Outlander Series discussion
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echo - what are your thoughts so far?
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Marie
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Oct 26, 2009 07:40PM
Hey, Anybody wonder why Fergus named his first child Germain? Some sub-conscious memory related to a shadowy figure from his early childhood named Comte St. Germain? Only a coincidence?
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Marie wrote: "Hey, Anybody wonder why Fergus named his first child Germain? Some sub-conscious memory related to a shadowy figure from his early childhood named Comte St. Germain? Only a coincidence?"Wow, that would be quite a coincidence. Not out of the realm of possibility, though, especially for DG. I wonder how she keeps all this stuff straight?
Aren't all the books like that. If she hadn't met this person, this other person wouldn't have been saved. Like the stones had all sorts of reasons for her to go to the past besides just meeting Jamie. All these different lives intersecting.
Marie wrote: "Hey, Anybody wonder why Fergus named his first child Germain? Some sub-conscious memory related to a shadowy figure from his early childhood named Comte St. Germain? Only a coincidence?"That raised a flag for me at the time too. Since I only discovered this series about 6 months ago I read all the books straight through and remember thinking "If they make Fergus related to that awful French St. Germain guy it will just be too much."
'Cause you know the time traveling, stone passing, centuries spanning love story is just a run of the mill everyday kind of thing ;~)
Beth wrote: "You're one of the few people that have mentioned about not believing that Claire would of left Jamie in Scottland to go back to America."It made sense to me.
1) Her grandson was very ill and might not live without surgical intervention. Given what medical care was at the time, let alone surgery, its no wonder that all involved wanted Claire to take care of him.
2) There was nothing she could do for Ian Sr. and as family oriented as he is/was he would surly understand the need for Claire to treat her sick grandkid.
3) It would remove "Leghair" from their lives for good while
4) ensuring Joanie's happiness and desire to become a nun. Jamie considers both girls his daughters and Claire does have a good step-parent type relationship with Marsali so it would reason that she would have similar feelings/views on Joan.
5) Family is very important to Jamie and Claire. Jamie is torn between his family in Scotland and his family in America. It makes sense that they would divide and conquer in order to take care of their family: Jamie stays in Scotland and Clair heads back to America. I could see them being worried about a sea sick Jamie heading back to the US by himself, but maybe they thought he could travel with the guy who carrying the printing press or some such thing. In any case, that was taken care of by Jenny coming with him - and who knows maybe he had an idea that Jenny wanted to travel a bit and see her youngest son's home, his farm, and meet his new bride.
Just my two cents.
Quirkygal, I agree with you. That all made sense to me too. I can't imagine Jamie leaving Jenny and Ian before Ian has passed away and I can't imagine either one of them allowing little Henry Christian to die without offering some help. It really seemed like the only thing to do.
Leslie wrote: "Quirkygal, I agree with you. That all made sense to me too. I can't imagine Jamie leaving Jenny and Ian before Ian has passed away and I can't imagine either one of them allowing little Henry Chri..."I still feel that Claire would NEVER leave Jamie and Jamie would never want Claire to leave. We are talking about a long journey across an ocean. They spent 20 years apart I can't see putting an ocean between them. WHY on earth did Diana do this? :-(
No, I just don't feel Claire or Jamie would of taken the chance of losing each other. Look at all the terrible things that happened on other ocean journeys.Claire could of waited the few weeks in Scottland with Jamie. Ian was very ill, and they know it was just a matter of a few days or weeks for him to pass. This happening in the book was one of many times I thought to myself, WHAT!!!!!
I think the real issue is that Jaime and Claire have a crappy life! They're always making ridiculously hard choices. I guess it balances out having the amazing love affair. :)
ChristinaRae wrote: "I think the real issue is that Jaime and Claire have a crappy life! They're always making ridiculously hard choices. I guess it balances out having the amazing love affair. :)"I'll take that life with Jamie. I agree that they are always facing such adversity. This makes each time they are together so intense not knowing or in Claire's case knowing what is to happen next.
But sending Claire to America with out Jamie is not even in the realm of possibility for me. Jamie was so desperate to hang on to Claire in Voyager. He would never let her go. Never and I don't care what DG wrote I know my Jamie he he.
Kelly wrote: "ChristinaRae wrote: "I think the real issue is that Jaime and Claire have a crappy life! They're always making ridiculously hard choices. I guess it balances out having the amazing love affair. :..."What I love about Jamie and Claire is that even though they have had a hard life and always have to make ridiculously hard choices, they never whine or complain about it. They accept that life is hard and really bad things happen and while it stinks and they hate some of the things they have had to do- they aren't terribly bitter.
I concur with Quirkygal and Leslie: the choice to separate for a brief amount of time was hard but necessary. Now where I'm not believin' it is where John just ups and marries Claire and then before you know it they're "together". That was all a bit fast for me and left me shaking my head. If she had spend more time developing that scenario I might have bought it a little easier.
And using LJG as his means of escape at gunpoint.... not sure Jamie would have done that either.
So happy that Ian has found love, though! Don't you just adore Ian?
But I'm wondering how damaged Claire, Jamie and John's threesome is going to be in the next book. Like John implied, sex is something visceral, and that changes the whole game.
Sheri, I wish she would have developed the marriage between Claire and LJG also. It seemed awfully abrupt. I would have liked to have known more about Claire's spying activities. Where is she getting information, who is she passing it on to? How did she get started? How did the English find out about her. Also, a little more about her feelings of Jamie's death would have been helpful in explaining her despair. One minute she is contemplating suicide and the next she is at a party with LJG. Very strange.
Beth wrote: "No, I just don't feel Claire or Jamie would of taken the chance of losing each other. Look at all the terrible things that happened on other ocean journeys.Claire could of waited the few weeks in..."
i agree as i mentioned in my first post here. Well actually I could get past the decision if it were put to us in a way that we could buy... like for instance where was the conversation that should have taken place between Ian (young) and Jamie about how Ian should protect his aunt because Jamie was trusting him with the most precious thing in his life. Perhaps a conversation like that mixed with a little banter between the characters about how this was a hard choice to make but necessary... then MAYBE I could have bought it... but as it was... they just decided and a few pages later Ian and Claire are in America... there was no crying through the night on the ship or anything that made it real. Thats what I meant earlier about how it felt rushed at the end... pieces of the story seemed left out (the voyages being part of that) and feelings were not so vivid as usual. From the beginning of the series it is made abundantly clear to us that CLAIRE is the MOST IMPORTANT thing to Jamie... and he almost lost her at sea once when one ship just took her... i dont think he would have risked her going even though i can see her feeling compelled to go!!! The whole scenario should have been much more heartwrenching and we should have been left understanding that decision and agreeing with it without picking it apart. Hey Diana is very good... everyone overlooks things now and then... but i really feel that the end of this book was not written the same way that she normally writes... her style was different in the characters motives and feelings... there was not as much description!!!
But all in all i think this will make for an incrible next book...lol!!!!
I haven't finished Echo yet and I'm trying not to read the other comments b/c I don't want to know what happens. I will say that I'm having LOTS of trouble getting through the book. Every time I turn the page to see one of those 4 pages letters from Willam or JG, I groan out loud. Also, I did accidentally read some comments about J&C separating and then Jamie dying so my question is "Is it worth finishing?" I don't know if I want to force myself through the rest of the book only to be heart broken by the end. Advice???
Shannon, I voiced an earlier concern, but it's well worth it. While I wasn't thrilled with some of the choppy segments at the end, and I agree the poofy "Britishness" of the LJG and Williams segments left me wanting at times, it IS worth reading. I ended up giving it a definite thumbs up. I just scanned some of the more trying historical segments (and soaked up others - you could actually smell the fear at the retreat at Ticonderoga - well written!).
I just got my book from the library last Wednesday before I left on vacation. Talk about a great excuse to read on an airplane if there ever was one. I'm currently on page 318 and loving every minute of it. Will get back to you on my take later...
Hello all! Okay...I need help, too! I am in the very, very start of Echo and bored with the William stuff in the start....I am scared to skim as I know with DG there are so many good details you can miss if you skim, but I am BORED......can I skim? Will it get better? Is this just background building for us to get to know William....is there a significant point other than that? I am normally SO immediately immersed into the books and this one has brought me to a serious halt! Help!
Hang in there, read it all; William is a slow burn, in my opinion, but you will want to know him. It does get better later on, and you wont want to miss any of C&J or Rog & Bree.
I agree William is a slow burn...I kept thinking throughout the book 'oh, for goodness sake! he is way to woosy to be Jamie's son, but then at the end he redeems himself, so hang in there for William. I also must say I was disturbed with the loose ends all over the place and I don't buy the need for 'cliff hangers' to the extreme. I have a lot to say about Claire and the whole LJ thing but don't want to put in 'spoilers' for those still reading. I do love Rachel and look forward to knowing Ian and Rachel as a couple better...loved the line "thee are wolf, but thee are my wolf". For those struggling through the first 300+ pages..enjoy because the last 100 will throw you into a tail spin..took me weeks to finally come to grips with it and stop being mad!
Barbara wrote: "I have been such a rabid fan. Read each book again every time a new one came out. Think Gabaldon is a brilliant writer. Aside from the rich details and descriptions, the characters have always a..."
Thanks for your comments Barbara, I have the exact same thoughts. It was not so much the act (as yucky as it was) it was so out of character for both characters..I'm not sure I can reconcile it with the Claire and LJ I have come to know. I hope it is all a bad dream...but doubt that it is...it happened and I hope I can forgive and believe Claire when she starts swearing undying devotion and love to Jamie. He is going to be sooo hurt and wounded..he didn't need that after he has been through...I thought!
Thanks for your comments Barbara, I have the exact same thoughts. It was not so much the act (as yucky as it was) it was so out of character for both characters..I'm not sure I can reconcile it with the Claire and LJ I have come to know. I hope it is all a bad dream...but doubt that it is...it happened and I hope I can forgive and believe Claire when she starts swearing undying devotion and love to Jamie. He is going to be sooo hurt and wounded..he didn't need that after he has been through...I thought!
Exactly right, Mary. And I'm not sure I'm over being mad YET!
Can I just ask, since I've been thinking about this awhile, what does the title mean? I mean, after reading the book I wondered what 'an echo in the bone' meant afterall in relation to the contents of the book. I don't get it. What's so 'echoey' in the bone?Oh, and it's months later and I still hate this book. Especially Lord John. He's best taken in small doses. Like a laxative.
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Chantal wrote: "Has anyone figured out who/what is "Billy Jack", that is referred to on page 284 of Echo? I have tried to find it on Google but keep getting references to the 1971 film. "I think the Billy Jack referred to in Echo IS the one from the movie that comes up when you do a web search. Apparently in the movie, the character fights bigotry and injustice...that seems to fit in with what Jem is going through at school.
wasn't the frase echo in the bone mentioned in an earlier book something to do with blood ties or something,with master Raymond in france maybee I'm wrong. As for the Clair and LJ situation I agree it happned way to fast, when I read it I was so mad. At the same time I told myself that Clair was verry drunk, an emotional reck and dreaming that it was Jaime. I don't know what to feel about it for an ultimate love like Jaime and clair have I dont think she would do it. Not so soon, maybee months after thinking he was dead but so quickly not sure. I was dissapointed in Clair and I could have forgiven her for the one transgression when they woke up and realized what happend and talked as friends. I starting to think ok that will never happen again then a while later she let him use her hand remember I was just about sick with grief for Jaime I kept yelling at my book he's not dead you idiot stop it.And i thought she would have more faith than that.The fortune teller did tell him he had nine lives, and she knows from personal expierence that it is immposible for Jaime to die nothing's got him yet a mere ocean wouldn't stop him from getting back to her. I understand why she married LJ to save everyone but all the rest was just sickning I'm still mad about it and it's been monnhs since I finished Echo
This is my take on the Claire/LJG situation:Claire had just lost the love of her life(or thought she had)
LJG had just lost the love of his life(or thought he had)
And let's not forget the fact that Claire's life was in danger, and LJ probably felt that her safety was the last gift he could offer Jamie.
They were both in an exceptional amount of emotional pain and needed an outlet to express it, so they used eachother to do so.
Whether we, or they, like it, Claire and LJG are bound to one another by their love of Jamie.
'echo in the bone' was mentioned a couple of times in a couple of books. But that still has naught to do with this book as a title. What's the echo in the bone here?And for pete's sakes LJ is a gay man. I don't care how grieved they were, his natural inclination is not to seek sex with a woman, even Claire, when he's drunk and grieving. Bonking Claire is NOT going to remind him of Jamie. That was a hokey plot twist that was completely unbelieveable to add angst to the story and I didn't buy it for one second. Drunk or no. And then for he and Claire to lounge about naked the next morning observing each other? Oh, mama please. The only believeable part was the fart.
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I agree i just put myself in those shoes and I dont think I could do it so quickly after loosing my husband i would feel like I betryed him or something...but who am i to judge that's the great thing about these books is you stop thinking about them as fictional characters and you get emotionally tied up in them and I know it was all about Jaime that was clear I just think it was too soon but I guess you don't really understand that kind of grief untill you've lived it i will forgive clair and john as Im sure Jaime is going to if not john would already be dead
Ultimately I think it was necessary to the plot(Well, the marriage anyway).If Claire hadn't been with LJG when Jamie came back, William would still be in the dark with regards to his true parentage.
Kelly wrote: "I just read a review for Echo. They said they would recommend reading the Lord John books if you haven't because there are quite a few characters that were only in Lord John and not the Outlander ..."I heard the same thing. I've not read the Lord John books yet but I'm gonna have to. I didn't like Echo as much as the others because she just placed scenes together haphazardly to me anyways.
Janice wrote: "I bought the book Tuesday morning at 9am...finished at 10:47pm on Wednesday. Could NOT put it down! I'm angry about a few things...won't spoil anything in case people haven't finished it...and th..."I completely agree! This one felt like she rushed through and left out way to much information in between. I feel she put the scenes together with out the normal "filler" she usually uses to describe things.
Crystalmk wrote: "exactly how I feel. I don't really know him and I guess that is my fault for not reading his series. I guess the real shock was that so much of the beginning of this book was to do with him and his..."lol. I think DG did this on purpose; wrote them this way so we would have to go out and get the LJG series in order to know what was going on in the Outlander series. Very well played Diana! :)
Marie wrote: "Never would I have imagined being disappointed in the new Outlander book! I've never been part of an online discussion group before either, but I just have to vent! (Feeling the need to make known..."I couldn't agree with you more! I was sorely disappointed in Echo and if she writes the next two like that I may not read them.... well can't say that as i love the story. :)
I think that LJ is DG's 'pet' character.
In response to ChristinaRae "I think that LJ is DG 'pet' character" that is true. I read somewhere that he (LJG) was her (Diana) favorite after Claire and Jamie.
Me again. The Lord John Books are good, just not the same caliber of literature the Outlander series is. And only a few hundred pages long. If you'd read the Lord John books, you get to see sides of him not revealed otherwise and you may develope an affinity and empathy for him. Does anyone agree with this?
Chantal wrote: "Kelly wrote that she had just read a review for Echo: Could you pass along the citation for this review? I have been looking for reviews (unsuccessfully, I must add. I'd just to see what profess..."I wrote that a long time ago I will look for it.
Deanne wrote: "Me again. The Lord John Books are good, just not the same caliber of literature the Outlander series is. And only a few hundred pages long. If you'd read the Lord John books, you get to see side..."I agree.
The hubby buys everything he sees with the name Gabaldon( or as he says, "Gobbledeegook". lol) on it for me, so I've read all of the LJG books.
They definitely provide you with a better understanding of his true character and help to illustrate how alike he and Jamie actually are.
I don't agree that they are alike...at least I never thought about them being alike. They do have the same values...strong family, love of books, both are honorable and trustworthy, sense of humor. I just never thought of them as being alike because their differences seem more pronounced than their similarities.
Their values are what make up their true characters though, aren't they?If you were to write a list of their differences, I would bet money that it's comprised of their physical traits and sexual preferences.
I think one HUGE difference is that LJ is uptight in an English Lord kind of way, while even though Jaime was a Laird (not exactly the same, I know, but still) he tends to view people as people. Jaime just seems more humble. And LJ always seems (even in his own books) like a lone wolf while Jaime tends to be a family man (not just because he has his own child, but in the way he relates to other 'children' like Fergus and Young Ian, or men without family, like Duncan Innes).
Well, they had very different upbringings, but I don't think John is actually that snooty or uptight. He worked hard and payed his dues as a soldier. John's books also take place between Culloden and his stint at Ardsmuir(or thereabouts), so they don't encompass his time spent raising William which I'm sure would show a different side of him. He does show compassion for people though...what about Giving Bobby Higgins a job when nobody else would because he was branded a murderer? And posing as Brianna's fiance to get Jocosta off her back when she was pregnant? And, even though it bugs many of you, marrying Claire to save her life?
Totally forgot that in addition to Jamie and John both marrying Claire to save her life, they have also both offered their lives in exchange for hers.OK, Claire wasn't actually in danger when John offered his life, but HE didn't know that.
OK; but still, the guy is not Jaime, and Jaime is why I sit up late having hypothetical arguements on the internet!! :)
ChristinaRae wrote: "OK; but still, the guy is not Jaime, and Jaime is why I sit up late having hypothetical arguements on the internet!! :)"LMAO...
ChristinaRae wrote: "OK; but still, the guy is not Jaime, and Jaime is why I sit up late having hypothetical arguements on the internet!! :)"I hear you.
We all wish we had a Jamie of our own.
I just have to mention though that a lot of people on here keep spelling Jamie's name incorrectly...and it's really bugging me. The I comes after the M.
Sorry, I just couldn't take it anymore. lol
Lori wrote: "Well, they had very different upbringings, but I don't think John is actually that snooty or uptight. He worked hard and payed his dues as a soldier. John's books also take place between Culloden a..."Yes but i think he married Claire to be closer to Jamie truly. Yes he did it to save her life but I think ulterior motives were to posses something Jamie loved more than anything in the world.
Just my take on it.
I agree somewhat.He married Claire for Jamie's sake, not Claire's.
I disagree with the possession part though. John knows Claire well enough to know that nobody, with the exception of Jamie, could possess her. Besides, he was already in possession of something Jamie loved...William.
John has always had a deep respect for Claire. He even liked her for awhile there until he found out she was Jamie's wife. lol
Lori wrote: "I agree somewhat.He married Claire for Jamie's sake, not Claire's.
I disagree with the possession part though. John knows Claire well enough to know that nobody, with the exception of Jamie, could..."
hummm... Willie was important no doubt but Jamie wasn't given the chance to ... what's the phrase I'm looking for.... developed that deep connection to him. yes he was his son and yes he cherished and loved him but I think no one could take Claire's place..... but it's definitely something to think about.
