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Bulletin Board > Do you outline or pants? What is your writing process? Share your methods below!

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message 1: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Hi there!

I've pantsed or half-pantsed every novel I've written and am growing weary of the rewrites when I realize the story has wandered off its path. I understand the value of an outline and would love to save myself the frustration of rewrites and duplicated efforts, but I have yet to find a method that works for me. My most recent method is creating a (very) vague outline of the scenes in Excel, write as much as I can, and then backfill the outline with what I've written to keep track of the scenes for the inevitable re-rewrite. It works better for me than full-on pantsing, but I would like to challenge myself to write a more complete outline so I no longer need to endure multiple rewrites. I would rather write it correctly the first time!

So, my question to you is, what process do you use to write your novels? Do you outline? If so, what method do you use? Do you pants? If you are a pantser, how do you avoid endless rewrites while keeping the story on point? Or, like me, do you half-pants? Share your methods below -- I am overtly curious to see what others do!


message 2: by [deleted user] (last edited May 03, 2020 06:56AM) (new)

I have written up to now 26 ebooks and am working on the 27th one (mostly sci-fi and fiction). You can call me a pantser with a starting plan. If my draft is part of a series, it of course saves me from having to invent a whole new list of characters, and I continue building on their stories and adventures. If it is a stand-alone, I first take time to imagine and draw my characters, preparing character sheets for them. While I am a pantser, I cling to those character sheets and don't rewrite them, except to add more details to them. The same goes for worlds-building. One thing that is special to me (I believe) is that I also take the time at first to imagine, draw/design the new aircrafts/spaceships/boats I will use in my story, so that I keep consistent in their description (you don't want your spaceship's bridge to change decks in mid story!). Since I have a keen interest in technologies, that is part of my fun in writing ebooks. Those drawings can become as detailed as deck by deck plans of a spaceship or ship or submarine and, while I write fiction, I try as much as possible to use either existing technology or new stuff that makes sense scientifically.

Once I have chosen my main characters and thought about a general plotline, I write (on Word Docs) a very general plotline for the first chapters. I say 'first chapters' because I rarely think in detail in advance about how the book will end. Once I have started writing my draft, I let my imagination run freely and can (and do often) veer off in a new direction or add a new twist if I feel that the new idea can improve the story. That initial general plotline basically serves as a preliminary guideline, no more. While I often end up my books in a way I did not predict at first, they never end with something completely out of the blue (the readers hate that). The one thing that is constant is that the good guys/girls eventually win the day.

My advice about rewrites is: don't! Don't let yourself boxed in by your initial outline and let your imagination do the work. A rigid initial outline will kill your creativity.


message 3: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Hi Michel!

That is quite an impressive oeuvre! How long have you been writing for?

Genre does play a substantial role in the writing process now that I consider it. I write psychological thrillers and psychological dramas, so they don’t require the same level of worldbuilding that sci-fi and fantasy novels do. The genre aspect would then explain why you don’t necessarily plot the story in detail but do with the characters and the worldbuilding. Do you include those drawings in your novels like the fantasy authors do with their world maps?

I struggle with detailed long-term plotting as well. I have a general idea of where the story is going and tend to let the story lead itself. Like you said, it can vastly improve the story, and I have gained many great ideas, plot twists, and foreshadowing for sequential books in the series from it. On the flip side, I have also found that without a more detailed plot, I end up with fluff in my stories, hence the rewrites. While rewrites can be exhausting, I won’t publish anything I don’t deem to be quality, and unfortunately for me, that means rewriting my novels until I produce something I am proud of. Do you tend to use sci-fi tropes to help maintain the structure of your novels? I often wonder if the reason we are able to write novels is because of the stories we have read, as they tend to give us a general idea of story structure and tropes.


message 4: by [deleted user] (last edited May 03, 2020 08:10AM) (new)

C.M. wrote: "Hi Michel!

That is quite an impressive oeuvre! How long have you been writing for?

Genre does play a substantial role in the writing process now that I consider it. I write psychological thrille..."


First, I have been self-publishing ebooks (in English) since 2012, but actually wrote books (in French) for myself since 2006. Because of the megabit size of drawings and sketches, I am somewhat limited in incorporating them into my stories but I did put some of them (spaceship and submarine drawings, plus a depiction of an alien race I invented) in three of my ebooks. In the ebook I am working on now, I am incorporating a few images copied from Internet public sites, which necessitate less megabit space than scanned drawings. Those images show locations in the World I use in my novel (local hotels), plus images meant to depict my heroine.

About sci-fi trope, I don't consciously use them. I prefer imagining my own situations and solutions. The main characters of my ebooks are in the vast majority women who use their heads rather than their muscles to win and prevail. I despise misogyny and racism and do my best to depict women as different but equal to men in their abilities and qualities. I refuse to read authors who are blatant misogynists or are racists. The novel I am presently writing is centered on a small girl with fantastic paranormal powers being raised by her mother, herself a person of exception with a long, distinguished military career (story happens in a parallel timeline).


message 5: by Gail (new)

Gail Meath (goodreadscomgail_meath) I do so agree with you, Michel, in your first note. I guess I'm a pantser. I think about a general plot (at least to start with), but spend most of my time creating characters. Once you have a good sense of a character, knowing who they are, what they look like, behaviors, etc. They can each carry the plot through - given who they are, how would they react/not react/say/do. I try to let my formed characters guide my way rather than the other way around.


message 6: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Michel wrote: "C.M. wrote: "Hi Michel!

That is quite an impressive oeuvre! How long have you been writing for?

Genre does play a substantial role in the writing process now that I consider it. I write psycholo..."


What an accomplishment to write books in two languages while averaging more than one per year. Your new eBook sounds interesting. I might just have to add it to my list of books to read when you finish it. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and writing process -- I found them delightfully interesting.


message 7: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Gail wrote: "I do so agree with you, Michel, in your first note. I guess I'm a pantser. I think about a general plot (at least to start with), but spend most of my time creating characters. Once you have a good..."

Gail, I find that an intriguing viewpoint and one that is absolutely true. I will be adding that focus on character creation to my process, so thank you for that!

I read an interesting thought on outlining today in which a writer only outlines the "must happens," which is where my process has unknowingly drifted in recent times. I will plot what scenes/ideas must take place in the novel and then leave the rest open so that the story maintains structure and direction without compromising the flow of creativity. It seems to be a happy medium for those of us who like to pants with a bit of structure. Do you find that you plot "must have" scenes/ideas, or do you entirely let your characters lead the way?


message 8: by Ruth (new)

Ruth Mitchell | 20 comments Definitely a pantser. Writing a novel with an outline sounds like analyzing a fine wine for alcohol content. I do have an idea when I start but have no clue where it will lead me. For me the first draft is like a webbing that I fill in and improve with each sweep of editing.


message 9: by sonya (new)

sonya marie madden  | 182 comments I’m a pantser.


message 10: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Ruth wrote: "Definitely a pantser. Writing a novel with an outline sounds like analyzing a fine wine for alcohol content. I do have an idea when I start but have no clue where it will lead me. For me the first ..."

I do that as well, Ruth. Lots of rewriting/editing, but that is how I explore and improve the story. Thank you for sharing!


message 11: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Sonya wrote: "I’m a pantser."

That appears to be a popular theme here today! Do you have a general idea of where the story is going, or do you let the story guide itself?


message 12: by sonya (new)

sonya marie madden  | 182 comments I let the characters guide the story.


message 13: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Sonya wrote: "I let the characters guide the story."

Very nice.


message 14: by G.R. (new)

G.R. Paskoff (grpaskoff) | 64 comments Hi, C.M.,

Like you, I am a seat of the pants writer with the basic plot fleshed out. I know how the story starts and how it ends and have an idea for several of the 'critical' scenes that take place in the middle. I have some minor plot points or dialogue figured out ahead of time but for the most part I imagine the story like a jigsaw puzzle. I see the image on the box so I know how it's supposed to come out in the end, but then I have to reach into my mind and find all the right pieces to make it fit. Sometimes the pieces are not what I expected.

As for character development, I agree with others. It is very important to 'know' who your main characters are. I write SF/F so world-building is very important. I reached a point in the current novel I'm writing where I hadn't developed the world or the characters, so I was at an all-stop. I decided to write a stand-alone short story devoted entirely to this new world and the characters in it. It took some unexpected turns but enabled me to achieve my goal and get back to the main novel. I plan to include the short story as bonus material when I am finished with the novel.


message 15: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments G.R. wrote: "Hi, C.M.,

Like you, I am a seat of the pants writer with the basic plot fleshed out. I know how the story starts and how it ends and have an idea for several of the 'critical' scenes that take pla..."


Hi G.R.,
A jigsaw puzzle is a splendid analogy, and it articulates the writing process you and I use perfectly. I love the idea of using your short story as bonus material, that is always fun! Thank you for sharing your process!


message 16: by Jim (last edited May 04, 2020 07:32AM) (new)

Jim Vuksic | 1227 comments I did create a brief rough outline while preparing to write my one and only novel; however, the entire process took 11 months to create a final, polished manuscript which I felt worthy of publication.

I still have four drafts of completed manuscripts. A copy of each was sent to my four adult children for evaluation and input. Many of their observations and suggestions were incorporated into the final manuscript. Some of my best ideas have come from others.

My one and only novel will also be the last. There are far too many other worthwhile things to do and places to visit and so little time.

Although not a commercial success, that one and only novel did sell far more units than I had anticipated it would. I wrote it just to see if I could.

During its 5 1/2 years of commercial availability the following number of units were sold and royalties paid to me:
Total: 1,029 Units - $2,358.34 (Royalties Paid) Aug. 9, 2011 through Dec. 31, 2016
Paperback: 485 (47.1%) $1,547.34
E-Book: 480 (46.7%) $584.43
Audio on CD: 36 (3.5%) $134.17
Audio Download: 28 (2.7%) $92.40

As in my case, very few novice authors ever achieve commercial success within this extremely competitive field. That said; some have. There is no reason why you may not eventually become one of them. I wish you success.


message 17: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Jim wrote: "I did create a brief rough outline while preparing to write my one and only novel; however, the entire process took 11 months to create a final, polished manuscript which I felt worthy of publicati..."

Hi Jim,
Feedback is imperative, and it does make all the difference. What method did you use to outline? i.e. 5-Beat Outline, Snowflake Method, etc.

Congratulations on the sales! Success would be lovely, but I would be happy to simply break even on my publishing costs and entertain a few readers while doing so.


message 18: by Stephen (new)

Stephen Mills (mayhemmills) | 19 comments I’ve tried plot maps, outlines, Post-Its, and PowerPoint slides. In the end my stories write themselves and never end up the way I had imagined at the start.


message 19: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Stephen wrote: "I’ve tried plot maps, outlines, Post-Its, and PowerPoint slides. In the end my stories write themselves and never end up the way I had imagined at the start."

You are not alone, Stephen! Do you outline/note critical scenes that must happen, or pants the story beginning to end?


message 20: by Pamela (new)

Pamela Harju (pamelaharju) | 41 comments I'm more of a pantser, which continues to surprise me because I'm stupidly organised with everything else in my life! I do plan, but only in my head. If I try any other way, I just freeze. It takes all the fun out of it for me.
Having said that, I do few rewrites, and what I do is mostly tidying up and making sure there are no plot holes, but the story doesn't really change. I usually write my first draft quite slowly, one scene at a time mostly, so that I have time to plan my next move before I sit down to write again.


message 21: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Pamela wrote: "I'm more of a pantser, which continues to surprise me because I'm stupidly organised with everything else in my life! I do plan, but only in my head. If I try any other way, I just freeze. It takes..."

Hi Pamela!

I too am organized with everything else in my life. Do you plan other things in your life from start to finish, or do you handle tasks more like writing where you have a general plan in your head and go with that?

Yes, rewrites are crucial for filling in plot holes and also ensuring everything in the story has a purpose. On the downside, they are time-consuming.


message 22: by Stephen (new)

Stephen Mills (mayhemmills) | 19 comments C.M. wrote: "Stephen wrote: "I’ve tried plot maps, outlines, Post-Its, and PowerPoint slides. In the end my stories write themselves and never end up the way I had imagined at the start."

You are not alone, St..."


My outlines are usually vague and by chapter. It helps me keep loosely on track without sacrificing creativity. Usually, though, I’ll revise the outline to match the story as it evolves lol.


message 23: by [deleted user] (new)

Pamela wrote: "I'm more of a pantser, which continues to surprise me because I'm stupidly organised with everything else in my life! I do plan, but only in my head. If I try any other way, I just freeze. It takes..."

You shouldn't be surprised by that, Pamela: you just can't 'organize' imagination. As for my initial outlines, they are limited to a page or two (on paper) of written ideas for separate chapters.


message 24: by A.L. (new)

A.L. O'Connor (allisonmorgenthalergmailcom) | 7 comments I’m a very organized writer. I start with the idea. Can it be massaged into a working plot or not. When the idea is fluffed out with research and time spent online my first choice, in the library, or my library of papers, thanks to downloaded papers from Academia papers I’ve been collecting since I’ve begun writing my books on Rome and the Celts.
Once I’ve done the research then I sit down and work out a plot outline going chapter by chapter. I’ve been successful in this method. I have completed the sequel to my book The Eagle In Green Man’s Clearing called The Eagle And The Colonia. I have the third and fourth in the series’ fifth plot outlines completed and the idea for the last book percolating in my head.


message 25: by Jim (last edited May 04, 2020 10:23AM) (new)

Jim Vuksic | 1227 comments C.M. wrote: "Jim wrote: "I did create a brief rough outline while preparing to write my one and only novel; however, the entire process took 11 months to create a final, polished manuscript which I felt worthy ..."

C.M.,

The one-page outline was actually more of a compilation of handwritten notes. It consisted of the following:
- Each of the main character's basic personality traits, strengths and weaknesses, and a physical description.
- Significant contributions and initial reaction regarding travels, emotional impact and personality evolution directly related to interaction and shared experiences with the other main characters.
- A rough timeline and notes regarding continuity to avoid incidents of inconsistency or apparent contradictions.

Regarding your comment pertaining to recovering publishing costs, my total costs equaled $3,980 (copy editor, conceptual editor, graphic design artist, layout design artist, professional narrator, promotion, and marketing). So, subtracting the royalties paid ($2,358.34), I lost $1,621.66. However, I personally consider the experience and end result well worth the price paid.


message 26: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Stephen wrote: "C.M. wrote: "Stephen wrote: "I’ve tried plot maps, outlines, Post-Its, and PowerPoint slides. In the end my stories write themselves and never end up the way I had imagined at the start."

You are ..."


I too revise the outline as I write. It helps with revisions!


message 27: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Allison wrote: "I’m a very organized writer. I start with the idea. Can it be massaged into a working plot or not. When the idea is fluffed out with research and time spent online my first choice, in the library, ..."

Hi Allison!
You do sound immensely organized. Do you find outlining in that much detail stunts your creativity or, because your novels are more researched-based, do you find the detail helps you write? What method do you use to outline?


message 28: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Jim wrote: "C.M. wrote: "Jim wrote: "I did create a brief rough outline while preparing to write my one and only novel; however, the entire process took 11 months to create a final, polished manuscript which I..."

It appears that even those of us who like to write by the seat of our pants require some variation of structure, whether it is a few notes or a detailed character list. That way, like you said, we can avoid contradictions and inconsistencies.

Ahh, hiring a narrator would skyrocket your publishing costs. Did you go through ACX? I'm glad you found the experience worthwhile despite the financial loss. Is there a reason you only ran the book from 2011 to 2016?


message 29: by Elizabeth (new)

Elizabeth Merry (merryelizabeth) | 12 comments I always write an outline - very general at first, to set out the shape of the story, then I do a more detailed one. Then I list my characters with all their lives, past and present. After that I'll do a final chapter by chapter outline. This all takes a great deal of time. When I'm finally ready to begin actually writing, I plan to write 1,000 words a day. Sometimes that takes all day, sometimes less but I always stop at 1,000, and also at a place where I'll easily be able to begin again the next day. I dislike this first creative writing output but when I have the first draft finished I'm euphoric and can spend hours and hours re-writing, editing etc. By that time the original outline may have changed, but I always need it there to begin with. #CoDownWriter


message 30: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Elizabeth wrote: "I always write an outline - very general at first, to set out the shape of the story, then I do a more detailed one. Then I list my characters with all their lives, past and present. After that I'l..."

That is very interesting, Elizabeth! The process does sound tedious, but I'm glad you find it worthwhile at the end. Thank you for sharing your process!


message 31: by Alicia (new)

Alicia Ehrhardt (aliciabutcherehrhardt) Anyone else here plot with Dramatica? And keep everything orderly with it? That plus Scrivener - and I'm an extreme plotter.


message 32: by Jim (last edited May 05, 2020 09:20AM) (new)

Jim Vuksic | 1227 comments C.M. wrote: "Jim wrote: "C.M. wrote: "Jim wrote: "I did create a brief rough outline while preparing to write my one and only novel; however, the entire process took 11 months to create a final, polished manusc..."

C.M.,

Responding to your questions in Message 28 :

- The publisher provided brief biographies of three professional narrators (2 male & 1 female) which included audio samples of their previous work plus phone and e-mail contact information for each. I chose the one which I personally considered more appropriate to narrate my novel.

Referencing Message 16, you will note that sales of the audio book on CD and audio book download only provided a total of 6.2% (64 units of 1,029) of total sales and $226.57 in royalties.

- Commercial availability of all four formats of the novel, through both physical and on-line vendors, ended Dec. 31, 2016 when the publisher officially filed for bankruptcy. (Probably due to taking on too many authors like myself.)

Jim Vuksic


message 33: by Bruce (new)

Bruce E. | 159 comments I don't know what to call myself. Since I wished to write a fictional history of a small portion of our galaxy, I sat down and wrote a point by point outline from 200,000 years ago to about 5000 years ago Then I highlighted part of the outline that I thought I would write stories about in detail. Characters sort of evolved. I plugged in some short stories I'd written for myself about the galaxy. I wrote maybe 2/3 of my novel, didn't like it and started over with the outline somewhere in the back of my mind. When I had pretty well finished, I decided it was way, way too long and broke it into four books, rewriting some as I did that. So what ever process that is called, it led to four books, not entirely linear in narrating the history.


message 34: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Alicia wrote: "Anyone else here plot with Dramatica? And keep everything orderly with it? That plus Scrivener - and I'm an extreme plotter."

Hi Alicia!

I have tried Dramatica before, but found it killed my creativity. I felt like it backed me into a corner and wouldn't let me go down my own path and instead forced me into more of a hero's journey type of outline. Do you find it contains that strict structure as well, or is there a way to go about it more creatively?

I have heard many writer's recommend Scrivener and I have looked into it a bit. Do you use that to plot, in addition to Dramatica, or do you use it mainly for its notes and writing the manuscript itself?


message 35: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Jim wrote: "C.M. wrote: "Jim wrote: "C.M. wrote: "Jim wrote: "I did create a brief rough outline while preparing to write my one and only novel; however, the entire process took 11 months to create a final, po..."

The publisher made you pay for everything? I am under the impression that traditional publishers front the publishing costs and pay you, not the other way around. Do you own the publishing rights now?


message 36: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Bruce wrote: "I don't know what to call myself. Since I wished to write a fictional history of a small portion of our galaxy, I sat down and wrote a point by point outline from 200,000 years ago to about 5000 ye..."

Hi Bruce!

That sounds like quite a bit of work plotting that history out! You're definitely a plotter if you can do that. If you wrote your novel by the seat of your pants (no outline) then you would be a pantser. If you were like some of us here who have a bit of a plan but leave most of the story open for creativity, I suppose you could call us Plantsers (pantsers who plan.) I thought I was original with this word, but it appears to exist already.


message 37: by [deleted user] (new)

Bruce wrote: "I don't know what to call myself. Since I wished to write a fictional history of a small portion of our galaxy, I sat down and wrote a point by point outline from 200,000 years ago to about 5000 ye..."

That was one hell of an ambitious project, Bruce. Bravo! By history of the galaxy, did you mean strictly the Solar System or a larger volume of Space?


message 38: by Jim (last edited May 05, 2020 04:52PM) (new)

Jim Vuksic | 1227 comments C.M. wrote: "Jim wrote: "C.M. wrote: "Jim wrote: "C.M. wrote: "Jim wrote: "I did create a brief rough outline while preparing to write my one and only novel; however, the entire process took 11 months to create..."

C.M.,

Responding to your inquiry in Message 35.

The publisher was a vanity press. They provided the contact information which allowed me to research and then interview a number of candidates for copy editing, conceptual editing, graphic design, layout design, website design/maintenance, and professional narration and then subcontract the individuals chosen to perform the task at hand.

The publisher funded all material, production, promotional, marketing, and distribution costs for four formats: paperback books, e-books, audio book on CD, and audio book download. Distribution and placement in book stores and on-line in the U.S, Canada, the U.K., Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand was included.

I received quarterly sales reports detailing the number of units sold by format and a royalty check during the 5 1/2 years of commercial availability.

By contract, I retained the copyright and ISBN and continue to do so. If the novel had sold a minimum of 5,000 units, which would have allowed the publisher to recoup their share of the initial costs, I would have had my initial investment fully refunded in addition to the royalties paid up to that point and in the future.

Unfortunately, only 1,029 units had been sold while commercially available.

I believe the quality of the advice and work performed by the professionals mentioned in the first paragraph was well worth my initial investment of $3,980, especially considering the $2,358.34 recouped through royalties received. I believe the $1,621.66 not recouped was well worth the experience gained and satisfaction in knowing that over 1,000 people were willing to purchase and read or listen to my novel.


message 39: by Deborah (new)

Deborah Lagarde (deb_lagarde) | 116 comments Both plotter and pantser (plantser?), which are terms I never heard of until I came here to Goodreads. As for howI write, I let the good spirits guide me. (BTW, I am Christian, but anyway...). As for how I write, here is my website: https://omegabooksnet.com. The "snippet" posts pretty much explain things, plus I do a lot of research on the issues I need to research, including history and spiritual (including Bible) stuff.


message 40: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Jim wrote: "C.M. wrote: "Jim wrote: "C.M. wrote: "Jim wrote: "C.M. wrote: "Jim wrote: "I did create a brief rough outline while preparing to write my one and only novel; however, the entire process took 11 mon..."

Ah, I see. Would you consider self-publishing now that the company has gone bankrupt and you hold the rights?


message 41: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Deborah wrote: "Both plotter and pantser (plantser?), which are terms I never heard of until I came here to Goodreads. As for howI write, I let the good spirits guide me. (BTW, I am Christian, but anyway...). As f..."

Hi Deborah!
With your writings based on research, history, and spiritualism, it would make sense that you would need at least some structure.

Off topic; is that a Percheron on the left in your profile image?


message 42: by Jim (new)

Jim Vuksic | 1227 comments C.M. wrote: "Jim wrote: "C.M. wrote: "Jim wrote: "C.M. wrote: "Jim wrote: "C.M. wrote: "Jim wrote: "I did create a brief rough outline while preparing to write my one and only novel; however, the entire process..."

C.M.,

Responding to your inquiry in message 40:

Experience has taught me that publishing, promotion, and marketing requires a lot of time, effort, and focus.

There are just too many other interesting things to do and places to visit toward which I now prefer to expend my time, effort, and focus.


message 43: by Alicia (last edited May 05, 2020 11:45PM) (new)

Alicia Ehrhardt (aliciabutcherehrhardt) C.M. wrote: "Alicia wrote: "Anyone else here plot with Dramatica? And keep everything orderly with it? That plus Scrivener - and I'm an extreme plotter."

Hi Alicia!

I have tried Dramatica before, but found i..."


If you gave it a good try, and it wasn't your style, I'm not proselytizing. It requires a serious commitment, though the result is fractal, and you can make it work at different levels of depth and detial.

Plotting that way gives me a solid structure, in my case for a trilogy, where everything that needs to be connected is set up, and I know the plot will work, from beginning to end.

Then I can set about making each of the planned scenes as pivotal and as well-written as I have trained myself to do in the past 25 years of writing. But I don't waste time wandering around, looking for the story or the characters, because those are created, tested, and defined first.

Dramatica has a query system which results in me having explored most of what I could possibly need for this story before I write, and in my writing time I can trust it will work. It answers who what, where, when, and why.

The how is still very important, and that's what readers absorb, but they don't realize that the understructure is solid first. So they take it for granted when it works (assuming I do the rest of my job when I do the writing).

Balance, size, scale, proportion, main and secondary characters and plotlines - all more or less set out from the beginning.

It's not most people's way of operating, so I was asking who else did this.

To answer your question: I make it do exactly what I need - and then I'm amazed by what else pops up in the cross-connections. I've written a couple of posts about how I use it. My blog is liebjabberings.wordpress.com; type Dramatica into the search bar.

And my Scrivener files are huge: everything goes into the same file, research, text, notes, photos, character studies - you name it, it's in there. Doesn't even stumble when my text file is 100MB. That's a lot of text, and I've typed it in myself; Scrivener makes it easy to organize and locate, and I put everything I write, in or out of the story, in the Scrivener file.


message 44: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Jim wrote: "C.M. wrote: "Jim wrote: "C.M. wrote: "Jim wrote: "C.M. wrote: "Jim wrote: "C.M. wrote: "Jim wrote: "I did create a brief rough outline while preparing to write my one and only novel; however, the e..."

They certainly do take quite a bit of time. If you are ever inclined, it is quite easy to publish through Amazon, especially if you already have the files and book cover, and you don't necessarily need to promote it. But, if your heart isn't in it, I understand wanting to focus on other interests.


message 45: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Alicia wrote: "C.M. wrote: "Alicia wrote: "Anyone else here plot with Dramatica? And keep everything orderly with it? That plus Scrivener - and I'm an extreme plotter."

Hi Alicia!

I have tried Dramatica before..."


That is a lot of great information, Alicia! I will look into the writings you have about Dramatica on your blog, thank you. I might take another look at Dramatica and see if it can help any, as well as Scrivener.


message 46: by Bruce (last edited May 06, 2020 08:16AM) (new)

Bruce E. | 159 comments Michel asked me whether my history of the galaxy involved just our solar system or outer space I will answer using a quote from my third book:

“How many planets are there that they know have reasonably advanced DNA life?”
“You mean diploid?”
“I guess I do. Let’s say I do.”
“Somewhere around 100, plus or minus a few. Mind you, we haven’t even tried to check every star, even on this slice of the galaxy. Probably, out of ten million stars someone has checked about five hundred thousand that have planets and about three thousand that have possibly suitable planets. About a quarter of those were only considered, suitable for colonization or enhancement. By no means were all of those ersatz”ie. That’s only in our sector of the galaxy, about nine or ten percent.”


message 47: by [deleted user] (new)

I write sci-fi and the subject of extraterrestrial life in other star systems fascinates me (no, I'm not talking about UFOs, which I don't believe in because of the impossible distances involved to travel between stars). On how abundant life is in the Universe, I follow an optimistic premise: life will find a way. As for intelligent life, I profoundly disagree with the attitudes of so many people who use the Bible or religion to speculate about extraterrestrial life: I don't ask myself if such life is possible, but rather how many of it there is. Thus, when I write sci-fi, while I try to respect the actual limits of science, I let my imagination work full steam ahead. I do however carefully research astronomical data before writing, in order to choose the most probable star systems that could harbor life.

While I am a pantser, I strongly believe in doing extensive research before writing a novel and I often take as much or more time to do my research (via books or, most often Internet searches) than I take to write my novels. This gives me a solid, dependable basis for my story and also gives it an air of authenticity. For example, in the novel I am presently writing, the heroine and her daughter travel to Iran in 1985 (alternate timeline, no Islamic Revolution) and I featured as their hotel they stayed in an actual, ancient hotel in Isfahan, which I found adds a nice, exotic touch to the story. I also attached to the story small pictures of the places they visited. In my opinion, writing a book and fudging the details or making up details that could have been researched is a mark of amateurism. I am especially critical of authors who can't be bothered to do their research when writing military fiction or war and serve pure B.S. (no, tanks don't have meter-thick steel armor, as some idiot once wrote in his novel on WW2).


message 48: by D. (new)

D. Powell (dowenpowell) | 8 comments I tend to take it by the seat of my pants. There's adventure in being a "pantser". Like life or Forrest Gump's box of chocolates... cause you'll not know what your are gonna get till it jumps off the page right at ya.
When stumped on which way the story is going to go, I dream on it. Works every time, but if I don't get out of bed and write it down it usually vanishes in Never land and I'll have to dream on it again. That's my story, and the pants don't appear to wear out:)


message 49: by C.M. (new)

C.M. Rushi (cmrushi) | 40 comments Ah, yes. Most ideas do tend to vanish if not written down accordingly. I'm glad you have something that works for you!


message 50: by Alan (last edited May 06, 2020 04:13PM) (new)

Alan Hesse (alanjhesse) | 2 comments I always plan my books in great detail. The reason I do this is because I create educational comics, or graphic novels. I do all the research, writing and drawing and design myself, so I can't afford to get it wrong!
The first thing I do once I have the general idea for the book is research the technical content. This includes a lot of secondary research using internet, reading papers, blogs, newsletters etc, and also some primary research in the form of talking to / interviewing subject matter experts.
Once I have the technical content I start to draft my story, which needs to be entertaining, a rollicking adventure full of humour, exotic locations and crazy characters. Since my audience is children, I need to get that 'edutainment' mix just right.
I write out the plot following the '3 acts of storytelling' principles employed by screen writers for action movies. The objective is to give my readers a roller coaster ride while also learning a ton of important things (my focus right now is climate change and the environment). This means combining adventure and humour passages with the insertion of technical information. I use a lot of footnotes and usually a glossary at the back of the book to facilitate this. Everything has to be written taking into account the age range of my audience (9-12 yrs).
Once I have a clear plot, characters and dialogues that include the technical content, I am ready to draft a story board. I do this on paper, just small sketches. This enables me to plan exactly how each frame looks. This is important when I locate the speech bubbles later.
Then I can start the artwork, which can take several months. This leads on to editing and coloring in Photoshop, and finally the layout of the book using InDesign.


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