2020 2Q: The Golden Notebook (part 2 questions)

[Amanda]

Hey all, I enjoyed reading the part 1 responses, so here are some questions for May for those reading this quarterly:

Part 2 Questions:

1. So far, is there one of the “notebooks” you have a preference for and why?

2. How do you feel about the overt political themes of the book (particularly the red notebook), and its depiction of what are essentially champagne communists?

3. One of the notable things about the book is the clear and significant dreams that Anna describes. Lessing herself said dreams very important to her writing, and she used them to resolve narrative difficulties. Did you like the dream analysis aspects of the book, or did you find them dated? Do you ascribe significance to your dreams yourself, or not so much?

4. How would you characterize Anna’s romantic and sexual relationships with men? How do these relationships reflect upon Anna or upon the men? What do you think will happen to Anna? How are Anna’s relationships similar to or different from contemporary “Hook Up” culture?

5. In different ways, Molly, Anna, or Marion are portrayed as bad mothers. What sort of mothers do you think they are? How do they compare to the sort of mother you did or did not have? What is your idea of a successful mother, and does this mother do what is best for her children, herself, or both (if this is possible)? Would you define a successful father in the same way?

6. How are you enjoying the book so far: Are you looking forward to the final part?

Discuss!

[Diane]

Part 2 Questions:

1. So far, is there one of the “notebooks” you have a preference for and why?

I think the Blue Notebook would be my favorite because it is her personal diary. I did like how she described the Golden Notebook though.

2. How do you feel about the overt political themes of the book (particularly the red notebook), and its depiction of what are essentially champagne communists?

I learned quite a bit of history in regards to the communist Party especially in different regions. Her friends seem to come from here, there and everywhere. The Red Notebook was not my favorite and I didn't enjoy reading about the dissolution of the party.

3. One of the notable things about the book is the clear and significant dreams that Anna describes. Lessing herself said dreams very important to her writing, and she used them to resolve narrative difficulties. Did you like the dream analysis aspects of the book, or did you find them dated? Do you ascribe significance to your dreams yourself, or not so much?

Writing about Anna's dreams was another level of complexity to the book. Sometimes I would forget I was reading a dream. I think I found this aspect one too many layers.

4. How would you characterize Anna’s romantic and sexual relationships with men? How do these relationships reflect upon Anna or upon the men? What do you think will happen to Anna? How are Anna’s relationships similar to or different from contemporary “Hook Up” culture?

I was amazed at how quickly Anna would fall for someone and her need to never be alone. She understood her destructive behavior but seemed unwilling to change it. She used men just like men use women and of course she was judged for it. I don't think Anna will ever be successful at a relationship.

5. In different ways, Molly, Anna, or Marion are portrayed as bad mothers. What sort of mothers do you think they are? How do they compare to the sort of mother you did or did not have? What is your idea of a successful mother, and does this mother do what is best for her children, herself, or both (if this is possible)? Would you define a successful father in the same way?

After all I have read from the author, I think these women were a representation of real women she knew. This was a time of change for women and this novel reflected that.

6. How are you enjoying the book so far: Are you looking forward to the final part?

My enjoyment of the book has waxed and waned. At 60% it started to feel like a chore to me to keep reading.

[Liz M]

What sections compromise part 2, btw? I've just finished "Free Women 3" which is a little more than two-thirds of the book, page-wise but is only 3 of 6 sections....

1. So far, is there one of the “notebooks” you have a preference for and why?

I prefer the non-notebook sections of the novel. I'm more interested in Anna's analysis of other people's actions (Molly, Tommy, Richard, her own....) than reading the stories within the story.

2. How do you feel about the overt political themes of the book (particularly the red notebook), and its depiction of what are essentially champagne communists?
I've never heard the term champagne communist, so that was a fun few minutes of google. I'm indifferent to the political discussions. I have no point of reference and I don't think, so far, either Anna or Lessing has made them relevant to the rest of the story. Somehow any emotional component seems to be absent in these sections -- too much "telling" perhaps?

3. Did you like the dream analysis aspects of the book, or did you find them dated? Do you ascribe significance to your dreams yourself, or not so much?
Dreams, in literature and in other people's relation of them tend to bore me.

4. How would you characterize Anna’s romantic and sexual relationships with men? How do these relationships reflect upon Anna or upon the men? What do you think will happen to Anna? How are Anna’s relationships similar to or different from contemporary “Hook Up” culture?
Anna's relationships all seem very intellectually fraught. It's unfortunate that she (and the men as well!) are so focused on the gender-roles they are playing that no one seems to be enjoying the physical act. I hope contemporary hook-up culture is more enjoyable and less emotionally damaging than what is depicted in the novel.

5. In different ways, Molly, Anna, or Marion are portrayed as bad mothers. What sort of mothers do you think they are? I don't think Lessing is portraying these women as bad mothers. Richard may think so, but I don't think he is the only opinion represented and I don't think he is Lessing's mouthpiece.

[Amanda]

Liz M wrote: "What sections compromise part 2, btw? I've just finished "Free Women 3" which is a little more than two-thirds of the book, page-wise but is only 3 of 6 sections....

1. So far, is there one of the..."

To answer that, I didn't have any specific break area in mind (just roughly 2/3 of the way through) since the book's structure doesn't facilitate a split into 3. I Just thought I'd put up questions that can be answered each quarterly month at approximately each third of the book.

[[deleted user]]

1. I like the African experience notebook. I liked it so much I have forgotten the colour LOL

2. Politics in literature rarely interests me and this was the same. It was interesting to see why Anna joined the communist party and to see how she wanted to leave it again. About how you were judged inside and outside of the party. It was also interesting seeing it from the point of view of party members who were not living a truly communist life.

3. Dreams like politics don't really interest me unless they have a specific function in this novel I believe it was to highlight the analysis side of life for Anna something that I don't believe was that common in England at the time. I can barely remember my dreams and any that I do remember are just revisiting waking events.

4. Poor decision making the relationships reflect poorly on Anna and the man and honestly I don't there really is a hook up culture today at least in my age group. The way Anna meets men is the way people still (pre covid) meet others for relationships.

5. Tough question I think Anna is portrayed more sympathetically because here only "sin" is being a single mother. Molly left her son to go and explore and find herself (arrrggghh) but really he was old enough to be left and there were people around him. Marion is a second wife who appears to care more about the first wife's son than her own children she also leaves her husband and children. What makes a good mother I don't feel qualified to answer that but I think in their own ways all the women believe what they are doing is right. Men would not be judged in the same way all a man would need to do to be considered a good father is to provide money.

6. I have now finished the book and can honestly say the last part was my least favourite. I was annoyed by the repetition of stories by the destructive sexual relationships and by the way nothing ended conclusively.

[Gail]

Part 2 Questions:

1. So far, is there one of the “notebooks” you have a preference for and why?

In this second part, I preferred the pre-notebook Anna story line. In the first part I preferred the Africa section. I didn't appreciate the red notebook at all in the first section but the red notebook around the time that Anna was giving up on the CP was interesting I thought. It really captured Anna having to let go of a core part of her being, rather than simply a political philosophy.

2. How do you feel about the overt political themes of the book (particularly the red notebook), and its depiction of what are essentially champagne communists?

Again, I thought her internal contemplation about the CP and what it meant to her, was more interesting than what they actually did or believed. Clearly, during the time of Stalin it was difficult to believe you could make a difference even if you truly believed in the underlying social construct.

3. One of the notable things about the book is the clear and significant dreams that Anna describes. Lessing herself said dreams very important to her writing, and she used them to resolve narrative difficulties. Did you like the dream analysis aspects of the book, or did you find them dated? Do you ascribe significance to your dreams yourself, or not so much?

I have noticed that I dream more in this time of Covid-19. I have read that it is because I am not getting enough stimulation from personal interaction. Of course, I read that on social media, not in a scientific journal.
At any rate, I thought some of the dream descriptions worked better than others. Sometimes they seemed to clarify issues, but the one about the person being shot by a firing squad, I was not sure how to interpret.

4. How would you characterize Anna’s romantic and sexual relationships with men? How do these relationships reflect upon Anna or upon the men? What do you think will happen to Anna? How are Anna’s relationships similar to or different from contemporary “Hook Up” culture?

I think Anna has come to realize after the relationship with Michael that she is not free at all. She is free to make decisions about having sex or not having sex with a man but the man's assumptions about the interactions do not seem to change and her emotions are impacted as much as someone who lived a more constrained life.

5. In different ways, Molly, Anna, or Marion are portrayed as bad mothers. What sort of mothers do you think they are? How do they compare to the sort of mother you did or did not have? What is your idea of a successful mother, and does this mother do what is best for her children, herself, or both (if this is possible)? Would you define a successful father in the same way?

I agree with others that in this book, the men only have to provide. The woman do not truly believe that they are bad mothers. I think Lessing does not believe that her characters are bad mothers. They made some choices that did not conform to the societal constraints of the time. I really do not know how to define a good mother. I suspect they come in thousands of different varieties. I know that I had a good mother. My mother had her own priorities, I was not the center of her universe, she was a great role model in many areas, she loved me like a rock, unconditionally and she knew when to let me go without ever stopping the love.

6. How are you enjoying the book so far: Are you looking forward to the final part?

Strangely, I liked the beginning of this section better than the first section but plowing through the notebooks is not as fun as it was when I was discovering what the notebooks were about. I have not finished the book yet.

[Amanda]

1. I remember really liking the Red and Black books best given I find the themes of political activism and racial equity/colonialism more interesting than the contents of the other two books personally.

2. Overall, I liked the overt political discussions, and I liked how she got at a legitimate problem in leftist activism circles of those who ironically have the most financial privilege and power coming to the front and largely being there to feel like a good person and assuage their own guilt as opposed to a legitimate passion for making room for marginalized and working class voices and wanting to revolutionize things for their benefit.

3. I mean I find it kind of cool that she used dreams to resolve narrative points: I’ve used dreams to generate story ideas before. But, like what someone else here said, just like in real life, no one really is interested in other people’s dreams lol. I also find dream analysis a little dated, I know it was new age and seemed cutting edge at the time but really dates a book now.

4. This was one of the aspects of the book I was less enamored with, but I understand how it likely reflected a lot of women’s experiences at the time. I agree with a lot of the other comments here that her affairs seem based on a need to not be alone and are very fraught. I think there is some aspect of that in current culture with my friends, but overall I know so many more women who “hook up” without emotional angst or need for male influence in their lives and I think that reflects some degree of progress.

5. I agree with all the other women commenting here that they are flawed but not necessarily bad mothers. I found most of these questions on various book club groups/ review articles etc, and while I think it’s important that they are imperfect mothers in the book and it is okay to portray motherhood as conflicting in that way, that “bad” may be a step too far especially when contrasted with our expectations of fathers (insert Laura Dern’s monologue from Marriage Story here lol).

6. I enjoyed the book overall when I read it, but did feel it dipped a bit in the middle, so I see where some others are coming from, but I felt it came together well in the end. Looking forward to everyone’s part 3 responses.

[Diane]

1. So far, is there one of the “notebooks” you have a preference for and why?
I like the black notebook best, followed by the blue. I found her reminiscences of Africa one of the most interesting aspects of the book. The red notebook was my least favorite.

2. How do you feel about the overt political themes of the book (particularly the red notebook), and its depiction of what are essentially champagne communists?
This was my least favorite aspect of the book. I hadn't heard the term "champagne communist" before, so this was educational for me. The term definitely fit since their political leanings weren't really in keeping with their lifestyles.

3. One of the notable things about the book is the clear and significant dreams that Anna describes. Lessing herself said dreams very important to her writing, and she used them to resolve narrative difficulties. Did you like the dream analysis aspects of the book, or did you find them dated? Do you ascribe significance to your dreams yourself, or not so much?
In some ways, her dreams were more vivid than her actual life experiences. It was a channel in which she could express herself more freely. They also demonstrated her lack of control within her personal life in regards to her thoughts and emotions. I enjoyed the dreams and felt they added to the book.

4. How would you characterize Anna’s romantic and sexual relationships with men? How do these relationships reflect upon Anna or upon the men? What do you think will happen to Anna? How are Anna’s relationships similar to or different from contemporary “Hook Up” culture?
I felt that she made poor choices when it came to relationships. There was probably lot more pressure back then for women to "get a man" and not be a spinster. Gender roles and expectations were much more restritive, too.

5. In different ways, Molly, Anna, or Marion are portrayed as bad mothers. What sort of mothers do you think they are? How do they compare to the sort of mother you did or did not have? What is your idea of a successful mother, and does this mother do what is best for her children, herself, or both (if this is possible)? Would you define a successful father in the same way?
I agree with what others said. They were flawed mothers, but not bad mothers.

[Pip]

1. I preferred the African story. The descriptions were vivid and the lifestyle was interesting. Race relations were discussed without being too heavyhanded.
2. I hadn't heard the term champagne communists either, and I think it is rather unfair. Communists in the West were idealists who wanted a fairer society. There was a great deal of undercover spying for the Soviet Union at the time! Of course there was not the same anticommunist fervour in Britain as there was in the States, with McCarthyism rampant. I thought the descriptions of the disillusions when Stalin's progroms became known was utterly fascinating. Leaving the Party was like abandoning religion, I thought.

[Pip]

3. I found most of the dreams tiresome, particularly because Anna seemed to base her decisions on what she had dreamt. Unrealistic, I thought. I remember my dreams vividly, but as they usually involve me being incompetentor compromised I laugh them off!
4. Anna seems to have far too much time to analyse her relationships! In the real world one is far too busy in the various roles one plays to stop and think too much about sexual politics. In 1962, the year of publication, her promiscuity may have been shocking. I wondered how the characters avoided pregnancy so skilfully in pre-pill days. A modern counterpart is the television series Fleabag.
5. I didn't hink any of them were bad mothers. Anna, in particular, lived her life around her obligations as a parent which she felt kept her grounded. I could identify with that! My experience as a daughter was very different. I was adopted when my parents were in their 40's and so my mother had had a full life, albeit without a paying job, before my arrival. It was a more conventional upbringing. A successful mother raises independent children. So does a successful father.