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Infinite Jest by D. F. Wallace, Week 13
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Zulfiya
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Dec 30, 2014 08:06PM
Now, when this years is nearly over, we are still in the year of the Depend Adult Undergarment, and it is November for the next four weeks.
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Zulfiya wrote: "Now, when this years is nearly over, we are still in the year of the Depend Adult Undergarment, and it is November for the next four weeks."It does seem like part of the infinite jest of IJ is that we are stuck in these few crucial days in the lives of these people...and I am thinking more and more (with a sinking heart) that most of this will not get wrapped up, and therefore, readers will be stuck in the infinite loop of reading and rereading this book forever. Good one, DFW.
This section and last week's sections are what I was expecting for more of the book, and I think I would have the same "love it" feelings as other readers if it was a bit more like that. So many connections in these sections, even if subtle!
For the first part, prostitute Matty Pemulis has a younger brother Mickey...assuming that younger Mickey is our very own Michael Pemulis? AND this brother of the Peemster knows our very own Poor Tony? Oh boy, things are coming together!!
I didn't write page numbers for this, but there is also a discussion of how Bernard Antitoi organized throwing toxic waste into the face of the Canadian minister of inter-ONAN trade....hmmm...does anyone else see a similarity to throwing acid into the face of Joelle? I know we never got details on that one, but acid to the face and disfigurement doens't leave tons to the imagination, and this seems to really fit.
In keeping with this theme, there is also the girl in himself's movie (Blood sister) that displays hideous faceburn scars. To me this seems like too much of a coincidence (too close to what supposedly disfigures Joelle eventually), but weirdly, this movie is the one right before Madame Psychosis starts appearing in himself's films. The footnote speculates it might be a freebase accident, but doesn't know for sure. Anyone have any ideas on this one?
Also, lastly for me for right now, I feel so vindicated about my suspicions on Orin here...M. Duplessis received his original copy of the entertainment from a relative (who is an athlete) of the filmmaker. The operation in place for this is located in the southwest, and the field-operative with prostheses is clinging to this person. This just points straight to Orin...so it is speculated that Orin had an original copy that he passed on to M.Duplessis. So Orin must know more than he lets on, and must have something more to do with this!
Kaycie wrote: "and I am thinking more and more (with a sinking heart) that most of this will not get wrapped up, and therefore, readers will be stuck in the infinite loop of reading and rereading this book forever. Good one, DFW."I also have a feeling not everything will get wrapped up, but I hope we get at least some sense of closure at the end, and that that is not the reason why people keep reading IJ over and over! I can at least say for myself that I would read it again just for the shear pleasure of the visual, witty writing, and for both the comedic and heart wrenching scenes DFW has been able to brilliantly portray.
For the first part, prostitute Matty Pemulis has a younger brother Mickey...assuming that younger Mickey is our very own Michael Pemulis? AND this brother of the Peemster knows our very own Poor Tony? Oh boy, things are coming together!!
Yep! Things are definitely coming together! I loved the restaurant scene where we see various unknown individuals passing by on the sidewalk, and then we later come back to those same people from their points of view and find out that they are Kate and Poor Tony and others.
there is also a discussion of how Bernard Antitoi organized throwing toxic waste into the face of the Canadian minister of inter-ONAN trade....hmmm...does anyone else see a similarity to throwing acid into the face of Joelle?
I only vaguely remember this part, I would have to go back and reread to refresh my memory....
I loved the Blood Sister movie. Yes, I did perk up at the faceburn scars. I didn't realize this was the movie before Madame Psychosis appeared in the films - good catch. I'll have to revisit the footnote, do you mean FN24, the one with the filmography?
And yes! Orin must have given M. Duplessis the original copy of the entertainment! But, I still wonder if Orin knows more than he lets on. Did he know what he was passing on? And how did the transfer take place, meaning, how was it decided that M. Duplessis would get the film? I don't remember the specifics of M. Duplessis, what all we know about him. And what was Orin's relationship with him?
oh no, I liked Orin! :-(In this section I really understood how DFW is using the non-choronological narration for suspense. We see Poor Tony and Ruth heading for the Antitois' store and already know what has happened there...
I thought there might be parallels between the Big Buddy system at ETA and sponsorship in AA.
"I didn't write page numbers for this, but there is also a discussion of how Bernard Antitoi organized throwing toxic waste into the face of the Canadian minister of inter-ONAN trade....hmmm...does anyone else see a similarity to throwing acid into the face of Joelle? I know we never got details on that one, but acid to the face and disfigurement doens't leave tons to the imagination, and this seems to really fit."
I totally missed this. It's great to have a reason for whatever happened to Joelle.
Re Matty Pemulis - this section gives us dates. He has his 23rd birthday in November YDAU, and he was 3 or 4 in 1989, so YDAU is 2008.
Mike must have known about the abuse that was happening. Did it happen to him too?
I like the sound of Blood Sister. I wouldn't mind watching that movie!
But I was freaked out by the moment when Hal is flipping through all the cartridges saying they are all clearly labelled ... but I'm wondering if The Entertainment is there, and not labelled...
And it struck me as so sad, ref DFW's own life and death, when Hal talked about anhedonia, and something worse than an absence of feeling, "a level of psychic pain wholly incompatible with human life as we know it" ... such that the sufferer "will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise ... their terror of falling is still just as great ... It's not desiring the fall; it's terror of the flames."
all of that was very emotive for me. I have terrible fear of heights and it gives me nightmares to imagine what it would be like to be trapped in a burning building and have to choose between jumping or being burned. I can totally understand DFW's suicide in that context although it seems like such a loss.
Rosemary wrote: "And it struck me as so sad, ref DFW's own life and death, when Hal talked about anhedonia, and something worse than an absence of feeling, "a level of psychic pain wholly incompatible with human life as we know it" ... such that the sufferer "will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise ... their terror of falling is still just as great ... It's not desiring the fall; it's terror of the flames.""This was a very sad section, and yes, very emotional and great at creating a vision for what people in suicidal states must feel. So terrible.
Linda wrote: " I can at least say for myself that I would read it again just for the shear pleasure of the visual, witty writing, and for both the comedic and heart wrenching scenes DFW has been able to brilliantly portray."I think its so great how people can get such different things out of books! I guess that's why there are so many and so many different styles! I do not particularly like DFWs writing style, and I am painfully aware at all points of this book that I am reading a book and its hard for me. Parts of this book ARE laugh out loud funny, but more parts are very dark and heavy, and quite difficult for me to get through. Its like forcing yourself to do something you know is going to hurt...its hard to pick this book up each day because I know there is going to be something that hurts. I can see wanting to reread IJ in the future, but its going to be in the distant future. I am MUCH more in to my Pynchon read right now, and MUCH more into his writing, so I can say with extreme confidence that I will be at least working through all of his monsters (at least once) before I would return to IJ!
Linda wrote: "And yes! Orin must have given M. Duplessis the original copy of the entertainment! But, I still wonder if Orin knows more than he lets on. Did he know what he was passing on? And how did the transfer take place, meaning, how was it decided that M. Duplessis would get the film? I don't remember the specifics of M. Duplessis, what all we know about him. And what was Orin's relationship with him?"
I do think Orin knows more than he lets on and knew what he was doing, but I guess we'll be finding out in the next few weeks! I don't know anything about why M. Duplessis, or what Orin's relationship with him is. All I know is that he is the guy that Gately accidentally killed, and (I don't remember at this point if we know this or if this is my theory that I have now taken as fact) I think that Gately or his partner must have taken the original copy of the entertainment from Duplessis's house when they robbed it that night.
Linda wrote: "I'll have to revisit the footnote, do you mean FN24, the one with the filmography?"
Yup! i went back through the filmography again and didn't see Madame Psychosis appear until just after the Blood Sister film.
Rosemary wrote: "In this section I really understood how DFW is using the non-choronological narration for suspense. We see Poor Tony and Ruth heading for the Antitois' store and already know what has happened there... "
Also allows us to see the same situations from multiple perspectives, like Linda mentioned! That part is very cool.
Rosemary wrote: "It's great to have a reason for whatever happened to Joelle."
Like I said, I'm not sure if this is what happened to her, but it sure sounded similar! At least something to keep in mind!
Rosemary wrote: "e Matty Pemulis - this section gives us dates. He has his 23rd birthday in November YDAU, and he was 3 or 4 in 1989, so YDAU is 2008.
Mike must have known about the abuse that was happening. Did it happen to him too?"
GREAT catch on the dates!! Nice!!
And I thought from Matty's section that Mickey was spared from the abuse. Not 100% positive, but I thought his wording was leaning that way.
Agreed with you both on reading about the difficulties of the suicides. This book seems to be getting darker and is taking a larger toll on me the further we progress. I was actually reading next week's section right before bed last night and had nightmares about it! Sheesh!!
Kaycie wrote: "I don't know anything about why M. Duplessis, or what Orin's relationship with him is. All I know is that he is the guy that Gately accidentally killed, and (I don't remember at this point if we know this or if this is my theory that I have now taken as fact) I think that Gately or his partner must have taken the original copy of the entertainment from Duplessis's house when they robbed it that night."OK, that is all I know about Duplessis too, I wasn't sure if there was more said about him that I had missed or glossed over.
And I thought from Matty's section that Mickey was spared from the abuse. Not 100% positive, but I thought his wording was leaning that way.
That was my understanding also, that Mikey had not been abused. I wonder if Mike would have been able to play tennis well enough attend ETA if he had been abused? We have Mike at the academy, while his brother is a prostitute. One was abused and the other was not, and they are living two completely different lives. I'm not saying that upbringing can completely account for what you end up doing later in your life, but it sure plays a big part to put you on an initial path, whatever that may be.
I'm at a point where I find the associations between the characters are becoming clearer; for example, Matty is Pemulis' older brother and he was in Poor Tony's crew at one point (691). However, I'm finding the closer I get to the end, I end up having more questions. I agree with many of you, I don't think "IJ" is going to end in a nice little package with a bow on top...Far from it, actually. Matty and Mickey Pemulis
I thought Mickey was spared from Da's sexual abuse in Matty's section. However, he was present in the room every time their father came through the bedroom door; I think that can be just as detrimental to somebody's psyche. Take for example, the character (I don't know if we knew her name) who says she became an addict due to the trauma caused by her father who would sexually abuse a disabled sister while they shared a bedroom...Remember, the disabled sister who was adorned with the Raquel Welch mask? Well, in this scenario, the sister who was spared became an addict. I don't think we know enough about Pemulis, at this point, to understand if he's carrying any residual stress from his childhood...Do we? All we know is that his worst fear is to be kicked out of ETA and have to return to Allston.
Poor Tony & the Antitoi Brothers
On page 690-91, Poor Tony is discussing how his crew was invited by Bertraund Antitoi to take part in a job at the Sheraton Commander which involved an androgynous Quebecer insurgent throwing waste at a Canadian Official...Who was this insurgent?
I wonder why of all those who are drug riddled, why Poor Tony is still on the streets and not at Ennet House?
Kate Gompert
Her sections are some of the most poignant compared to others when discussing those who fight the ongoing battle of severe depression. You know loneliness is a major component of this "psychotic depression," but I didn't even think about how being labeled as this could further alienate the afflicted, due to the stigma associated with the psychotic part of the diagnosis. The analogy for those who are "psychotically depressed," measuring the value of the terror(s) of those who jump from the window of a burning high-rise. I was floored when she said the person in whom 'Its' invisible agony reaches a certain endurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise...the fear of falling remains a constant, but the other terror, the fire's flames: when the flames get close enough, the falling to death becomes he slightly less terrible of the two terrors. What a most riveting picture of "psychotic depression" this section painted...How dire this sadness must be when one finds themselves contemplating the the slightly less terrible of two terrors...The weight of plummeting to your death versus being incinerated by fire (tortured agony, emptiness, loneliness). A real flare, no pun intended, for gripping and tense writing Wallace inhabits.
Paranormal Activity Revisited
Lyle is officially levitating just a couple mm. above the top of the towel dispenser (700). I'm beginning to wonder if he's an apparition all together...?
Randy Lenz
I would have loved a segment between Lyle and Lenz, quite honestly, I think they would have had a field with one another. Lenz, we find, is now living on the streets under deep disguise hiding in bright-lit and public plain sight. We find him wearing fluorescent-yellow snow pants, the slightly shiny coat to a long-tailed tux, a sombrero with little wooden balls hanging off the brim… (717). He’s gone to extremes trying to hide in plain sight; to say he’s under deep disguise is an understatement, this guy sticks out like a sore thumb! Again, one of those situations where adhering to an extreme principal gets you closer to the undesired outcome is at play here.
The Entertainment
Still no confirmation on having the original copy in hand...Right (719)?
Not many comments for this section. I think only a few people have made it this far yet - congratulations to Kaycie, Linda, Ami and Rosemary!
How did you guys know which pages to read? I'm not sure I've divided it up correctly. It either seems too short or I have the wrong dates.
Congrats to you too, Nicola! You've caught up to the group just about in time to help us finish this beast.I've got week 13 ending on page 723. There are a few pages before that which are also headed as November 14th so if you stopped on one of those the section would seem short. Week 13 is around 40 pages.
The bit with Matty Pemulis sitting in the restaurant I liked; the idea that everyone is running their own lives and it just depends who we are looking at as to which side of the window we are looking at through.So this is Mikes brother. Has there been any prior information on Mikes family and pre history? I can't remember anything standing out but I have missed a great deal on my first read through. This was rather gross and obviously leads us to wonder about whether Mike himself suffered abuse. He didn't in this section (well not direct 'physical' abuse but the horror and fear of being a participant in the nightly rape of his older brother would qualify as abuse regardless) but we don't know what happened during another time period.
As an aside, fathers really aren't portrayed well in this book...
I found the discussion of anhedonia interesting, not so much in itself but in how DFW related it back to the emptiness of achieving goals and how that doesn't make you a worthwhile human in an of itself, turning that onto the younger children of the tennis academy and saying 'it's more invigorating to want than to have, it seems' which is itself relatable to addiction.
What is Mike up to with manipulation of panels? Is he trying to get some blackmail material? And also who is Avril ringing? A journalistic business address? Steeply perhaps?
And Lyle is actually levitating? A genuine yogi then?
Maybe he's the one moving everything around.
Oh I missed the last bits because I wasn't sure when it ended.I have a really bad feeling about the chase between Poor Tony and Ruth van Cleve. It looks like they are heading into the store currently occupied by the Wheelchair assassins and if so I think it will be curtains for them both in an exceedingly unpleasant way.
There is also a hint that the master copy might be possessed by Orin? Or at least that Orin had been responsible for sending the copies out previously not just to DuPlessis? Did he know what they were if he did? Was he venting some spite towards one of his mothers lovers? Just the sort of stupid thing he'd do...
Well, stay tuned to find out I guess.
Kaycie wrote: I didn't write page numbers for this, but there is also a discussion of how Bernard Antitoi organized throwing toxic waste into the face of the Canadian minister of inter-ONAN trade....hmmm...does anyone else see a similarity to throwing acid into the face of Joelle? I know we never got details on that one, but acid to the face and disfigurement doens't leave tons to the imagination, and this seems to really fit.."An interesting thought but it's been stated so many times that it was acid that disfigured her (and that Orin was an 'acid dodger) that I'm sure it's going to be acid when we get the scene where this happens. And I'm sure we will :-)
Kaycie wrote:Also, lastly for me for right now, I feel so vindicated about my suspicions on Orin here...M. Duplessis received his original copy of the entertainment from a relative (who is an athlete) of the filmmaker. The operation in place for this is located in the southwest, and the field-operative with prostheses is clinging to this person. This just points straight to Orin...so it is speculated that Orin had an original copy that he passed on to M.Duplessis. So Orin must know more than he lets on, and must have something more to do with this! "It's definitely Orin they are talking about, no doubt about that.
One thing I will add, with all of the characters we have seen in this book I can't remember seeing Wardine make a reappearance.
Ami wrote: I don't think we know enough about Pemulis, at this point, to understand if he's carrying any residual stress from his childhood...Do we? All we know is that his worst fear is to be kicked out of ETA and have to return to Allston."I couldn't even remember this.
I certainly don't blame him if this is an example of his homelife...
Ami wrote: Lenz, we find, is now living on the streets under deep disguise hiding in bright-lit and public plain sight. We find him wearing fluorescent-yellow snow pants, the slightly shiny coat to a long-tailed tux, a sombrero with little wooden balls hanging off the brim… (717). He’s gone to extremes trying to hide in plain sight; to say he’s under deep disguise is an understatement, this guy sticks out like a sore thumb! Again, one of those situations where adhering to an extreme principal gets you closer to the undesired outcome is at play here.Yes, Lenz seems to have little grasp on reality...
Ami wrote: I wonder why of all those who are drug riddled, why Poor Tony is still on the streets and not at Ennet House?"I've been wondering that too.
Rosemary wrote: Re Matty Pemulis - this section gives us dates. He has his 23rd birthday in November YDAU, and he was 3 or 4 in 1989, so YDAU is 2008."
I knew there would be a way to work this out at some point if a reader paid attention. Good job!
Kaycie wrote: Agreed with you both on reading about the difficulties of the suicides. This book seems to be getting darker and is taking a larger toll on me the further we progress. I was actually reading next week's section right before bed last night and had nightmares about it! Sheesh!! Wow! That's rough! This really is difficult for you. Extra Kudos for sticking with it!
Nicola wrote: "Oh I missed the last bits because I wasn't sure when it ended.I have a really bad feeling about the chase between Poor Tony and Ruth van Cleve. It looks like they are heading into the store curr..."
I'm under the impression they have not found the master copy as of yet, Nicola. Try rereading the interview between Himself and Hal (age 10) and see what you think. Himself mentions something about this cartridge, if you recall ...I'm thinking this is the master copy everybody is turning everything and everybody upside down in search for.
I think Orin did know of the lethality associated with the Entertainment and sent them to specific people for that very reason you mentioned...Retribution for being a lover of Avril's.
One thing I will add, with all of the characters we have seen in this book I can't remember seeing Wardine make a reappearance
I didn't think Wardine was meant to be revisited, although it would have been nice, I thought it was more about who was narrating her section...It was an observation made by somebody connecting certain plot lines, perhaps.
Ami wrote: "I'm under the impression they have not found the master copy as of yet, Nicola."No they haven't but that's not stopping them using test subjects on read only copies they have found.
Ami wrote: Himself mentions something about this cartridge, if you recall ...I'm thinking this is the master copy everybody is turning everything and everybody upside down in search for. ."You mean the one he says is buried in his head? I thought that was a reference to his living and breathing and thinking about film. I didn't take it literally. If so did the Master Copy survive the microwave?
Ami wrote: I think Orin did know of the lethality associated with the Entertainment and sent them to specific people for that very reason you mentioned...Retribution for being a lover of Avril's.The trouble with that theory is that she's apparently had so many of them. Why was he the only target we know about?
Nicola wrote: "Ami wrote: Himself mentions something about this cartridge, if you recall ...I'm thinking this is the master copy everybody is turning everything and everybody upside down in search for. ."You m..."
Yes, that's the instance.
As far as knowing if the Master Copy survived the microwave, I guess we'll see...But there may be something with Hal's reminiscing about digging up Himself's head with Gately while John Wayne is watching over them, in the beginning... Could be a something else to think about?
Ami wrote: "Nicola wrote: "Ami wrote: Himself mentions something about this cartridge, if you recall ...I'm thinking this is the master copy everybody is turning everything and everybody upside down in search..."Oh True! Holy cow I completely forgot about that!
Well, I think that's it ;-)
Nicola wrote: "Ami wrote: "I'm under the impression they have not found the master copy as of yet, Nicola."No they haven't but that's not stopping them using test subjects on read only copies they have found."
Yes, but they would have to use the tests subjects, right...To see what's on these copies? There are going to be casualties regardless.
Ami wrote: Yes, but they would have to use the tests subjects, right...To see what's on these copies? There are going to be casualties regardless. .."That as well. Actually I'm not sure you've read that part yet so I won't say anything more. I've been reading big chunks and I tend to forget what is in each section. It's nothing major but if you haven't come upon it yet I'll wait and I'm sure you'll understand what I mean when you read it.
Nicola wrote: "Ami wrote: Yes, but they would have to use the tests subjects, right...To see what's on these copies? There are going to be casualties regardless. .."That as well. Actually I'm not sure you've r..."
I'm ahead of you, so I must have missed it. Post it in the section it would be appropriate to read it in and I'll check it out there?
Nicola wrote: "Just checked week 14 and you've been posting there I was meaning [spoilers removed]"Alright, I see... (view spoiler)
***Edit 01/24/2015***
Yep, I 'did' misread it.
Took a month or so off from IJ -- the winter is robbing me of my motivation :)But now I've reached the end of this section.
I very much agree with all of the observations here, although I have to say I do feel like the story will be fairly well resolved. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I'm getting...
HUGE kudos to Rosemary for figuring out that YDAU is 2008!
Also huge kudos to whoever it was (also Rosemary maybe?) who suspected Orin way back when. It appears his complicity is all but confirmed now.
I'm puzzled by Wardine's absence as well...other than Roy Tony's small appearance at the NA meeting, I can't see how her circle is connected with the other characters' circles.
So, we have found out that Don Gately's burglary associate, Trent Kite, has met with a terrible fate with the A.F.R....and, the A.F.R. Know about Joelle's role.
Two small questions! (although obviously I am not asking for any info that's past this section)
1. How would they know about Joelle's appearance in the Entertainment? If no one can watch it? I suppose they must have access to notes about it somehow, although since it was never released I don't know how they would get this info.
2. Who is the "sartorially eccentric cranio-facial-pain-specialist" mentioned on page 721? Trent Kite's "tactical interview" provided information that led them to this person. It seems like it must be someone significant but I can't recall if we know who at this point.
If Trent Kite pawned a coffee maker stolen from DuPlessis' house, and the AFR found him that way, it seems strange that Kite would not have given up Gately's name directly...has Gately had any wheelchair sightings?
Rosemary wrote: "I like the sound of Blood Sister. I wouldn't mind watching that movie!"It sounds like a Quentin Tarantino movie! I loved it.
I really enjoyed the scene in the viewing room, as more and more students intruded on Hal's quiet time. I always love when minor characters get some spotlight, and seeing how Hal interacts with them fleshes out his character as well.
I feel like any one of the minor characters in this book could easily warrant their own novel. I wonder if there's an IJ fanfic community? I suppose probably not, but if there were I would read it.
John wrote: "1. How would they know about Joelle's appearance in the Entertainment?"Back in the IJ saddle, John. Excellent!
Yeah, I'm hesitant to start trying to answer questions off the top of my head for fear of spoilers. And as to this question, I don't remember right away without flipping back through the book so sorry I am no help with this one at the moment. And question #2 I don't remember at all... And I don't remember Gately having any wheelchair sitings?
Linda wrote: "And question #2 I don't remember at all... And I don't remember Gately having any wheelchair sitings? "I am going to check that spoiler-free annotations site if I can find it.
...Hmm, the annotations site does not explain who the "sartorially eccentric cranio-facial-pain-specialist" is. I guess it must be someone not mentioned yet?
