Outlander Series discussion
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echo - what are your thoughts so far?
I think it was when Jamie was in France and writing to Claire? He was thinking to himself maybe?
Crystalmk wrote: "Gam26 wrote: "Ok with everything in the last 50 pages my mind could have grapped hold of it chose "what dead girl in France?!" I loved the idea that Jamie had vowed to protect Claire because he was..."You're right, I had wondered the same thing, what dead girl in France? Guess we'll find out in the next book.
After posting this morning, I just read the last 50 pages or so again. Feel a little better now, having reconciled myself to the fact that it is what it is...
Just will be waiting longingly for the next book.
I dont even remember that part. Where was that said? What was it's significance? I'll have to go back and try to find that passage. I don't have the book with me but I believe it was when he was on the ship with Jennie coming back to America.
I don't have the book with me but I believe it was when he was on the ship with Jennie coming back to America. Oh thanks! I'll have to go look it up.
Yeah, that bothered me too. I can't for the life of me remember any mention of her in a previous book. He was into some girl in France (the one he fought a duel over where his hair got in the way) but I don't think she died. Funny how those little things nag. I suppose its a credit to Diana's writing that we notice one funky detail; all of her stuff is pretty seamless.
"Funny how those little things nag...all of her stuff is pretty seamless"....True, but picking at them provides one of the few things to be occupied with till the next book comes along-----So - here's one more:
When Jamie went to apologize to Laoghaire for marrying her when he didn't love her, in the course of hashing out old times, he asked her,
"Who did ye play the loon with, then, when I took the beating for ye?" (long,long ago, at Leoch, in Hall, when L was 16, he chose fists rather than whip, and Claire met him outside afterward to provide first aid -- remember?)
- Well, L told him who the guy was, and then in trying to defend herself said, (Echo:page 676),
"I didna ken he was marrit! And it was after ye wed the Sassenach. I went to him for comfort."
Sorry Laoghaire, no it wasn't. They weren't married then - Jamie's beating for you in Hall took place only a couple of days after Claire first arrived at the castle.
Although niggling, it is sort of fun to find these things - partly because there are so few of them.
Has anyone found any others that I've missed?
I was thinking that too, about them not being married yet. And I thought Claire saw her and Jamie canoodling behind a drape, and that's why he took the beating for her...
The beating was before the canoodling. :)
To be honest, there isn't a discrepancy. L does say that BUT think about it: she did not know he was married-she could be talking about the first time, when she got caught. Then she gave him her "mmmphh" later, for comfort when Jamie married. It never specifies in the text that the canoodling and the virgin sex were at the same time.
Crystalmk wrote: "To be honest, there isn't a discrepancy. L does say that BUT think about it: she did not know he was married-she could be talking about the first time, when she got caught. Then she gave him her "..."Ahhhh...re-reading, I do see what you mean....great!
Thankyou, I feel much better!
You're welcome! It took me a bit, too. Had to keep reading over and over to make sure! I do still want to know about this french girl though....so strange!
I want to know about the dead French girl too. I remember reading through so fast and thinking "huh"? Now I can't find where I read it. Any one know?
L meant that she went to the playboy of the place after she found out that Jamie had married Claire. I'm glad she got to tell Jamie off. Good for you, L!That French girl. Yeah, what was up with that? He couldn't protect 'her'.
What was up with the other memory of rape that Claire had? Remember when she's wandering in the woods and she has the flashback of the rape, then she has yet another where she's naked. She quickly pushed the memory away. It's when that man, who was trying to blackmail Jamie, was still about the camp. At least I think she had another flashback after that flashback.
--
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I have no idea who the French girl is, but since Claire's ancestors were French maybe it will turn out to have been a relative. I'm re-reading Outlander right now, and I'll be combing it for a reference to who he was with before Claire...
Does anyone know why they were calling Claire 'Lady John' instead of 'Lady Grey'? That puzzled me.--
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Marie wrote: ""Funny how those little things nag...all of her stuff is pretty seamless"....True, but picking at them provides one of the few things to be occupied with till the next book comes along-----So - h..."
Do you think that the telling of this was; 1) she let him know who it was she was playing with and 2) that she went to this man for comfort AFTER finding out that they were married and THEN found out this guy was married? I am thinking the first time, the time her da caught her and Jamie took the beating, she had know clue the dude was married. AFTER she found out that Jamie and Claire were wed, she needed comfort, so she went to the same dude she had messed with in the first place, and AFTER found out FINALLY that he was married? That is how I read it anyway.
Yeah, I can't remember a girl in France from the first books. So maybe there will be some explanation for it. Does anyone feel that this book was rushed? Not just the last 50 pgs. I thought that the whole thing moved faster, and now that I think back there wasn't a whole lot of explanation about some things like Henry Christien's recovery.
Marguerite wrote: "Marie wrote: ""Funny how those little things nag...all of her stuff is pretty seamless"....True, but picking at them provides one of the few things to be occupied with till the next book comes alo..."
Yep! Message 67 is exactly what Crystalmk said in message 60!
Marie wrote: "Marguerite wrote: "Marie wrote: ""Funny how those little things nag...all of her stuff is pretty seamless"....True, but picking at them provides one of the few things to be occupied with till the..."
mei culpa, didnt read that far until after I replied to you.
Good to know we had the same basic conclusions!
A question about LJG's Brother, Is this the same man who spares Jamie's life at Culloden? I looked in Voyager but couldn't find his name...
Yes it is Hal. His title is Lord Melton. He is the same one that spared Jamie's life at Culloden. Despite the fact that Jamie wanted to die.
Not that I think Jamie would refer to her so generically, but do you think the dead girl in France is baby Hope? I haven't gone back to reread that yet . . .
Ashley wrote: "Not that I think Jamie would refer to her so generically, but do you think the dead girl in France is baby Hope? I haven't gone back to reread that yet . . . "Do you mean Faith? No, wouldn't fit.
I may be posting this in an unrelated spot :), but I am purposely NOT reading through these posts for fear of inadvertantly happening upon a spoiler! As for my thoughts so far... In the beginning (first 200 pp or so) I was mesmerized, not skimming through a single word or sentence, but I have noticed now that I am getting a little bored (maybe too harsh a word?) with the copious amount of intrigues with LJG, William, and brother Hal. I even got a little restless (SPOILER alert!) with the skirmish at sea involving Jamie, Claire and Ian. Come on! Enough of hand-to-hand combat, murder, mayhem, and "stitching up" by Claire! I must admit to skimming those pages just to get to the bottom line - they were safe and once more on their way to ... somewhere?! CjHays
Honestly, I put the book down halfway through and started another one. I never had that problem with the first six books, I literally devoured them.
Misfit - I haven't been tempted to put it away yet, but I'm not halfway through either. This doesn't bode well. I plan to finish it no matter what, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'll love it from front to back! Besides, I'm anxious to get on here and see everyone else's thoughts, and I can't do that till I'm done! cjhays
Ashley wrote: "Not that I think Jamie would refer to her so generically, but do you think the dead girl in France is baby Hope? I haven't gone back to reread that yet . . . "It isn't Faith. It was someone he know before he was hit in the head with the axe and sent to the abby.He knew her before he met Claire.
He also says she died because of his lust.
I can't believe I haven't posted before! I loved AEITB - the excitement, seeing Willie grow, all those little funny moments that make a person laugh out loud while reading, causing everyone around them to stare... I was in Boston the last two days I was reading, and kept thinknig about Claire and Bree (and, er, Frank) having been in the same place as I was!I hadn't known that the first recorded use of ether in surgery was in Boston, about 100 years before Claire's internship...
By the way, with regard to Jamie saying he hasn't seen Willie since he was 12 - wasn't he talknig to Claire at the time? Actually, it doesn't matter who he was talking to - unless it's Lord John, no one else knows that Jamie was in that room with John (asking for a gem) at the time Willie and Bree were talking! So *of course* Jamie's not going to refer to it!
There was a 'girl in France' mentioned in DiA (I have to go back to find out her name, I'm pretty sure it was mentioned). Jamie had fought a duel over her while he was living there before meeting Claire (and before getting an ax in the head). If I remember correctly, he won the duel but lost the girl. Jamie and Claire ran into her in a party in France, and the story came up then. I don't remember her being dead, but she could be now. I'll have to check DiA later to see if this fits.
Regarding the dead French girl, I'm rereading Outlander and just came to their wedding night (sigh!). When Claire asks Jamie why he came back to Scotland instead of staying in France where it was probably safer, there's this passage: "He opened his mouth to reply, then reconsidered, sipping wine. Apparently I was getting near the edge of his own area of secrecy. 'Well, that's a long story, Sassenach,' he said, avoiding the issue. 'I'll tell it ye later...' " I can't remember yet if he explains that long story later in the book, or if that's maybe about the dead French girl...
That's page 279-280, btw.
Jamie did fight a duel while fighting in france as a mercenary, but he didn't end up with the girl. He sees her again with Claire while living in France and all that intrique with Charles Stuart. I think the dead girl is someone new that we haven't heard of before.
Wendy wrote: "Jamie did fight a duel while fighting in france as a mercenary, but he didn't end up with the girl. He sees her again with Claire while living in France and all that intrique with Charles Stuart. I..."I think you are right. I think she is someone we haven't heard of before. I hope there isn't another child of Jamie's walking around out there.
You never know. He's a horney guy. hehehe But I don't think so, he was a virgin when he and Claire got married, and i beleived him.
Renee wrote: "Does anyone know why they were calling Claire 'Lady John' instead of 'Lady Grey'? That puzzled me.That grabbed my attention too. I thought she would be addressed as Lady Claire or even Lady Grey but Lady John? was something out of left field.
John's title is honorific since he's the son of a Duke (Children of Dukes and, usually, Earls are given the title of Lord and Lady even if they themselves are not peers. The eldest son born to a Duke or Earl is often given a courtesy title and peerage such as Marquis, Earl, or Viscount). As far as I know that's why he's called Lord John and not Lord Grey since Grey is his surname and is not related to a title (i.e., William's last name is Ransome but he's Lord Ellsmere). I also noticed this when Jamie is sent to Hellewater to serve out his sentence and its mentioned that Baron's two daughters were Lady Geneva and Lady Isabel. As the children of a Baron the should have simply been addressed as misses.
Or so I thought.
The LJ thing though made me think of Claire's friend in Boston, Joe Abernathy. He, and the other medical students, called her LJ ala the film depictions of Lady Jane because of her accent and manner. Wellllllll, now Claire is really LJ, Lady John.
If it was done for that reason talk about your drawn out foreshadowing!
I have been such a rabid fan. Read each book again every time a new one came out. Think Gabaldon is a brilliant writer. Aside from the rich details and descriptions, the characters have always acted true to themselves, even though they were all multi-faceted. So I could not BELIEVE what happened at the end with Claire. This is not the same as when she was trying to save Jamie's life in France. It is not consistent with her character, nor with Lord John's. Nor does it make sense for anyone involved. Neither one would have acted as they did, just for a few moments of comfort. Why then? Why would either of them act as they did? I have no problem with the cliff hangers. Just makes the anticipation more delicious. But this one thing has really pissed me off. I find I cannot enjoy thinking back about the novel or any of the things that happened because that one scene ruined it all. I think it's like a divorced woman who cannot remember her marriage fondly because her husband betrayed her in the end. My heart is broken.
Barbara wrote: "I have been such a rabid fan. Read each book again every time a new one came out. Think Gabaldon is a brilliant writer. Aside from the rich details and descriptions, the characters have always a..."I agree Claire broke my heart when she slept with LJG. I just can't wait to see what Jamie thinks. When Jenny gets wind of this all hell may break she does not like Claire.
I don't think that Jamie will be best pleased that LJ married & slept with Claire but i think he will eventually understand why they had to do it! I mean come on it was out of comfort towards each other while they both felt deserted, greiving, lost & lonely, is that not what Jamie did when he married with the everso spitefull "LEGHAIR" ( much better name for the little shrew!) after Claire went back through the stones? As for Jenny not liking Claire i don't think that she doesn't like her i think that she was just peeved at Claire for leaving Jamie, as any sister hates seeing a family member hurting especially when as close as them. Jenny was devestated at the fact that there was nothing Claire could do to save Auld Ian, so greif & anger took over & she blamed Claire for quite alot. All heat of the moment stuff & having the Fraser stubborn streak she's not going to admit she mite have been slightly naive medically speaking & appologise.
My heart IS broken. But did I mention that I am pissed too? I will NOT read any of the LJ books. I don't want to know any more about him other than his relationship with Jamie, Claire, and William. In the same way, I wouldn't care to read about what "Leghair" (love that name) is doing when J and C are not involved. They are both rivals to J and C. I will not be coerced into reading those LJ books. I have a bit of stubborn blood too.
Stubborn Scottish blood, I meant to say.
Wendy wrote: "Yeah, I can't remember a girl in France from the first books. So maybe there will be some explanation for it. Does anyone feel that this book was rushed? Not just the last 50 pgs. I thought tha..."
Wendy, I completely, 100% agree!! I think it's because the book was split into so many different POV's, and it just seemed so hurried. Kind of an annoying feeling, since it took 4 years to be published...
Sarah wrote: "Wendy wrote: "Yeah, I can't remember a girl in France from the first books. So maybe there will be some explanation for it. Does anyone feel that this book was rushed? Not just the last 50 pgs...."
My first thought was that the last 200 pages were missing. Maybe she had missed so many deadlines, she had to send it in as is.
Heidi wrote: "Is he not referring to the baby girl that he and Claire had that died?"I thought so too, Heidi. It didn't feel like a reference to a past love interest at all.
Angela wrote: "Heidi wrote: "Is he not referring to the baby girl that he and Claire had that died?"I thought so too, Heidi. It didn't feel like a reference to a past love interest at all."
I agree. I thought he was referring to the baby girl.
Angela wrote: "Heidi wrote: "Is he not referring to the baby girl that he and Claire had that died?"Could someone please tell me what page in 'Echo' the "girl in France" reference is on?
Ok so I have read all of the Outlander books but none of the LJ books because he never held that much interest for me. I did not find this book hard to follow though... and i found the first half of this book very slow due to so much focus on LJ and William. I have read all the comments and did reread the entire series prior to reading Echo. I fell in love with Jamie, Claire, Brianna, Roger, Ian, and Fergus throughout this series and couldnt wait for this book because I really enjoyed ALL of the previous ones. However this one did let me down. I have great respect for the author but this book was VERY slow in the first 200 pages and if i wasnt so heavily invested in the characters allready i would not have continued reading. I think there were some great plot lines and twists thrown into it but unfortunately they came into the story too far in and never had time to unravel at all. I did not feel like it was a traditional "to be continued" book... it was more like when you lose power in the middle of a movie on TV... there was NO sense of satisfaction at all in the end of this book. I felt like it had FINALLY picked up the pace and then "BAM" the end!!! As to some of what you guys have mentioned... Laoghaire did not say she was about to be beaten for sleeping with the married McLeod... she was caught kissing or something like it... and that is why she was to be beat... and then our Hero Jamie took the beating and she thought he did it out of "love" for her. Later he married Claire and it broke Laoghaire's heart and she went back to the married McLeod for comfort and lost her virginity to him that time... and shortly thereafter learned he was married (at least thats how i understood it!)
Also... Jenny does like Claire. They use to be friends and she held a grudge and then she was irrational and upset about the soon to be death of her husband and took it out on CLaire because that was the most convient thing for her to do at the time in her irrationalness... but... after (SPOILER) Ian dies she admits to Jamie that she knew Claire could not have done anything and that she regrets the things she said to her... and Jamie tells her that Clair is very forgiving and it will be allright. Also at the very end of the book she walks up to Claire with a humorous expression on her face and says, "like father like son...god help us all!" As if to say things would be ok between them...(at least thats how i read it!)
Also it is all too possible that Fergus is related to Claire. As she even figures its possiblity in staring at Percy... whom married Fergus's Aunt (if the Comte does end up being the father ofcourse) Technically Claire could decend from either of the Beauchamp siblings lines... Comte & Fergus being one of them... or Percy being another as his wife is a beauchamp sister. Wouldnt it be interesting if down the line Fergus can hear the stones... or Germain? Then again there are a lot of Beauchamps and it could be a totally unrelated family of them.
Also... the "girl" that we all seem to be stuck
on here I did wonder about. Here is what he says on that (page 774-775), "Odd how the presence of death seemed to bring with it so many attendants, shades long-forgotten, glimpsed briefly in the gathering shadow. The thought of Claire, and how he had sworn to protect her from the first time he held her, brought back to him the nameless girl." (Thier daughter was not even a thought when he first swore to protect clair... and then when she did come into play she did have a name...faith!) Then it continues, "She'd died in France, on the far side of the void in his head that had been made by the blow of an ax." ( i took this to mean that he has trouble with the memories because of the ax wound/trauma from Dougal... but that there was a girl floating through those memories somewhere!) Then it continues, "He hadn't thought of her in years, but suddenly she was there again. She'd been in his mind when he'd held Claire at Leoch, and he'd felt that his marriage might be some small atonement. (i dont get this... because he is married to Claire he is attoning for some other womans death?...hmmm) Then it continues, "He'd learned slowely to fogive himself for what had not been his fault and, in loving Claire, gave the girl's shade some peace, he hoped. He had felt obscurely that he owed God a life and had paid that debt by taking Claire to wife... though God knew he would have taken her in any case, he thought, and smiled wryly." (I could have contrued this to be talking of Faith but it would have fitted in oddly up until the part where he takes Claire as wife to make up for something... that makes it seem like yes there was indeed another girl and the use of the word "shade" implies that she is indeed dead. I do not recall an earlier mention of this nameless girl in any of the books. Yes he did seem a virgin when he slept with Claire though and i would hate to think he could block out sleeping with someone for the first time... or could have lied all this time... so maybe it was just young love with no physical aspect as it would not have been proper... we shall have to see i guess.)
Ofcourse I can't wait for the next book to find out what happens to everyone... and I do mean EVERYONE! I have to say though that this was my least favorite of all of them in this series so far... sadly. Not to say that it didnt still have its good parts to it... but it was too slow and to inconclusive.
Things i loved: Denny! He was a great character to add in... and i liked that Claire got to meet Mr. Rawlings's twin too. Benedict Arnold was a fun figure to see his name in there as well. Ian finding out about his son and making a sort of peace with Emily was good... though I would have liked him to tell Jamie, Claire, and Jenny. Getting to know William a bit more was nice... and thank God the truth is out... that was getting too dragged on... but his parts were too long and inconsequential. Brianna and Roger back in real time was the most exciting part of the story and William Buckleigh traveling was very cool.
Things that I did not like:
Fergus just takes off (typical) but no real progression on the story line with the Beauchamps and he wasnt a big part of the story. William is portrayed at least to me as a bit of an airhead (must get that from his mom)... but constantly getting lost, hurt, not knowing things about himself and others that you would really think he should. His character is lacking and doesnt come close to living up to his real father. I also didnt like Claire leaving Scotland with Ian but Jamie staying behind... that was so out of character... but i could deal with it if maybe there was a bit of focus on the fact that it was odd. Like there was NO story at all of Claire and Ians voyage... where maybe Claire could have taken note of the fact that Ian held such a high place in Jamies life for him to not have gone with her. The sea voyages in themselves which take months to happen were of no consequence at all and barely had any part in the story... which was hard to swallow cnsidering the blockades and from what we had allready read in previous books about how long and daunting they could be. Then Clair marrying John... which i understood and was a great twist was turned ugly when she slept with him...ewww! It was what seemed like no time at all from when she found out he was dead. There was no vivid description at the end... and the feelings of the the characters were either rushed or completely left out alltogether. Then you had Roger and William... did they go into the stone circle and go back... did they die as was forshadowed by William's geneology... or did they not even go back at all but perhaps figure out what was up? That was very open ended... more so then needed to be! What about Jem? He is about to cross a magnetic spot where he could fall through time underground into who knows what or die or go right on past like Brianna did on the train. And why on earth would they not have checked the letters before Roger would go back... both of them being so smart!!! They knew it possible that Cameron took Jem through the stones and had presence of mind to make sandwiches... but not to read all the letters and see if her parrents wrote of it and tried to warn them!? Suddenly at the end there was just too many open story lines and plots with all kinds of things happening that were so uncharacteristic that i felt totally dumbfounded when i put the book down finished. The one thing I can say is I hope that Dianna does a really good job on the next one and it is up beat and true to the characters we love and finishes up some of these plotlines and fills in holes here and there. All in all the book was ok... but the worst one in the series in my opinion.
Tiffany wrote: "Ok so I have read all of the Outlander books but none of the LJ books because he never held that much interest for me. I did not find this book hard to follow though... and i found the first half ..."OK, I agree with almost everything you said. I am now convinced that Jamie was thinking of some as-yet unintroduced character, rather than the baby girl. Obviously, I had not read that part carefully. (Sometimes I get carried away, read too fast, and miss things.) Do we think Dianna reads any/all of these posts? Hopefully, she at least has someone to read them and report to her. Maybe then she will decide to make the LJ/Claire thing become a figment of someone's imagination that DIDN'T REALLY HAPPEN!
Tiffany wrote: "Ok so I have read all of the Outlander books but none of the LJ books because he never held that much interest for me. I did not find this book hard to follow though... and i found the first half ..."I so agree with everything you said Tiffany, thanks for putting it all into words for me. I finished the book weeks ago and still am so upset by so much of the book. You're one of the few people that have mentioned about not believing that Claire would of left Jamie in Scottland to go back to America. I just don't buy that one either.
I don't want to say that I hated the book, but it was for sure my least favorite of the 7 books. I read the other 6 at least 4 times, but I can't see myself reading Echo again any time soon. Maybe a fast read of it just before the 8th book comes out.
And, that's another thing...when will the 8th book come out. I surely hope Diana doesn't make us wait 4 years for it!
I have never been so totally into a series of books before and read them over and over. Diana is a great writer, as we all know. And, seeing that I'm still going crazy weeks after reading Echo says something about her too.
I dont even remember that part. Where was that said? What was it's significance? I'll have to go back and try to find that passage.