Glens Falls (NY) Online Book Discussion Group discussion
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ABOUT BOOKS AND READING
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What are you reading these days? (Part ELEVEN (2015) ongoing thread for 2015
I think that being able to draw or paint is a wonderful outlet. It occupies your mind completely, a very absorbing activity. And no words are needed! LOLWhen I was a kid, I drew a sketch of my grandfather and was amazed at how much like him it looked. I never showed it to anyone and I probably discarded it. I regret that. Funny the things we remember.
I wanted a set of oil paints and one was given to me. It consisted of little tubes of colored oil paint in a lovely wooden box. Also a board of some sort meant for the picture. No one ever showed me what to do with them or how to go about getting started. So I never touched them. I guess I should have asked. :)
PS-What I can't understand is how people are able to sculpt life-like figures. Now THAT'S a talent!
Joy, I love your poems. And I admire anyone who teaches except the Atlanta ones who cheated. They did the kids no favors.
Joy, your last comment puts me in mind of my daughter when she was four years old. Her father had just finished painting her room a light pink color the day before and when I went to her room to check on her I saw to my dismay she had drawn curtains and shades in green crayon all over the walls. I told her she must wash it all off before he father came home. She was unable to get the job done and when her dad returned and saw what she'd done he said, "She is pretty good. We should send her to art school." And we did and she loved it and eventually grew up to be an elementery art teacher for twenty years. End of story.
I am overstating but when I saw "David" I had tears because of it's beauty. And such skill as M...is mind boggling.
Nina wrote: "Joy, your last comment puts me in mind of my daughter when she was four years old. Her father had just finished painting her room a light pink color the day before and when I went to her room to ch..."A wonderful story, Nina!
Today I would like to quote from a column in our morning newspaper by Charles Krauthammer. He extols the virtues of the production of the novel, "Wolf Hall," currently showing on Masterpiece theater. He says it is maddeningly good despite the fact that the hustory it gives is somewhat distorted; most dramtically the conflict between Sir Thomas More and Thomas Cromwell. I now quote him: "Faced with an imaginative creation of such brooding, gripping mordant intensity, you find yourself ready to pay for it in historical inaccuracy. And Wolf Hall's revisionism is breathtaking. This is fiction as polemic. However, Wolf Hall, poses questions not just political but literary. When such a distortion of history produces such a wonderfully succcessful piece of fiction, we are forced to ask: What license are we to grant to the historical novel? For all the learned ansers, i realityit comes down to temporal proximity. If the event is in the recent past, you'd better be accurate. On the other hand, does anyone care that Shakespeare diverges for the record(such as it is) in his Caesar or Macbeth or Henrys? Time turns them to legend. We don't feel ti much matter anymore. Ther is the historical Caesar and ther is Shakespeare's Caesar. The live side by side. To with the different versions of MOre and Cromwell. Let them live side by side. Wolf Hall is utterly compelling, but I, nonetheless, refuse to renounce "A Man for All Seasons,' and I'll live with boht Mores, both Cromwells. After all, fo rcentures we're accetpted that light is both wave and particle. If physics can live with maddening truths, why can't literature and history?" Werner I am anzious to hear what you have to say about this subject and Joy and Jim do you have an opinion? In the novel More comes across almost as much as a villian. I sort of read this book. I didn't like it but I read enough passages of it that I almost finished it. The author, Hilary Mantel is an ex-Catholic. Here is one quote of hers, "The Catholic Church is not an institution for respectable people." I feel her opinions permeated this novel.
Nina, I haven't read Wolf Hall, so I don't have any opinion about it specifically. As to the general question of whether or not historical novelists need to faithful to the facts as far as they're known, I come down on the pro-factual side (that probably reflects the history major in me). Unlike Charles Krauthammer, I don't personally think that temporal proximity makes any difference. Many people have the opinion that events in the time that they personally lived through are important, relevant and real, but that anything before that is just a vague Never-Never Land of myth and legend that doesn't amount to a hill of beans anyway. IMO, that's a shortsighted and solipsistic view that thrives best among the historically ignorant. All of the past is a seamless process that shapes the present; refusing to consider it doesn't help us any in understanding the present. Literary art is about both truth and beauty; departing from the first, from laziness or desire to distort, flaws the other.Appealing to the example of Shakespeare hurts Krauthammer's case more than it helps. The history in his plays may be far removed from modern audiences --but in the case of, say, Richard III, it was relatively recent when he wrote it, and the pro-Tudor axe he's grinding (to use on Richard) had a very significant immediate political agenda. Sanctifying the propaganda as "great art" doesn't make it any less propaganda. My advice to writers who want to write "wonderfully successful" historical fiction made up out of whole cloth is: fine, go ahead --but refrain from using real people's names when you do it. I don't regard that as an unreasonable position; as the saying goes, "your mileage may vary."
Nina, I haven't read Wolf Hall and I haven't seen the TV series. I think Werner's comment makes a lot of sense. However, I'm one of those who is apt to enjoy fictionalized history, despite its inaccuracies. The word "fictionalized" is enough for me. :) I always figure that something that is fictionalized can't be all true. However, it would be nice to know that at least the historical background facts are true, even if the plot might veer in a minor way from the exact way things happened in the life of the real historical characters named in the book.There's something to be admired when a writer uses his imagination to flesh out historical figures for us. That's why we use the word "fictionalized". A good example of this is The Master. In the book, Toibin imitates Henry James' style as he tells this fictionalized biography of part of Henry James' life. Toibin even gives us an idea of what Henry James' inner thoughts might have been. I found it fascinating, even though I knew it was fictionalized. See my review at: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
BTW, you might be interested in what I wrote in my "review" of A Man for All Seasons by Robert Bolt (since it treats the same historical era as Wolf Hall). See the link to my review at: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Thank you Werner and Joy for your comments regarding the Novel "Wolf Hall." In the Masterpiece theater and also the novel Thomas More is protrayed as a cruel man who personally condems to death the infidels and his personality is made to look quite mean. It puts me in mind of the movie, "Selma." In it President Johnson is also protrayed as an enemy of King and that wasn't true. He even tried to get the Civil Rights bill passed. I wasn't a fan of Johnson but that was unfair politcally.
Joy wrote: There's something to be admired when a writer uses his imagination to flesh out historical figures for us. That's why we use the word 'fictionalized.'"I absolutely agree; in historical fiction, we expect the author to fill in the blanks between the facts, as it were, with invented dialogue and internal thoughts on the part of the characters, imaginative reconstruction, speculation about what might have gone on in private, etc. All of this is perfectly fine in historical fiction. (Say, having a brave knight gallop up to the block, snatch Ann Boleyn to his saddle, and carry her off into the sunset to live happily ever after --not so much. Unless it's an alternate history. :-) )
Nina, as I said, I haven't read Wolf Hall (or ever seen Selma). That said, whenever historical novelists move beyond objective historical facts to trying to divine internal motives and personalities of historical figures, they're in a grayer area, where things will be shaped by their own attitudes, bias, and literary purpose. (Although even there, the opinions of peoples' contemporaries as to their character counts for something, IMO.) We know that as Lord Chancellor, More administered the laws of the day, which prescribed the death penalty for heresy, and described himself as "formidable to heretics." I sincerely doubt that he was "cruel" in the sense of taking any pleasure in sentencing anybody to death for anything; the estimation of his character by people who knew him militates against that. But I could imagine that some Protestants in his time might have regarded him as cruel.
I finished Hornblower and the Hotspur, the third of the series chronologically. I had to read a short story & received a bit of whiplash at the start, but it was a great read. I gave it 4 stars here:https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
In the Hornblower movie entitled "Horatio Hornblower: The New Adventures" (2003), which I watched yesterday via a DVD from our public library, they showed him getting married to a sweet girl named Maria. Hornblower is played by actor Ioan Gruffudd. Below is an IMDb movie link which shows him and his bride:http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0352410/?...
IMDb calls the movie: "Hornblower: Duty" (2003).
I just put The Forever King on my "maybe to read" shelf, Jackie!
Joy H. wrote: Jackie wrote: "The Forever King wound up being good; I've started the next book in the series: The Broken Sword"
"Werner wrote: "I just put The Forever King on my "maybe to read" shelf, Jackie!"
I just skimmed through the preview of The Forever King which GR offers on the book's GR page. That certainly is a contemporary beginning for a book about King Arthur! I thought I was looking at the wrong book! Of course they chopped off the preview just when I was getting curious. I didn't care for the contemporary beginning.
PS-Jackie, does the story stay contemporary?
Books with contemporary settings aren't my favorite thing but every once in a while I find a good one. I'm currently bogged down in Mozart's Sister by Nancy Moser. I hate getting bogged down in a book.I started reading My Wicked, Wicked Ways by Errol Flynn. It's an old book but has promise.
Am also slowly going through Niv by Graham Lord, a biog of David Niven.
Also listening to The Man Who Saw a Ghost: The Life and Work of Henry Fonda and also to Frank: The Voice.
So I have enough to keep me busy! :)
Joy H. wrote: "In the Hornblower movie entitled "Horatio Hornblower: The New Adventures" (2003), which I watched yesterday via a DVD from our public library, they showed him getting married to a sweet girl named ..."It must be one of the ones we didn't watch. In the last episode they never mentioned a wedding or bride just that he was now a Captain with his own ship. I guess we missed the romance. I am curious/do you remember if that one had subtitles?
Nina, below are the 6 different 1998 Horatio Hornblower episodes available from Netflix starring Ioan Gruffudd. The series is called "Horatio Hornblower":Disc 1 includes "The Duel".
Disc 2 includes "The Fire Ship".
Disc 3 includes "The Duchess and the Devil".
Disc 4 includes "The Wrong War".
Disc 5 includes "The Mutiny".
Disc 6 includes "The Retribution".
Do you recognize any of those?
The Netflix link is: http://dvd.netflix.com/Movie/Horatio-...
To answer your question, I don't think the movie with Gregory Peck as Hornblower had subtitles. I got it from our public library.
PS-Netflix has another Hornblower series with Ioan Gruffudd. It has 2 discs and was made in 2003. It's entitled: "Horatio Hornblower: The New Adventures".Disc 1 includes the full-length film "Loyalty".
Disc 2 includes the full-length film "Duty.
Do you recognize those?
The Netflix link is: http://dvd.netflix.com/Movie/Horatio-...
Joy H. wrote: "Nina, below are the 6 different 1998 Horatio Hornblower episodes available from Netflix starring Ioan Gruffudd. The series is called "Horatio Hornblower":Joy, this is the series we watched. We didn't watch # 5. In the # 4 was when Hornblower fell in love with the young village killed who was killed in his arms. It must have been in the next disc that he fell in love again and married. As I mentioned in # 6(last one) there was no mention of a bride or wedding reception. Also, I hadn't realized this series was after not before the Gregory Peck film.Disc 1 includes "The Duel".
Disc 2 includ..."
Joy H. wrote: "Nina, below are the 6 different 1998 Horatio Hornblower episodes available from Netflix starring Ioan Gruffudd. The series is called "Horatio Hornblower":Irecognize all of those titles and they are the ones we saw with the exception of 3 5 disc. I don't recognize the other titlee you posted.Disc 1 includes "The Duel".
Disc 2 includ..."
Nina wrote: "Joy H. wrote: "Nina, below are the 6 different 1998 Horatio Hornblower episodes available from Netflix starring Ioan Gruffudd. The series is called "Horatio Hornblower" ...Nina wrote: I recognize all of those titles and they are the ones we saw with the exception of...
Nina, you've seen a lot of Hornblower stories! How many Netflix stars would you give them?
I would give the first three five stars. The fouth one titled, "The Wrong War," was a bit confusing to me as to the historical content. I didn't remember that the British who were fighting France as their enemy in the Napoleonic war joined some French forces to fight other Frenchmen.But, the acting was good. Then we got # 6 disc a week before # 5 and it too was difficult to understand. There had been a mutiny, apparently, in # 5 but we weren't sure why or what happened next. Because of all of this I think I'd give # 6 three stars. I hope I am making sense to you.
Thanks for your ratings, Nina. I guess the first 3 were the best for you. The others, not so much.
Joy, that's correct and another way of my looking at them was by the time we got to the fourth, it was almost like too much of a good thing.
Nina wrote: "Joy, that's correct and another way of my looking at them was by the time we got to the fourth, it was almost like too much of a good thing."I know what you mean, Nina. Sometimes when you keep seeing the same characters in the same settings, you get tired of them.
Joy, "The Girl on the Train," was grim but you never forgot the characters and you just had to keep going to the end of the book. I also felt that way about the characters in "The Nightengale."
I'm not into "grim" characters, Nina. Although last night I watched the film, "Still Life" (2013) and although it was grim, I couldn't stop watching. So I know what you mean. Here's info re the movie:"Still Life" (2013)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2395417/?...
"A council case worker looks for the relatives of those found dead and alone."
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00S...
http://dvd.netflix.com/Search?v1=stil...
I expected, "The Girl on the Train," would be entirely different when I bought it but after I got it I started reading it and couldn't stop but I don't recommend it.
Although, the movie, "Still Life" was sad, it didn't turn me off the way other grim movies do. There was something very appealing about the case worker. They cast him perfectly! He really touched your heart. The whole movie reached your heart-strings. Such sad realities.PS-I streamed it via Amazon Prime.
I spent a wonderfully entertaining weekend with William Shatner reading me his autobiography Up Till Now. Interesting guy with a great work ethic, impulse control issues, & a sense of adventure. It was 4 stars easy. My review is here:https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
I spent a wonderfully entertaining weekend with William Shatner reading me his autobiography Up Till Now. Interesting guy with a great work ethic, impulse control issues, & a sense of adventure. It was 4 stars easy. My review is here:https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Jim, I enjoyed your review of Shatner's "Up Till Now". I had listened to the audiobook a while ago. He's entertaining but the disjointedness bothered me. As I said in my own review, Shatner is apt to go off on tangents. Even though the tangents are usually interesting, I prefer a more organized format.
Yes, his anecdotes got off track, even more toward the end. I knocked a star off for that & the repetition it created. I was absolutely chortling as he tells of some of the decisions he made that seemed like a good idea at the time. It made me feel so much better about myself. I thought I was dumb & impetuous (OK, I am.) but he pulled some stunts that were fantastically stupid, especially given his fear of heights. But he took responsibility for them & made it work, even though he was practically peeing in his pants with fear &/or pain. I have to admire a man like that.
I'd love to have him over for dinner sometime, but I doubt I'd want him around much longer than that. I don't think he leaves those around him much room to breath easy. He says his latest wife, Elizabeth (not to be confused with his daughter of the same name) had trouble distinguishing between him & Denny Crane. No doubt. He also says Denny Crane is simply an overblown version of himself. I doubt he needed to add much air. He's obnoxiously self absorbed, no doubt, but he also has a child-like sense of adventure that I admire.
Jim, Shatner has a great sense of humor and a great sense of the ridiculous. He always seems to be laughing at himself.
Not everyone is able to laugh at themselves.I think it's a gift.
I am finding "The Map of Betrayal," fascinating so far and it isn't hard to understand the espionage so you might try it.
Nina, I've got it on my to-read list. Meanwhile, I'm enjoying Fonda: My Life. It's much MUCH MORE enjoyable than The Man Who Saw a Ghost: The Life and Work of Henry Fonda.My Life is written so that it almost seems like a good novel (instead of a straight-forward autobiography). You learn about Fonda's life events but the material is presented in a very story-like style. It's hard to explain the style.
I like Henry Fonda so I'll keep that in mind, especially as you say it is well written.
Now that I am almost finished with the book, "The Map of Betrayal," I am not recommending it. It seemed cumbersome as I read through it and I am not enhansed with any of the characters.
Nina wrote: "Now that I am almost finished with the book, "The Map of Betrayal," I am not recommending it. It seemed cumbersome as I read through it and I am not enhansed with any of the characters."OK, Nina, I'll take your advice.
I want to thank Jim of KY for mentioning The Hornblower Companion in his Hornblower review. Jim's extensive review is at: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...In his review, Jim wrote: "The Hornblower Companion is an atlas with brief descriptons & should be read along with the books."
I borrowed The Hornblower Companion from our public library and my husband is finding the maps very helpful and interesting. He's really wrapped up in all the Hornblower books we borrowed from the library.
So, a big "THANK YOU" to Jim!
Although I'd been intending to read the second and third books in the The Young Hornblower Omnibus at the earliest opportunity (and still plan to read them fairly soon), I recently wound up starting the action-adventure/espionage novel Doha 12 instead. It's written by my Goodreads friend Lance Charnes, and is another book I've been laying off to read (especially since it's gotten a number of rave reviews from other Goodreads friends).
Glad to help, Joy. Great books. I thought Eddie would like them.I was amazed that "Doha 12" was Lance's first book. I rarely give an action book 5 stars, but did in this case. My review is here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Joy, it would be far too exciting for you.
"South", his second book, is really good too, but it's very depressing. Still, I gave it 5 stars, too. It's set in the near future & is all too possible. My review is here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Werner wrote: "Although I'd been intending to read the second and third books in the The Young Hornblower Omnibus at the earliest opportunity ..., I recently wound up starting the action-adventure/espionage novel Doha 12 instead. ..."Sounds like a real thriller, Werner!
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As a kid, I was actually pretty good at drawing with a pencil (and still am, but I haven't really had occasion to do so in years). But I'm not dextrous enough to do anything halfways recognizable with paint. (Both Barb and Deborah can, though!)