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Forty Thousand in Gehenna
Group Reads Discussions 2020
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"Forty Thousand in Gehenna" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*
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I think it’s another shining example, in the tradition of the great Ursula K. Le Guin, of using SFF literature to explore language, culture, sapience/sentience, colonialism, and gender politics in a really meaningful and exciting manner. I never knew where the story was headed, and I was deeply impressed that she was able to telescope out to tell the stories of communities and zoom in on the personal stories of individuals in those communities. I loved it.
I'm not quite finished yet but I do have a couple observations now that this thread is open.I found myself struggling a bit to get my bearings between sections after a time skip, especially the 100 year skip between... I think part 6 and 7. And yet I've still managed to get drawn in completely every time.
The concept of watching a society develop through moments in its history reminds me a lot of Children of Time, but in a more introspective way, and it really has me eager to see how things play out.
Cherryh does such a brilliant job of having Gehenna society evolve in a way that feels so organic and natural for the planet and the people abandoned on it. Her world building and cultures are always perfection!I will agree with Amanda that I sometimes felt a little disoriented after the time jumps. The naming conventions made it a little hard to remember that we'd jumped x amount of years and gone through several generations when I was reading about many of the same names again.
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My few complaints are that I still really don't know what the pattern is, what the Weirds are and how the calibans communicate. I somewhat enjoy the fact that none of those are resolved because it lets me fill in my own blanks but I am not smart enough to come up with anything that makes sense.
I also struggle with Cherryh's writing. I can't really describe what I don't like about it but I feel like her spare writing is too spare and the reader is forced to read between too many lines.
Again, I am impressed with the society she came up with, the interactions were nuanced and very real feeling.
@Hank as much as I love her writing, I can absolutely see that her style won’t work for everyone. For me, her spareness has an almost distancing effect that nevertheless draws me in because she seems to have so much confidence in her approach. And because I buy into her characters’ behavior. But I understand why that spareness leaves you a little cold. She’s truly one of those authors I would wholeheartedly recommend, but would have zero expectations as to whether or not the book would be enjoyed by the person to whom I’m recommending it. And that’s sort of a strange thing for me to feel.
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Her character building, as well as her world-building, all fits organically into the story, which I love.
This was my first time reading Cherryh. I was fascinated by her worldbuilding, particularly the nuances between the different types of aliens and the way the humans struggled to understand the dynamics, and what it took (generations and distance) to get even some little glimpse of understanding. There was such a sense of fracture (all the different ways the humans integrated or not, for example), but there was still a strong sense of underlying cohesion in the worldbuilding for me, even when I couldn't puzzle out the details on my own. I can't say I really enjoyed reading it until the last sections with McGee--I think because McGee and I shared motivations, wanting to understand with humility and open-mindedness--but I'm glad I read this.
Content warning: sexual violence! Okay am I missing something? I’m not through the whole book but there was just a scene of gang rape, not graphic, but I was not expecting that at all, especially given the pushback against Shards this month’s poll. Maybe I misread the scene? I’m confused. I’ll keep at it, it just caught me out of left field and read a bit like rape as plot device.
I will say that Cherryh seems to be especially interested in depicting sexual assault, since it occurs or is alluded to in three of the four books of hers I’ve read. It hasn’t felt tropey or salacious to me, though; there are always consequences, and both the perpetrators and victims are drawn with a rare complexity.
I liked the depth and width of the story. At the beginning I assumed it will be a story of the first generation of born-men azi, the problems of internal enslavement.I think the very concept of azi is quite strong: while many SF writers, esp. after The Population Bomb assumed that the main problem will be too many people, in Cherryh's union the opposite is true - too few people to start a colonization / terraforming, so azi were vat-born and tape-taught. At the same time she doesn't go an easy way of just another slavery - while azi (see Cyteen) aren't citizens by default, they are not slaves, at least in historical analogues.
Discuss. More later
Honestly, to me (and granted this without any context beyond this book), the role of the azi feels darker than slavery in a way. Enslaved but not be force, seemingly bred/engineered to be, if not subservient than at least suggestible, and raised to be, essentially "happy slaves". This is noticeable in how Jin 1 remained loyal to the born-men throughout his life, and why the children began to form stronger connections to the calibans with no tapes to teach/influence them.
Amanda wrote: "Honestly, to me (and granted this without any context beyond this book), the role of the azi feels darker than slavery in a way. "I agree. This is a moral dilemma: should we let a colony (and culture/civilization) fell due to the lack of people who support it or should we use people like machines to keep it
Hank wrote: ".I also struggle with Cherryh's writing. I can't really describe what I don't like about it but I feel like her spare writing is too spare and the reader is forced to read between too many lines..."This is my main complaint. I compare the structure to that of Semiosis, which was a joy to read, to this which felt like hard work, and this fails, imo. Sure, lots of brilliant concepts and world-building, but even though I read carefully, shedding as many preconceptions as I could, I still feel like there are too many things the author knows but is keeping secret from us. And I never cared about any of the characters except Magee because I never got to know them.
As far as the sapience of the browns and the patterns and the ramparts and the undermining of the base, I knew as much at the introduction of each idea as I did at the end. Of course the browns are different from the grays, and of course they are sapient, but in an alien way, and of course they are making their objections known to the starmen by undermining the Base and making walls, etc., and of course the patterns of stone have meaning. Why the starmen couldn't figure that out bewilders me... some ordinary citizens of any society are obtuse but trained exploration teams?
Cheryl wrote: "As far as the sapience of the browns and the patterns and the ramparts and the undermining of the base, I knew as much at the introduction of each idea as I did at the end.."Closer to the end we find out that patterns are at least sometimes are maps and thus communicate what and where is happening and there is a problem of adding 'when' to the picture, but it can be done
Yes, conditioning the azi to be happy with their lot is one thing. It's slavery of mind & spirit as well as of body. At least these 40K were going to 'freed' according to plan, it seemed. They were to weaned off the tapes, and to give birth to born-men, and to create a world for their descendants to live in. Squicky, but not as horrible as some dark speculative fiction.The dilemma of whether to 'interfere' with the lives of the descendants of humans, as if the Prime Directive applies to Elai and Jin 12 (or whatever number he is) and their people is a weird one. I don't think the situation developed in a plausible manner, though... iow I believe it's unlikely that the born-men & starmen would have let the situation get to that point, because I don't see how they could have been, as I said above, so obtuse.
But ok, given the premise that somehow human civilization loses track of a under-equipped colony, and it develops in its own direction and becomes so divergent before re-contact that those trained in xenology have a better chance of getting to know them than anthropologists do, then what? Should they be rescued or rehabilitated? Do they want that? If they're struggling, should they be given aid? Does the Prime Directive apply?
Yes, Oleksandr, you're right, we learn some details of what the patterns are capable of communicating, but certainly I thought it was easy to guess from early on that the answer would turn out to be "quite a bit" at least. :)
Cheryl wrote: "Yes, conditioning the azi to be happy with their lot is one thing. It's slavery of mind & spirit as well as of body. At least these 40K were going to 'freed' according to plan, it seemed. They were..."In Cyteen it is suggested (or possibly stated as a fact) that Union seeded Gehenna with its colonists, and abandoned them, to deny Alliance the planet when their ships discovered it. Even if Alliance did try to assimilate the 'natives' they would not be easily digestible, being always different.
Rosina, the background is actually in this book, in the documents in the beginning. But thank you. However, I do not understand what you're saying in your second sentence. Which 'natives' do you mean, calibans or descendants of azi? And are Alliance and Union not both humans? (I assumed it was a political not a 'racial' split... maybe I missed something.)Yes, thank all of you who have read Cyteen or other books in this setting, as I haven't (and I have no interest in, I confess).
It's definitely an intriguing book. Both cover and content read older, to me. That is to say, it feels more like stories from the Golden Age, to me. Not in a bad way, but rather, we're reading Cherryh's take on classic themes. Very much concept or idea-based, with character, setting, and plot in supporting roles.I mean, for example, by the time she wrote this, hadn't we explored the idea of an intelligence so alien that it would be difficult to recognize it? Since I'm not fond of her style nor familiar with her 'world' I know I missed something, but what? What did she share that was new & worth exploring?
I appreciate the homage this pays to two previous masterworks. Of course Caliban and Ariel are characters in "The Tempest," but I'm sure you can recall that "Brave New World" owes its title to that same play. So, thinking about Huxley's creche babies, soma, caste system, etc... what parallels do we see in Cherryh? I mean, besides of course Jin & the Tapes vs. the elite Born-Men.
This was a tough one for me to rate as it felt like several different books combined into one volume (some more enjoyable than others). I loved the section with MacGee and Genley's rivalry, but I found other sections tedious. I felt more distance between the author and the characters than I'm accustomed to, like we were scientists observing the situation from afar. I never truly felt like I was in any of the character's heads. Also, as Hank said, the concepts of the Calibans still felt mysterious to me at the end, but perhaps that's part of the point, they are an alien race and their thinking is not conducive to human review.It's been awhile, but I was wondering about the influence of McCaffrey here with her popular series about colonists who go to a planet without metal for technology where humans form bonds with dragons. This was certainly more serious in tone and aim than that, but still I saw some parallels.
Overall, I admire the ambition of the novel. and it had enough depth to it that I gave it 4 stars, even though I'd probably be less likely to recommend it than other 4 star reads as one has to slog through some 2-3 star portions to get to the 5 star stuff at the end, in my opinion.
I had to give up about 200 pages in (a bit more than halfway). There is too much mysterious stuff going on and the plot is going too slowly for me to want to stick around for the reveals....if there ever are any? From reading this thread, it seems the mysteries of the calibans are never satisfactorily explained. I'd like to be spoiled about the rest of the book, if anyone can summarize the last half.
I finally finished! It wasn't a struggle really, Downbelow Station was much harder to get through, in my opinion. In fact, I really enjoyed it, but it was a bit bewildering in places. I thought the hereditary names was actually pretty clever in giving us a hand-hold as to where these new characters fit in and were coming from. It was like a built in backstory, which didn't have to be info dumped. Cherryh's style is so, so spare. And it's worse even with the new native human Gehennan's in an attempt at a sort of dialect plus the fact that they communicated with sign language and patterning as well. I thought the Weirds were an interesting bridge to the calibans. To me, it seemed Cherryh was saying they were an unknown direct side effect of azi reproduction and if the azi's abandoned on the planet had continued to have tape and their children had had it as well, the Weirds probably wouldn't have developed. As it was, their lack of communication is what gave them that connection to the calibans and thus a means for the whole society to stabilize and survive. Otherwise, I think the calibans would've undermined all the settlements and killed everyone. As it was, the Weirds "saved" the rest of the Gehennans and made a Base untenable.
So, do people think that it was the brown calibans that brought about the destruction of the Styxside settlements (as was theorized by Elai)? But why? Is Cherryh saying because the female led society was better for calibans (because they didn't eat the grays) or because they were less war-like and understood the calibans better?
On the whole I liked it. Liked the world concept. The thought of a society breeding clones to do labor is grotesque. I'm glad they came out on top eventually.The non-interference policy by the Alliance was reminiscent of Star Trek to me. It doesn't work. Just the fact they are there and seen is an influence and interference.
Thanks so much for your thoughtful engagement with the book, Diane. I just have so much admiration for the complexities and ambiguities that Cherryh brings to bear in her work. I always feel like she is really wrestling with some very compelling big questions, and is willing to explore them in unique and absorbing ways. Ellen, I thought she was working off of age-old questions about colonialism and anthropological work in her examination of the scientists’ interaction with the “native” azi societies. And yes, it did have a Trek vibe in certain respects. I wholeheartedly believed in how the various investigators wound up getting entwined with their respective subjects, and I especially loved the hard-won respect gained between the women.
Diane, your last paragraph, 'yes' to all of your questions, imo.
Anthony, I agree with you. And yet, it is possible to enjoy this story as just a good story. And yes, to the respect that grew between McGee and Elai. There was also collaboration between them, they helped each other. It was telling that the men over on Styxside had a very hierarchical relationship based on power. Elai's power was derived from Scar (her brown caliban) and she knew it. The even bigger brown that arrived after Scar "left" was an amazing endorsement, I thought.
Amanda wrote: "I'm not quite finished yet but I do have a couple observations now that this thread is open.I found myself struggling a bit to get my bearings between sections after a time skip, especially the 1..."
Finally getting to replying in this thread and I found myself thinking about Children of Time, too, Amanda!
I found this book really compelling, even though I would have wished we could have stayed with some of the characters for longer. But even so, as other people have pointed out, Cherryh has a real knack for introducing fully-formed characters that don't just feel like types in a chain of generations.
I found the azi and how they were treated extremely chilling - and I assume there's more on them in some of the other books in this universe, which I hope to get to soon.
I found the way the societies developed really fascinating and enjoyed the debate between Genley and McGee carried out through the memos and reports. It was fascinating to watch both of them get more and more entangled with the respective groups while also trying to maintain the "detached observer" function and I think the book shows how absurd the assumption is that you can be a detached and objective observer in these situations.
I also really enjoyed the way we learned more and more about Calibans, without ever getting a full explanation about how they communicate, etc. That felt very true to a first (or second, third, etc.) contact situation with an alien race. And Cherryh managed very well to weave in human hubris with regard to lifeforms they have never encountered. (Especially with regard to the assumption that Calibans are "just" animals.)
As for one of your questions, Diane, regarding whether we're supposed to believe that the Calibans brought down the Styxside towers...I could see that. Maybe they were waiting to see which side would prevail to then be able to consolidate their influence on that society? Though I also think, since we see this from McGee's point of view, this might be a case of "the victors always write history", so it's probably very colored by her opinions and experiences. So the assumption that the Cloud-side society was better is heavily colored by her perspective. Just like Genley's opinion about the Styxsiders was.
I’m so happy this book has provoked so much thoughtful discussion. @Mareike, both Downbelow Station and (even more so) Cyteen deal extensively with azi characters in truly fascinating and disturbing ways. I highly recommend both books, although as with a lot of Cherryh’s work, the response can be mixed for those who are put off by her unusual approach.
I somehow missed your response until now, Anthony! Thank you for the recommendations! I'll definitely give them a try. I did like the....sparsness? of Cherryh's prose and she's clearly built a fascinating (and disturbing) world so I'm looking forward to diving back in eventually.
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Ryan, hard to summarize the rest of the book...it's basically (and yet poorly summarized as) a 300 year timeline where we simultaneously see the planet progressing in its own way with a new alien sapience, its own cultures and progress etc., and the "40,000 foot view" where outside observers are trying to decide if they can start integrating these people into their alliance, and what their role is as the more technologically advanced society. They get there eventually.
I agree with folks on all sides here. I thought the world building and the concepts/scope were incredible, and that the things we see make sense given how they're portrayed, but I never quite got why we saw things this way.
As mentioned above. the caliban gang rape of the born-man didn't make sense to me...was it ordered therefore by the calibans? I wish we'd had a reason for this because it doesn't seem to continue, and in fact the Weirds as the sort of human-caliban intermediary role shifts so much that it's hard for me to follow. Perhaps that's intentional, but it's hard not to have this feel then like the calibans were turning folks against their own people, but we don't really spend much time on that--whenever the calibans get proper mad at the colonists, they just slaughter them with seeming little issue.
Same with other things through the book, what was the boat element? Why did Alliance feel the need to swoop in at all? Why wasn't this a violation of some Union treaty? Why was Styxside so different from Cloudside? We're led to believe most of the issue was because Jin was a tyrant, but the idea was supposed to be that they'd diverged over generations, not just one reign, I thought? If not, then I didn't understand where this section.
I liked the scientist part, but agree that it felt a bit rudimentary and heavy-handed. I'm chalking this up to the times, and that Cherryh thought she really had to rub our noses in it to get her audience (at the time) to see how destructive both sides were.
I'm a bit curious what folks think of the gender aspect, too. On the one hand Cherryh, through Mc(a)gee makes us ask ourselves if gender stereotypes can possibly be genetic or if it's just "folklore" that we share with our young. But on the other hand all of the women are cold, generally dangerous only to each other, shrill, and yet somehow are supposed to have led a culturally more peaceful (and also under-developed???) society. There were a lot of incongruous moments there for me.
Did you-all know Gehenna is an actual place? And also the name of the place has become to mean a sort of Jewish Hades kinda mythical place? I don't have interest in sorting out the details now, but I certainly would have benefited from knowing that back when I read the book!
Cheryl wrote: "Did you-all know Gehenna is an actual place? "I knew it as a concept, even if I haven't instantly linked the English name to it
Why am I not surprised? Readers of more than one language tend to just plain know more.... Good for you! :)
Cheryl wrote: "Why am I not surprised? Readers of more than one language tend to just plain know more.... Good for you! :)"I guess not actually more, just different :)
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Downbelow Station (other topics)Semiosis (other topics)
The Population Bomb (other topics)
Cyteen (other topics)
Sorry, I'm behind so my discussion prompts are limited:
1. What are your overall thoughts?
2. What did you think of the concepts Cherryh used in this work?
3. Strengths? Weaknsses?