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Georgette Heyer's Regency World Part 2 Chapters 8-14
Mod
I was disappointed in this. There was indeed a lot of fascinating new background information on things which are frequently mentioned in passing - the gentlemen's clubs, the patronesses of Almack's, what exactly went on at Limmer's, or Cribb's Parlour, who Golden Ball and Poodle Byng were, for example; and several things that I had been hoping to find out about were also elucidated - what it meant for one dish at dinner to be 'removed with' another, what a 'round gown' was, the differences between the stage and the Mail and between all the other types of carriage.
Some of them weren't, though: I had hoped to find out what 'fubsy-faced' meant, and how the seats in a carriage were arranged when a person 'sitting forward' apparently had their back to the other passengers.
I particularly hoped to find out how a stagecoach's waybill (naming the passengers and their start and finish points) was made up before the coach set off, when there were no telecommunications and tickets were being booked all along the route. It's the kind of thing you'd think they'd need a computer for, or at least a phone - how did they know in London who was going to get on at York, and how did they know when they sold a ticket in York that there would be room for that passenger when the coach arrived? The author says a lot of interesting things about transport, but doesn't explain that.
But - there were mistakes, and those mistakes made me lose confidence in the other facts. We are told that Mrs Fitzherbert was the Prince of Wales' mistress, when she wasn't: that was why he married her, because she wouldn't sleep with him otherwise.
I've mentioned elsewhere obvious mistakes in money vocabulary, which any British person old enough to remember pre-decimal coinage would recognise immediately: 'tuppence' is not a penny, and 'ha'pence' does not mean a farthing.
On the same page, we are told that the basic weapon of the infantry was the rifle, when the whole point of having specialist rifle regiments was that all the others in the infantry were using muskets; and that Harry Smith (The Spanish Bride) was a 'brigade-major in the 95th', which doesn't make sense, because 'brigade-major' isn't a rank in a regiment, but an administrative job in a brigade. You can see in the book that Harry is not commanding troops himself, but working closely with the generals in charge of the brigade.
But I've gone on long enough for now. It's not a bad book. I'm glad to have read it, but sorry that I had to buy it because the public libraries aren't open. I don't think I would have bought it if I could have borrowed it, though I'll probably keep it in case I want to look something up in future.
It is starting to feel like a reference book that can't be relied on.
Yes, I'd agree that it's not entirely reliable, which is why I uttered my little plaint in the other thread about sources.As to the "sitting forward" question, I don't believe anyone sat with their back to other passengers except that those sitting on the top of a stagecoach would have been in a couple of rows, I think. Inside the carriage, those "sitting forward" would have sat facing toward the rear and would therefore have faced those sitting in the main seat--the way some train and subway cars are set up.
Haven't yet gotten to those glaring errors in currency names! Wow, that's bad.
Anyway, onwards & (hopefully) upwards.I enjoyed Ch 8. Lots of detail about stage & mail travel & I loved the drawings of the different carriages. Will make it easier for me to visualise them.
Sitting forward in a closed carriage meant that the person was sitting on the seat at the front of the carraige, and had their back to the direction of travel. The back seat was more comfortably upholstered and wider. (A bit like the design of a traditional London taxi even today: it has a wide back seat and two folding forward seats.) There is a great bit in The Nonesuch when Ancilla and Patience argue about who actually prefers to sit forward, and in Lady of Quality Jurby, Annis's dresser is sitting forward.
Ch 9 Loved the description about clothing - I'm sure I will refer back to this chapter often.I found one reference to Nell in April Lady a bit of a spoiler.
Mod
Yes, that's exactly what I thought, except that in Cousin Kate on the journey to Staplewood, Sidlaw, the maid, is described as sitting forward but with her back to Kate, and I'm sure I've seen the same arrangement described somewhere else too.
That's why it puzzled me, because you'd expect the seats to be facing each other, wouldn't you? I can see how in a very class- conscious society, if you were travelling with your maid you wouldn't want her sitting opposite you as if she were your equal, but I couldn't think how the seats could be arranged otherwise. If Cousin Kate had been an early work, I would have written it off as a misunderstanding on GH's part, but it's not, quite the contrary.
Curiouser and curiouser! Will have to look and see if I can find any carriages large enough for the interior seats to be arranged in rows. You'd think something that big would require a lot of horses to pull!
Jenny wrote: I've mentioned elsewhere obvious mistakes in money vocabulary, which any British person old enough to remember pre-decimal coinage would recognise immediately: 'tuppence' is not a penny, and 'ha'pence' does not mean a farthing. I got to that part in my reading today, and I think I know what happened in this case. The information on money amounts and terminology is given as a table, and it looks to me as if the first column of the table got out of whack. The term "tuppence" should be in the same row as "half a fiddle," with a comma joining them as in some of the previous rows. But this hasn't happened, the term therefore slipped down a row, and the rest of the column beneath it followed suit. Something the copy-editor should have caught, for sure, but possibly not the author's fault.
Jenny wrote: "Abigail wrote: "As to the "sitting forward" question, I don't believe anyone sat with their back to other passengers except that those sitting on the top of a stagecoach would have been in a couple..."It depends on the kind of carriage. My desription is of a closed carriage. There were also open carriages in which the main passenger(s) with the person driving the horses, facing forward, and the groom/others servant sat facing backwards. I have been looking for a link to a picture but can't currently find one.
Edit: here is a link to the Wikipedia article on dogcarts which has some good pictures of what I mean: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogcart.
Mod
Yes, I think you're right!
I appreciate these clarifications, ladies - when it’s nonfiction, I don’t consider them spoilers! Can’t spoil facts! I’m only in chapter 6, but now I know I can just enjoy, but skim the sketchy bits you’ve all pointed out as questionable, and get to the fun bits about travel and clothing Carol mentioned! I’m also enjoying the line drawings, they help me visualize for next time I read one of the novels.
Well done, Margaret! You sound like a copy editor yourself.
Abigail wrote: "Well done, Margaret! You sound like a copy editor yourself."I am … and I like to think that if they'd hired me, they wouldn't have that problem! :D
I’m a retired copy editor myself—thought I recognized a thoroughbred!
Mod
I'm pretty sure that the journey in Cousin Kate that's puzzling me would have been in a post-chaise though, since they were driving from London to Leicestershire.
Hope this works, interesting timeline on the website of Lock Hats, still in business in London: https://www.lockhatters.co.uk/heritage/
Amusing: “Men who were less wellendowed by nature in terms of well-shaped legs or broad shoulders could be helped by the tailor’s skill—along with a little sawdust stuffing or buckram padding”. Men having to rely on “falsies” - sad!
Well, there are still toupees and lift shoes! And, not to get political or anything, bronzer.
Abigail wrote: "Well, there are still toupees and lift shoes! And, not to get political or anything, bronzer."😂
Well, I finished, and enjoyed it; perhaps not suitable as a final reference for a budding writer about the period, but enjoyable as a popular history.
Susan in NC wrote: "Well, I finished, and enjoyed it; perhaps not suitable as a final reference for a budding writer about the period, but enjoyable as a popular history."You've nailed it! Nice bit of popular history. The reading list at the end is short, but does have some good titles for those who want to dig a bit deeper.
I had to keep reminding myself that this is not a history of the Regency, but a look at how GH presented that era.
Thanks! Good point! I often forget the names/details of our Heyer reads, as much as I enjoy them, so I didn’t mind if the author flubbed some of the details. Also, I’ve read so many well-researched mystery series set in the era, I feel like I’ve got a pretty good grasp of it - the drawings were helpful!
Susan in NC wrote: "Well, I finished, and enjoyed it; perhaps not suitable as a final reference for a budding writer about the period, but enjoyable as a popular history."I totally agree Susan - it's enjoyable because of the Heyer world connection, but it's not an academic text. If anyone wanted to research the real Regency World - they would use other sources but this is a very entertaining read. I found it was the sort of book you'd want to dip in and out of!!
Exactly- reading it straight through became a bit of a chore, because it seemed repetitive when read that way. I will enjoy dipping back into it, though!
Mod
Here's the paragraph in question:
"She might have said the same about the chaise which bore her so swiftly north next morning, and did indeed say that so much unaccustomed luxury was putting quite unsuitable notions into her head. Lady Broome, with a significant glance at the back of Sidlaw's bonnet, smiled, but requested her not to talk nonsense. Sidlaw, occupying the unenviable forward seat, smiled too, but sourly. However, when my lady had fallen asleep ... and she heard herself addressed in a cautious undervoice, she unbent a little. "
So they're in a chaise, with Sidlaw 'sitting forward' and Kate and Minerva can only see her back.
I'm back to this read - behind everyone but Teresa.Chapter 10 - this was interesting, but I ended up skimming as just too much minutiae. Loved finding out more about bootmaker Hoby's character though. Like Chapter 9, I am sure I will refer to this chapter when I am reading GH's books.
You're ahead of me as well--I haven't started chapter 9.
Chapter 11 - very much enjoyed this, but I was wondering (I do this when I read about dinners in GH's books as well) what happened to the leftovers. Maybe in the Prince Regent & Sir Bonamy Ripple were among the guests, there wouldn't be much left, but otherwise there must have been huge amounts of waste.
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Chapter 11 - very much enjoyed this, but I was wondering (I do this when I read about dinners in GH's books as well) what happened to the leftovers. Maybe in the Price Regent & Sir Bonamy Ripple we..."Presumably it was eaten in the servants' hall?
Charlotte wrote: ".Presumably it was eaten in the servants' hall?"I've never seen a mention in any historical about the servants being that well fed. I guess some of it could have gone to ailing tenants or indigent relatives who live near by.
Chapter 12. Sporting Life I skimmed most of this, as the sports features (cockfighting, boxing) don't interest me (I skim them in GH's books too!) The part on duelling was fascinating though. Very precise rules.
No mention of billiards or battledore & shuttlecock which some of GH's characters do play.
"She might have said the same about the chaise which bore her so swiftly north next morning, and did indeed say that so much unaccustomed luxury was putting quite unsuitable notions into her head. Lady Broome, with a significant glance at the back of Sidlaw's bonnet, smiled, but requested her not to talk nonsense. Sidlaw, occupying the unenviable forward seat, smiled too, but sourly. However, when my lady had fallen asleep ... and she heard herself addressed in a cautious undervoice, she unbent a little. "So they're in a chaise, with Sidlaw 'sitting forward' and Kate and Minerva can only see her back.
Perhaps Sidlaw was simply looking out of the window or the other way?
Ch 13. Jen turns Arabella's letter home into an example of a letter that had been "crossed." I found that interesting. I've never been able to visualise this before.The table for different money is "out" on my copy too. Jen should insist on this being fixed if this book is reprinted. It unfairly makes her look bad.
Chapter 14 the "Who's Who." I will probably just skim, even though it is short.
There's a reference at the end of "Mansfield Park", as well (which may well have been the model for this one!), where Susan's expression is said to have been screened by her bonnet, as she was 'sitting forward'.I found a website discussing carriages in Jane Austen's fiction which suggests that this would have been an extra drop-down seat on the side, somethimg like the extra seats in London taxis- I can certainly picture Sidlaw being relegated to that!
The same site also states that in the case of a four-person chaise and chariot, there were two rows of seating facing forwards, " as in an automobile", but I don't know what that was based on. Sources for pictures are given, but not for text! I had a look through William Felton's "A Treatise on Carriages", cited as source for the chaise and chariot images, but that merely talks about the width required in order to seat three abreast (four foot two). I couldn't find any mention of a four-seater chaise.
Mod
That sounds like
this one which I thought the most likely explanation too. Though it seems odd, if the seat was let out from the side, that the person sitting on it wasn't facing sideways.
Jenny wrote: "Igenlode wrote: "I found a website discussing carriages in Jane Austen's fiction which suggests that this would have been an extra drop-down seat on the side..."That sounds like
this one which I t..."
Yes, it is that one!
Goodreads wouldn't let me post the comment until I'd edited out the URL, even an incomplete unlinked one - weird.
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Ch 13. Jen turns Arabella's letter home into an example of a letter that had been "crossed." I found that interesting. I've never been able to visualise this before."
I actually adopted crossing my own letters instead of adding an extra sheet for a couple of lines, after resding about it in Heyer - no doubt my correspondents weren't grateful, but it seemed at the time like a very ingenious solution. (Helps if you switch to a different colour of pen, as well, which wouldn't have been so practical for Arabella.)
that sounds very hard to read so I googled to see images of crossed letters. I would think printing in very tiny letters would save as much space and be easier to read but maybe not.
Jackie wrote: "that sounds very hard to read so I googled to see images of crossed letters. I would think printing in very tiny letters would save as much space and be easier to read but maybe not."Printimg in very tiny letters requires more forethought!
Jenny wrote: "Though it seems odd, if the seat was let out from the side, that the person sitting on it wasn't facing sideways...."Maybe they did sit sideways, but the poke of the bonnet still hid their faces. Or maybe the instinct is to turn to face forwards if at all possible (as you normally would when sitting around the sides of a boat, for example). I know we used to screw ourselves round like anything when we were stuck sitting in a railway compartment 'back to engine', in an effort to see what was coming next.
Re: the foodIn a wealthy household the upper servants ate separately and were waited in by lower servants, so could have had the 'fancy' left overs. The lower servants food would have been more basic. In a less wealthy households the family's dinner would not have been so extensive or expensive, so even without the servants dividing by status the food would not have been very ornate.
In Cotillion there is reference to Meg Buckhaven having quite simple dinners when she doesn't entertain, and once you have a butler, housekeeper and lady's maid the 'nice' food could have been used up before the lower servants had a look in. Similarly, lady's maids often benefitted from being given their mistress's old clothes, it was seen as a perk of the job - even if some went to poorer relatives. Just as the cook benefitted from selling scraps to the rag and bone men.
Also 150 years later (!) in Dorothy Sayers 'Strong Poison' a key plot point is that the leftovers from upstairs are finished off downstairs in a middle class household. A different time and context, but it does suggest how a household with servants functions.
Ah wrote: "Re: the foodIn a wealthy household the upper servants ate separately and were waited in by lower servants, so could have had the 'fancy' left overs. The lower servants food would have been more b..."
That does make sense. :)
This is Jen's example of a crossed letter.
& I've finished. Appendix 2 (about newspapers & magazines) seems more like another chapter. Most interesting.It was an interesting read, but small errors would make it unsuitable to rely on for serious reference. I hope Jen has enough clout now to get that money table fixed. :/
Your maid can sit outside on the box with the driver if you choose but it's wise to have your maid with you in the carriage should you need smelling salts or a chamber pot. I'd never leave my house. I get motion sickness. You also need your maid with you as chaperone in case you're traveling with men.
Mod
But in a post-chaise, there isn't a box or a driver - the horses are controlled by postilions, riding on them.
The big feature of a chaise is that, thanks to the absence of a box and driver, you get a front 'windscreen' with a direct view down the road ahead.Well, apart from the horses and postboys immediately in front.
Mod
Well, apart from the horses and postboys immediately in front..."
And whoever's sitting forward! :-)
If you want to get super detailed about what to wear, Dress in the Age of Jane Austen: Regency Fashion will satisfy that need to know every little detail complete with primary sources, footnotes and bibliography.
No spoiler thread for this read as this book is non fiction.