible for the bride to disappear forever, with no word at all of her whereabouts, if she had voluntarily run off with Dellombra? It seems unlikely, which points to kidnapping and a bad end. So, ghostly premonition comes back into play.
The story of the twins is more straight forward. Twins are said to have a connection, so it makes sense that John would want to see James one last time before he dies. Not only for the sake of having the time to say their good-byes (which didn't really happen here) but also to fulfill that final promise made to each other. It's a bond and trust that is kept between them.
In that way, the stories are alike and opposite. Both stories have a bond that is fulfilled (premonition of meeting = meeting/bonding of Dollombra ; promise to see each other again = ghostly announcement). In one, the intent is evil (it appears), in the other good. In one, the premonition comes before the bond, in the other the bond comes before the premonition.
It's all rather strange and "other worldly". I enjoyed it and would lean towards the ghostly explanations. This seems to be Dickens exploring his inner Poe.
I keep picking bad times to try to read this... I fell asleep last night and then again this morning, both halfway through the bride's story... I can say I do enjoy the atmosphere Dickens creates, just by the way he describes the mansion and how the bride, husband and courier move through it.On a side note, why would a man hire a courier to come with him on his honeymoon? To me, a courier is someone who carries letters or packages to another person. Did this used to have a different meaning, closer to a valet?
I just finished reading this story and was scratching my head over some of its aspects and how to interpret them, so I went on a Google search and came across the most fascinating essay here: https://journals.openedition.org/jsse...It’s a little dense and scholarly but has some really great ideas in it! Now I have to go read the story again. :)
I looked up the definition for courier.One of the definintions is: a person who assists groups of tourists (British usage)
Thanks Rose, that makes more sense than the definition I was thinking of!
Oh no! I typed up a big response last night, but wasn’t quite finished, so I copied it, but now it’s gone! If I find time today I’ll try to remember everything!
Mod
Jenny and Rosemarie - what would you call a person who assists groups of tourists, if not a courier? I'm completely baffled!
Tadiana - thanks for the link :) I've commented a lot here already though, (maybe too much) so will stand back for Sara to comment ... on Petra's great thoughts too, if you like Sara.
Again I'm really pleased you selected this one, thank you! I'd thought it an interesting ghost story from memory, but hadn't realised quite how many levels there are to it! I love the way that you can read a story by Charles Dickens just as straight entertainment, but if you like to explore, there's always so much more :)
Jean, we call people "tour guides" in the US when they assist tourists. A courier is a person who transports packages and letters here. It's fun to see how languages change over the years!
lol. The word "courier" threw me off too. (I am in the United States.) I thought it was some type of companion. As Connie said, we have tour guides to assist tourists. But, the couriers in this story seemed to go beyond the typical US tour guide.
Mod
It's almost as if a courier is a mix of tour guide, travel agent and companion. Here too a courier is a package guy or gal and sometimes there are on bike especially in downtown Montreal; we also call them messenger (like bike messenger).
Petra - "circles within circles" describes this tale perfectly. There is the framework, which forms a circle around the entire story, and then there are circles within the stories themselves, as you have noted; the bride having a premonition of the coming of the stranger, only to see him come in truth, the twin's spirit making a trip to his brother in order to secure his brother's trip to him. Your question regarding the fifth courier is interesting and one I had not considered. Certainly the story of the bride comes directly from an absent courier to the courier who is telling the story to his companions.
Indeed, Dickens leaves us all kinds of avenues to explore, or we can take the story at face value and it is just a tale to be told before the fireplace on a wintry evening. I always love books that have that quality of working on different levels at the same moment, so that anyone can appreciate them.
Ok I’ll type up one thing right now because it got brought ho again. The couriers. I’m glad someone specified for us Americans 😂 That actually leads more into my theory that they are ghosts- maybe leading people to the “other side” or death. But I’ll have to get back to that later. Couriers. I’m picturing this on stage. First we have just the narrator. Then the German (the only courier speaking for a while). Then the Swiss (is that right? just him and the German speaking, no one else). Then the Neapolitan and then the....I forget 😬....but those 2 come in in quicker succession. I see this as a desk stage with a small light on the narrator. He’s definitely not the 5th. He’s very clear he’s on another next and not part of the 5. Then as each courier speaks he gets a light on. So one light on the German. Then 2 lights on for the German and and Swiss. And so on. And then at the end, we have the 5th courier sitting there in the dark. Sounds cool and creepy. And adds to the spooky element.
Ashley, I like your stage adaptation. Very creepy and spooky. It's interesting that a courier is a tour guide and that people actually hired personal tour guides to live with them in their holiday homes and tour them around. Very weird arrangement. It's more of a knowledgeable companion.
I rather like the idea of the five couriers on the bench being the spirits of the dead in the shack. I believe the dead were from a recent accident/avalanche? I have to go back to check that.
If so, then death was sudden and the spirits may be resting or waiting before moving on and they have time to tell their two tales. But then.....why is the Listener also waiting on another bench? is he waiting to start living?
Was the bride's story told by an absent courier to the courier telling the story? I thought the courier telling the story was the courier who experienced the situation.
Obviously, I need to pay more attention to details. LOL.
Petra wrote: Ashley, I like your stage adaptation. Very creepy and spooky. Agreed!
Ashley A budding dramatist. Nicely done.Petra No, you are right Baptista is telling the story and he is also the courier who witnessed the events. Mea Culpa. Your attention to detail is uncompromised. :)
LOL......if you knew me in real life, you'd take that back, Sara. LOL....I can be oblivious to what is right in front of me.Here's the line about the shed:
"...None of the others took any more notice of it (the setting sun) than they took of me, sitting on another bench on the other side of the convent door.…….."
The narrator is sitting on the opposite side. Perhaps another indication of the couriers being dead, the narrator alive?
"....and at the lonely shed hard by, where the bodies of belated travellers, dug out if it, slowly wither away...."
What is the "it" that the bodies were dug out of? That confused me when I first read it but then I glossed over it. I assumed that "it" was the snow on the snow that was being stained by the setting sun.
The bodies in the shed could be our five couriers. It does add a spookiness to the story.
That was very good, Ashley! Very dramatic.
The narrator is definitely removed from the couriers and unnoticed by them, which reinforces the idea of dead vs. alive, because the dead are frequently unaware of the living.I read the "it" as the snow, Petra. You are going to force me to re-read this for the third time! I have completely come around to the couriers being the bodies in the shed. They seem to be unaware of their state, which makes their own discussion of ghosts ironic.
Here's the line about the shed:"...None of the others took any more n..."
Yes! These are the little comments I typed up last night about them being ghosts. I don't know if I have time to go through the whole thing again, but I'll see if I can find something. The image of him on the other side really hits the idea home for me, as does this quote: "Five couriers, sitting on a bench outside the convent on the summit of the Great St. Bernard in Switzerland, looking at the remote heights, stained by the setting sun as if a mighty quantity of red wine had been broached upon the mountain top, and had not yet had time to sink into the snow."
It's another ambiguous sentence (at the very beginning). At first I read it as the couriers had not had time to sink into the snow (being dead and not yet buried), but upon closer inspection, it seems to mean the red wine. Though it seems it may be purposefully ambiguous- it could apply to the subject directly before it (the wine) or all the way back to the beginning (the couriers). Similar to the sentence Petra is quoting. Is he leaving these long, not very strongly structured sentences on purpose, to leave us wondering?
I also read something where the writer suggested that when the German says, "very strange things do happen without ghosts. Ghosts!" He is possibly addressing the fellow couriers. Another ambiguous structure. It could be an exclamation, "ghosts!" Or it could be him addressing them, so they listen to the coming story.
Or maybe they are spirits, or whatever we become when we leave our bodies and go to the next life, and Dickens is making the distinction that they are not like ghosts in ghost stories. I don't know if this makes sense. I'm just seeing how ghosts in ghost stories are spooky and in movies they have a certain look to them. In Christianity, I don't think many believe that this is what our spirits look like. But we do believe there is a spirit within our bodies. So maybe they are spirits, with bodies not yet burried (the ones in the shed?), but not ghosts in the way that we think of ghosts. I don't know. Just so many thoughts about this.
Then, at the end, "the ghostly mountain might have absorbed them into its eternal snows." So this goes back to my ambiguous sentence at the beginning. Maybe it WAS them not absorbed into the snow yet, and now they are. They have done their waiting and have passed on.
Also, I wonder if there is a purpose the man the onlooker is chatting with before and after these events is American.
It came to me that the two inner stories could be stories of self trust and believing in the self. In the bride's story, she had a premonition but didn't believe in herself and/or her dream to act upon it. She was persuaded by others and she lost by being abducted and, presumably, dying.....or "never being heard of again".
In the Twins' story, he believed in himself and his premonition and acted upon it. He got his reward of a last visit with his brother and, presumably, peace in knowing his brother didn't die alone.
I'm not sure how or whether the two inner stories tie into a belief in self for the five couriers. Perhaps they had to believe that there is a better place and allow themselves to be absorbed? Or perhaps the bench is merely a rest spot and a time to tell one last story.
Ashley, I like your thoughts on ghosts and their differences from horror story ghosts. A Christian spirit would not be the same as a haunting ghost. Although both are "ghosts" and "spirits" in and after-worldly way, their perceptions are different in our minds.
Ashley, I think that Dickens was being humorous when he writes about the American that talks about money. At that time, even in America, people that came from "old money" (inherited) looked down at those with "new money." People from "old money" were more refined, educated, cultured, sometimes titled, and would not be discussing their wealth in the tourist lounge. Dickens is poking fun at this man with "new money," but no refinement.
I agree, Connie, the American is there to add a bit of lightness and humor to a weighty tale. Those Brits are always laughing at our expense. lol.
I’m nor sure the couriers are aware of what they are. One of the thing that made me think that they didn’t know is that the bodies are not corrupting because of the temperature, I feel that if they see themselves (that’s pure speculation) then they wouldn’t realize because of that. The sunset on the snow, especially after the mention of the avalanche, felt like it was the end of life/day, it might not be related to the couriers, but it’s a powerful image.
Precisely, France-Andrée. I like your explanation for why they do not realize they are dead. The passage with the sunset on the snow sets the tone for the entire piece and I marked it right away.
I did wonder about that as I re-read. Why did they put on coats? And why did the observer follow? It seems they were being distinguished as 2 separate groups/things, but then he follows them. That might add to why I don't love the interpretation of the "ghosts!" exclamation I mentioned. I couldn't put words to why it didn't make sense, other than that it seemed like a stretch, especialy in the immediate context of his entire comment. I am still pondering the ambiguous sentences. Dickens is very precise in language. It seems intentional, unless this was written in his early years. I should figure that out. The Guttenburg edition says published 1905, which is obviously not when it was written. I recently read Oliver Twist and am now finally picking up David Copperfield (I missed it with you all, but am reading with the Curiosities). I have read this before. In fact I've read many of the later novels and really settle in and fall in love with the writing. He is a master. But that didn't happen with Oliver Twist. I could see the difference in his experience and maturity. I suppose his structure here (the over all structure and the specific sentences) could be due to immaturity, but it seems more intentional.
message 86:
by
Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Aug 04, 2020 11:53AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
I too very much like your stage adaptation of the story. It is so in keeping with how Charles Dickens viewed things, as pieces of theatre.
I hope you'll be with us for our next main read too, as it looks like being the one you voted for :)
I like all these thoughts, especially France-Andrée's "I’m not sure the couriers are aware of what they are."
Isn't this a popular belief, that some spirits between worlds do not know what they are, and are in a sort of limbo? Perhaps this is what Charles Dickens is describing.
Connie - Great observation about the US social strata, and "old" and "new" money. Having visited the country, Charles Dickens would have been aware of this, and I'm sure you're right :)
Here was a little different, although we did have the "nouveau riche", and those with money from trade, rather than inherited money.
I've just come across an interesting article about this story - sorry if this has been posted already! Sorry, it's quite hard to read because it is in white text on a black background (I wish people wouldn't do that). It also mentions several other ghost stories with similar themes, which sound as if they would be interesting to compare. https://www.oldstyletales.com/single-...
Judy wrote: "I've just come across an interesting article about this story - sorry if this has been posted already! Sorry, it's quite hard to read because it is in white text on a black background (I wish peopl..."Judy, very interesting! It made me think more critically of the story than I did while reading it. Do you think there is a reason Dickens chose the brothers to be twins, rather than just brothers with an age difference?
Just some thoughts on your question, Emily. Twins are common in literature when an author wants to portray a relationship as two halves of a whole, mirror imagining, or a relationship that is closer than just blood. I think that is what Dickens is doing here is challenging us to think about a communication that is shared perception and almost paranormal, a kind of telepathy.Interestingly, these things were just believed at Dickens' time, but they have been proven through DNA studies in ours. Identical twins are more likely to share thoughts, feelings, and preferences when separated from birth than non-twin siblings or fraternal twins. Since they come from the same egg that separates in utero, when one twin dies it is as if a part of the second twin has died as well.
Very interesting, Sara. I think identical twins (or doppelgangers) are also often used in Gothic stories, because there is an element of mystery to them, the idea of the two people who look exactly alike.
Absolutely, Judy. They make for a very interesting twist that would be impossible otherwise. One of my favorites is The Scapegoat by Daphne du Maurier -- Doppelgangers, not twins, but makes the plot possible.
Mod
I agree - a bit of a strain, but a good article - thank you! "By far his most mysterious ghost story" - I think we've come to realise that this week!
Sara - I really like your thoughts about a suggested "shared perception".
I love that novel too. And Daphne du Maurier's short stories often have a strong element of the mysterious, if not the down right macabre!
As does Charles Dickens, of course. He was absolutely fascinated by doppelgängers - they're all over the place in his works.
This has been a terrific read and discussion. I am not closing it off, but I did want to take an opportunity to thank everyone for participating, adding so much to the enjoyment of this story, and giving me so many other ways to think of it than I would have had reading alone. I appreciate being allowed to "host" it, so special thanks to Jean. Looking forward to our next read...a Dickens' detective story Hunted Down: By Charles Dickens - Illustrated! See you all on the new thread.
Mod
I also love The Scapegoat - this reminds me that I have been meaning to see the film adaptation from 2012, which has a great cast. Thank you for mentioning it and for leading this read so well, Sara!
Mod
Love The Scapegoat too... I had read Rebecca and was a little disappointed, but after giving her a second chance, I want to read some more by her.
Thank you Judy for the article. Reading about shared physical self corresponding to shared psychical self, like the article said, or “two halves of whole” or “shared perception”, like Sara wrote, reminded me what I thought when I read the beginning of the story. I am talking about the anecdote told by the German guide, of the Marchioness Senzanima who realises that her sister in Spain is dead because she “felt her cold touch on my back”.
It made me think about shared soul. Well, I admit that I might have been influenced by the name of the marchioness: “senza anima” means “without soul”.
Sara, this has indeed been a terrific read and discussion.
Thanks you for leading it so well :-))
Thank you for the warning about the 2012 film, Jean!
I did not see the film. I will stick with the book.
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
Little Dorrit (other topics)Hunted Down (other topics)
Rebecca (other topics)
Hunted Down (other topics)
The Scapegoat (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Charles Dickens (other topics)Daphne du Maurier (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Daphne du Maurier (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
More...
I agree with Dean that Dickens “achieves to play with your imagination and subconscious.” I always look for rational explanations when I hear stories like that, and yet I am fascinated by the supernatural. I agree with what Sara wrote in her great introduction: Dickens “understands man’s need to connect to things beyond his grasp.”
My favourite part is the story of the bride. I think that finding a man with black hair in Italy was very likely, and that our young bride was probably subconsciously attracted by the Mediterranean type, which could be a cause of great anxiety since she had just got married. That’s as far as I went with a rational explanation. But Jean’s deeper explanation was absolutely compelling: Dellombra as “metaphor for a dark desire of hers: a sexual desire. As always, a great discussion.