Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
The Forum - Debate Religion
>
Chaos as an unusual argument for creation
date
newest »
newest »
Hi Cay,First I would like to point out that I don't know too much about chaos theory, but from what I do know, the meaning of the word chaos in this field is not synonymous with the chaos that is referred to as the opposite of order. Both are real meanings and may be attached to the same word chaos. In other words, the two words under discussion are homonyms. If any discussion may be carried any further it would be constructive to first define chaos in context of chaos theory.
From what I understand about this field of study is that its focus is on complex mathematics of predictability on a given physical system. Some of these systems being nearly deterministic, meaning the outcome of its future effects may be determined accurately. But according to chaos theory there are small grey areas where predictability is "random" and can not be identified within these nearly deterministic systems. This proposition from theorists is interesting, of course, but to label that which is mathematically unpredictable as "random" is just jumping to conclusions. Mathematics throughout history has been refurbished and refurbished in order to understand more of God's creation, and even today there are people still working to achieve a better mathematical model to advance our knowledge in all these sorts of matters. There are many patterns that are seen in nature that are incredibly complex, all this shows is how little we humans know. So chaos within the context of chaos theory refers to that mathematically grey area of unpredictability, while chaos in its conventional sense refers to disorder.
Second, I'm interested in how you are connecting Romans 1:20 as a foundation for chaos theory. Could you elaborate on that?
Chris, what I after is not limited to math. Just look at another example I mentioned, more in detail at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence . It is easy to understand. And it will come from chaos. The notion of chaos is stable can only ever occur to someone who spends to much time away from creation, as you otherwise see the the hand of God; and here we are at Romans.
Chris Warns wrote: "Hi Cay,First I would like to point out that I don't know too much about chaos theory, but from what I do know, the meaning of the word chaos in this field is not synonymous with the chaos that is..."
Cay, I'm with Chris on the questions of disparate definitions. The dictionary definition of chaos is "complete disorder and confusion." Looking at the Wikipedia site you cited, it's clear (at least to me) that "complete disorder and confusion" is not meant by chaos mathematicians (although they may sometimes speak as if they do). The iconic example for math chaos (snowflakes) show great symmetry and order (I think this is the point of chaos theory). To my simplistic way of thinking (I also am not an expert on chaos) math chaos comes about by mixing natural laws with a random number generator (to my mind overall not random at all - you're just pushing the guiding principle--the laws up one level from direct design i.e. the design and complexity is moved to the system).
If you want to look for complete chaos in mathematics (in the older, traditional sense), look at the first (boring) spaces I encountered in tensor analysis where you didn't know where you were, had no sense of distance or direction, and knew nothing about the space right next to you. To me that's chaos in the traditional sense.
Like Chris, I am also wondering and interested where you are going with this.
Chris, while the definition of chaos is still "complete disorder and confusion", every area of since just reaffirms that this is always only a transitional stage before emergence takes place. So I am not trying to dispute chaos as disorder but it usually only lasts so short before the patterns that god has directed at the creation take hold of the system. This is also the main problem facing the evolution theory folks (those that still think) that is why they created Emergent Evolution as a concept, which is really Creation, but just not called that way.
On tensor analysis you will find through more modern views on the same algebra clear atractors (so again the have the tendency for emergent behavior, quite important on engineering with non-Newtonian fluid systems by the way)
Two principles that combine to make our philosophy of life (creation and determinism) complex:1. Minute changes can ripple into enormous ramifications (the butterfly effect).
2. At the subatomic level, we cannot escape randomness.
Lee, I disagree as for the first I am not arguing that chaos takes place with enormous ramifications, but that it is just a short time until emergence takes place. In most books on the the butterfly effect call this the transduction. On a subatomic level I could argue or just show you the facts such as with https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-... and there is a lot where this came from just search in a scientific libary on quatum and emergence and you will find a lot from the last eight years, before that it was used as a killer argument by those that will not even consider something until seen.
Lee, I am not starting my argument the classical way of creation. I deliberately start with chaos and then show the determinism in the transduction, whereas most argue the creation as something stable, which I would never do. With all the pollution and other man made problems we might as well get an episode where only a few in an Arch get over chaos time if at all. But that will still leave the emergence after the chaos true.
Hey Cay, that's a fascinating link, thanks!Perhaps most significant of all is the implication that quantum mechanics and general relativity are not so incompatible after all. When viewed through the lens of entanglement, the famous ‘problem of time’ just melts away.
Yes and as such is it is an apologetic argument
Cay, do you seriously think that man-made problems are a problem to God? Or that puny human insights into the nature of the Universe are some threat to his Dominion?He sees no chaos, no deviation from form, no unexpected twists in the pattern of existence, and no surprises of any sort. He is in total control when He wishes to exert ANY option. In the beginning, by giving Man free will, the Garden experiment could have gone either of 2 ways depending on the choice of the inhabitants. They choose disobedience, civilization in disobedience is thus the norm, but God was/is fully prepared for that eventuality.
Robert, chaos is not man made as well as emergence is not man made. If as you said earlier you see God as all knowing is there anything he does not know? I do not think so. Romans 1 does talk about the man not knowing God nor any of the sin, but just points out that God is seen in all creation, so that is why I cannot see what your true argument has to do with this apologetic statement of mine, unless we are not talking apologetic`s here.
God does not know what I'm going to do if I do it spontaneously. That's part of the free will makeup. No chaos isn't necessarily man-made, it can be part of the natural world, but in my argument isn't chaotic to God, only to us with our limited understanding. Cay - practically anything can be rolled into the Apologetics category; it's a largely undefined free-for-all.
So chaos is the emergence of order rather than the man-made order usually referred to as organization. So let me now get some ideas from the Bible in this argument from Roman 1:20 “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse”. Is this not a pretty clear indication that the emerging of order from chaos disregarding of the order set up by man is what is reflected here. But again this would mean that the creation comes from chaos without man as the central element and this is why this argument is so hard to follow as we all like to put ourselves at the center. So does this make sense?