May - June 2020: David Copperfield: chapters 1-14

[France-Andrée]

I have only one unread Dickens novel... Martin Chuzzlewit. I have the majority of CD in paper with the notes, I need the notes when I read him. Going to root out David Copperfield and start it in the coming week, I remember liking it, but The author and me disagree, it is not my favourite.

[John]

That’s very impressive to have only one unread Dickens novel. If you have not read either Pictures from Italy or American Notes, they both are fine works in the non-fiction grain.

[France-Andrée]

John wrote: "That’s very impressive to have only one unread Dickens novel. If you have not read either Pictures from Italy or American Notes, they both are fine works in the non-fiction grain."

I have Pictures of Italy, I am going to get to it especially now that I wont get « new » Dickens anymore.

[Elizabeth A.G.]

The scenes when David first returns home for school break, when the Murdstones are away, are a return to the way things used to be for David, his mother and Pegotty and David takes real delight in the new baby. It seems to be a return to his normal happy family life, a depiction of what a family should be. But, of course, David himself knows that living with the Murdstones made the Rookery "a home that is not a home." He is superfluous, a non-entity, in this new configuration of home after his mother's remarriage.

This got me thinking about what the ideal Victorian family would have been for David's social class. Even with the happiness experienced by David in his family life prior to his mother marrying Murdstone, David's family life as depicted by Dickens is not that of what was considered the ideal Victorian family in which the father, after dealing with the stresses of the outside world, would come home to the refuge of a large loving family of several children. As we know, David's father had died, so this ideal was not presented by Dickens. The unusual Mr. Pegotty family was also not the ideal family, although loving and generous and of course a different social class. The idea of the nuclear family is absent at least in the early part of the book. Even James Steerforth's family is not the typical Victorian ideal as his father had also died.

While Dickens himself had many children, his family life I believe would not be considered the ideal by Victorian standards and his growing up years in a large family were also deprived. Do we ever find the ideal family in David Copperfield?

[Sara]

I really hate the Murdstones. They simply cannot bear anyone else being happy or loved. They seek to torture both Davy and Clara and they use their love for one another against them.

I was also glad Davy had that miraculous day with just his mother and Peggotty.

I believe when I was young we were required to make a polite appearance and greet company, but then, as children as young as Davy, we would have been excused to go and play quietly. What we were not allowed to do was make excessive noise or hang on to adults. I think we were, in fact, discouraged from sitting in the room in case the adults wanted to engage in "adult conversation". We would definitely not have been asked to spend hours sitting silently in our parlour. We would, however, have been required to do just that at either church or while visiting another's home.

[Susan]

Well I’ve finally caught up with you! I have some comments and questions relating to earlier chapters, I hope no one minds.

The Murdstones first. Someone earlier commented that perhaps Clara was getting a bit desperate on the matrimonial front and that’s why she was attracted to Mr Murdstone. It seems to me that Mr Murdstone might be, in common parlance, a con man. So far as I can remember he turned up with a dog and a sister and nothing else. No mention was made of his having a household anywhere else. And I find the fact of the Murdstones not having a servant strange in a time when all the ‘gentlemen’ seemed to have one. I use the term to refer to people who lived on a private income. Mr Murdstone is certainly no gentleman in the modern sense.

On the nursery rhyme and fairy tales topic, since I have been caring for my preschool grandson, I have been feeling very uncomfortable about the violence in them. Is it me or does anyone else think maybe chopping off heads and boiling to death in water are a bit over the top for kids?

Last but not least, one of the things I really love about the Dickens’ novels is the way everything is entwined in the plot and the interconnections all become clear in the end. Kate Atkinson has been described by some as Dickensian because she employs the same device in her crime novels. Readers seem to love it or hate it lol.

[Robin P]

Yes, I agree that Murdstone is a con man. He used the classic techniques of an abuser, being charming at first, making promises, flattering the woman, etc. Later he wants to cut her off from any friends or family who might support her. He dismisses any of her concerns and insists she isn't competent to make her own decisions.

As far as happy families in Dickens, I thought of the Cratchits, even though they are poor. The children love and respect their parents and the parents treasure and try to set a good example for the children. It is kind of rare, as Dickens is full of orphans and half-orphans and bad parents of all sorts. There are some examples of sweet little girls taking care of fathers and grandfathers, as in The Old Curiosity Shop. There are pseudo-families like the gang in Oliver Twist. There are a number of ridiculous mothers and cruel fathers. But we will meet the Micawbers later in this book, and you can see if you think they qualify

[Katy]

I also loved the scene of David's first night home with his mother and Peggotty and the new baby. It will give David a memory to treasure during the rough times which are surely ahead for him.

It was heartbreaking to me when David makes the comment about always feeling like he was one person too many who shouldn't be there.

[Rosemarie]

That was a heart-breaking moment-to feel like you don't belong with your own mother.
Clara must be heart-broken too.
I wonder how she really feels about Murdstone?

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Hi John - so great to see you back! I'm not sure if you're able to read David Copperfield at the moment, but I'm sure you must know it, so please do pop in to add comments when you like :)

Welcome too France-Andrée and Susan - and I'm sure you'll be able to slip easily into our discussions here. If you can, take a look at some of the earlier comments in the thread. We began at comment 95, but even before that, there is interesting background information about the novel. From then on, we discuss each chapter as it comes. Because we may choose to read at different speeds, I give a brief summary just so we can all orient ourselves!

This has worked really well so far, and we only need to use spoiler tags if if anyone reads ahead. (Remarkably, it hasn't really happened!)

I'm loving this read with everyone :) France-Andrée, I hope that like several of us here, you'll find a reread of Charles Dickens is just as enjoyable in a completely new way, and that you discover plenty afresh :)

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Susan - Charles Dickens left Edward Murdstone's background quite sketchy, at least at this point, but it's clear that he has his own money and is established as a Victorian gentleman (though I agree, not in today's meaning of the word!) I don't see his not having servants as a problem. No doubt he would dismiss them without a second thought!

I do Iike your idea about him being involved in some shady dealings. He is some kind of financier, I think. If you remember when he took Davy to Yarmouth, as he had some business dealing with those two friends of his, they "were busy with some papers. I saw them quite hard at work," for quite a long time.

Yes, the originals of fairy tales are terrible gruesome. Thank goodness for watered down versions for today's tots!

I was delighted that you mentioned Kate Atkinson, as I'm reading my first novel by her right now, and will bear what you said in mind :)

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Elizabeth and Robin - Great point about the families! We've seen examples of different courtships and marriages, and in fact the "happy families" Charles Dickens portrays are often not the central ones in a novel, but like little camoes. We have one such coming up now actually, in the next chapter.

Everyone has made such great observations, that I think we could discuss this for ages, but I feel we should stick to the plan and move on to the next chapter. Things change pretty quickly in a Dickens novel!

Can I just put in this reminder. Yes we all agree that the result of Mr Murdstone's "firmness" is cruel, but I see more than a pantomime villain here. No doubt in one of Charles Dickens's own performances, he would have been booed and hissed by the audience, but he has a genuine belief that what he is doing is right. He tells Clara:

"I had a satisfaction in the thought of marrying an inexperienced and artless person, and forming her character, and infusing into it some amount of that firmness and decision of which it stood in need."

It goes against the grain for us, with our 21st century perspective, but I think this is genuine, and still think he isn't as much of a sadist as Mr Creakle :(

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Chapter 9:

David has been back at "Salem House" for 2 months, and it is his 9th birthday. He is called in to see the Creakles, and he and his friends fully expect him to receive a hamper of goodies from Peggotty. Instead, he is led to sit down with Mrs Creakle, who explains to him as kindly as she can that his mother and baby brother have both died.

After a couple of days a cart comes to take him home, via an overnight journey to Yarmouth. At Yarmouth he is met by a Mr Omer, who take Davy to his premises. The Omer family deal with all the trappings of a funeral. The son makes the coffins and the 3 young women are seamstresses who make a mourning suit for Davy from black crape.



Davy at the Undertaker's - Fred Barnard

Davy find it difficult to eat his breakfast, and although he like this jolly family, with their good feeling and happiness, he cannot join in with them, especially on the way back to "Blunderstone Rookery".

Peggotty meets him with a great burst of crying, but tries to be calm for him. Mr. Murdstone is silent and sad, but Miss Murdstone is as "firm" and intransigent as ever.

Davy attends the funeral noticing people but feeling unable to talk to them. Afterwards Peggotty explains how Clara had been ill for a long time, gradually getting weaker, and how she believed that she would never see Davy again after his last visit.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

The title of this chapter, and the feel-good feeling instilled by the previous one, is deceptive. If you didn't feel close to tears during this one, your heart must be made of stone! Charles Dickens can be criticised for being maudlin and sentimental when he describes death, but in this case I think he has captured the feelings of Davy perfectly.

"If ever child were stricken with sincere grief, I was."

and yet alongside his grief, he was conscious of his behaviour, and a burgeoning idea of self-awareness:

"When I saw them glancing at me out of the windows, as they went up to their classes, I felt distinguished, and looked more melancholy, and walked slower."

I also particularly enjoyed the fleshing out of Edward Murdstone:

When Davy first sees him:

"Mr. Murdstone took no heed of me when I went into the parlour where he was, but sat by the fireside, weeping silently, and pondering in his elbow-chair."

And later:

"Her brother took a book sometimes, but never read it that I saw. He would open it and look at it as if he were reading, but would remain for a whole hour without turning the leaf, and then put it down and walk to and fro in the room. I used to sit with folded hands watching him, and counting his footsteps, hour after hour. He very seldom spoke to her, and never to me. He seemed to be the only restless thing, except the clocks, in the whole motionless house."

He is full of sorrow. Could this be the beginning of remorse? Only time will tell

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

A little more ... ?

And I always love to see Charles Dickens's recurring motifs. The sea and water always seem to indicate a death or transformation:

"All this, I say, is yesterday’s event. Events of later date have floated from me to the shore where all forgotten things will reappear, but this stands like a high rock in the ocean."

Off to get a box of tissues ...

[Pamela]

Bionic Jean wrote: "If you didn't feel close to tears during this one, your heart must be made of stone! ..."

Ha ha that's me! I did of course feel sorry for Davy, and even for Mr Murdstone whose grief seems genuine (not sure if that is for Clara or his baby son though). But the death scene as described by Peggotty is pretty sentimental. Still, it's what we expect from Dickens and I do agree that he is good at capturing Davy's feelings.

Love the Omer family, so cheerful while doing their gloomy jobs.

[Lori]

My heart is aching for Davy. The way Peggotty was patting Davy’s hand while telling him about his mother’s last days was gut wrenching. As always, Peggotty was trying to give Davy some comfort. The thought also occurred to me that patting Davy’s hand gave her the strength to continue with her story. Simple gestures like that add so much to a character and though it was terribly sad, the scene gave me a distinct mental image.

Perhaps because tomorrow is Mother’s Day, this chapter was an especially emotional one to read? 😢

Jean: This chapter did leave me wondering if Dickens lost his mother when he was young, or if he came close to losing his mother to an illness.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Pamela - good point that Mr Murdstone could have been grieving for his son ... although I feel he's stunned by the whole thing.

Lori- yes, this is insightful too :) Don't we as adults, often feel we have to hold our emotions in check, to protect a child? The description of Peggotty is so sensitive and moving.

I can see why you wondered about Charles Dickens's mother, but actually she lived to a good old age! We've chatted elsewhere about how Charles Dickens had to pay the bills his spendthrift parents ran up, and finally decided to buy them a house outside London. Elizabeth Dickens died in 1863, only 7 years before her son!

Personally my opinion is that this is one of the many pictures of his sister-in-law, Mary Hogarth, who lived with the family and tragically died in Charles Dickens's arms at the age of 17. It's not an exact parallel, but I think that's where the authentic feeling comes in.

[Lori]

That’s very interesting, Jean. Thank you for the info. The grief is very real in that scene.

The other scene that jumped out at me was when Davy became aware that the other boys were watching him through the window (at Salem House) and he slowed his walking. An excellent quote, btw. I flagged that passage as well because it rang true.

[Rosemarie]

This was certainly a sad chapter and David's future is now uncertain. We know he's not going back to school but I can't see him living with the Murdstones.

Murdstone was actually grieving his loss, but that sister of his is made of stone. Does she domineer him as well?

[Debra Diggs]

Sad chapter. But we knew it was coming.

I liked the part where Tommy Traddles gave Davy his pillow and skeleton drawings.

I wonder if Davy will become David now.

[Pamela]

Debra wrote: "I liked the part where Tommy Traddles gave Davy his pillow and skeleton drawings."

Oh yes, I liked this too. Tommy Traddles has such a kind heart.

[Debra Diggs]

Pamela wrote: "Oh yes, I liked this too. Tommy Traddles has such a kind heart."

Hopefully, we will get to see Tommy Traddles again. But I do not know how if David does not go back to school.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Lori - I love it when we highlight the same passages :)

And I too love the skeleton drawings and the pillow :D I also feel that the Omer family were very kind, and did their best to lift Davy's spirits.

I wonder whether this also will develop Davy's experience and knowledge of life. He seems to realise that what was tragic for some, was just workaday business for others. I like this perception of his, as I worried about Davy, when he cheering at the departure of Mell, along with all the other boys, yet felt remorse. His character is still not formed enough to have the courage of his convictions. His moral compass is weak; and he is still under the glamour of Steerforth. The older David expresses this through the narration. Davy should take his lead from Traddles!

But then he is only 9!

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Rosemarie - your thought about whether Jane Murdstone dominates her brother ... Well he yells at her, and appears to have the upper hand, but they both have shares in a wine-merchant, and it's not clear who owns more! Perhaps she exercises more control than he would like, behind the scenes. She is an extraordinary character for sure. Do you remember her being suspicious that servants might be hiding men friends? She certainly likes to be in control!

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Thinking of the different examples of families and relationships has anyone noticed that there is an inverse relationship between happiness and class? The lower the class (Barkis, Peggotty, and the Yarmouth family) the happier; the higher the class (the Murdstones, the Creakles) the less happy.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

"I left Salem House upon the morrow afternoon. I little thought then that I left it, never to return.”

This is so clear, and yet we have no idea what is in store for Davy - or as you observe Debra, we should perhaps now call him "David". This sad event must make him grow up very quickly. His only adult friend in the world is Peggotty - a servant who could be summarily dismissed by Miss Irondrawers Murdstone. Peggotty has also made it clear that she stayed to look after Clara, and has the offer of a steady future if she marries Barkis, so what is to happen?

It always amazes me that Charles Dickens writes of each event so well - comic swiftly followed by tragic - and engages us with each. Today our hearts are broken; will we have another mood-change tomorrow?

[Candi]

I had to keep the tears in check for this chapter!

I actually found it quite interesting that one family was responsible for all of the funeral arrangements - from the garments to the coffin and even picking up David at school. That 'rat-tat-tat' repeated throughout at the Omer's residence was rather ominous in comparison to the relative cheer of the family. I felt for poor David and wondered if he had any idea what the noise was meant to be - and it seems he did have an inkling.

I wonder if Peggotty will go with Barkis or wind up back with the other Peggotty clan. Not sure which way I'd like to see her go. I'd hate to think of her turned out altogether!

I finally did give in and get the audio with Richard Armitage - Michaela tempted me!! And I read this last chapter along with my kindle version and very much liked doing it this way. I can listen and highlight my notes at the same time. The narration is top notch!

[Michaela]

Bionic Jean wrote: "Thinking of the different examples of families and relationships has anyone noticed that there is an inverse relationship between happiness and class? The lower the class (Barkis, Peggotty, and the..."

That´s interesting Jean! I´m also doing a re-read of North and South atm, and there it´s a bit more realistic concerning the poverty of the "lower class", which has happy moments, but mostly has to struggle just to live. The equality is in the direction of (view spoiler)[nearly everyone dying! ;) (hide spoiler)]

Otherwise a very sad chapter, and esp. when read with feeling in an audiobook. I had to shed some tears, though I knew of the outcome.

Loved Traddles good heart, when he gave David his pillow and skeleton paper for a comfort, as he had nothing else.

I wondered whether Mr. Murdstone´s grieve was believable, and if so, if he perhaps felt guilt for treating his wife in this way? - doesn´t correspond to his character though.

[Michaela]

Glad I tempted you Candi! ;) Though I´m biased, I think it´s one of the best audiobooks he´s performing! You can hear/feel that he loves the book!

Yes, this RAT-tat-tat was really ominous, and seemed to me a very modern writing style!

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Candi - I found that interesting too! I haven't come across it before. LOL Michaela tempted you with the audio version... she's tempting me too!

What a great book North and South is, to be sure! I think you are addicted to it Michaela!

I have added an etching by Fred Barnard to today's summary, so that it's easier to find the beginning for anyone who likes to scroll. Not many artists illustrated this chapter, but I do like this one.

[Kathrin]

Hi everyone, I finally made it to chapter 9 by reading two chapters today which gave me the chance to read the more happy chapter 8 along with the sad 9th.

There's a lot of foreshadowing done by Dickens leading up to this serious experience in Davy's life. Even though I didn't know what would happen to his mother I wasn't too surprised by it. It made me tear up nevertheless. Pegotty was amazing in those few chapters and I hope that she'll continue to play a huge role in his life.

To be honest, I was surprised to see Mr. Murdstone grieving over the deaths. At first, I believed that he mourned the failed plan in which he invested this much time and energy. However, maybe there is more to his character that Dickens is going to show us. Keeping my fingers crossed.

I also read all your comments concerning the audiobook and shortly considered getting one myself. I love to listen to audiobooks while doing other things and it would offer me more time with the book but I decided against it. While I can easily deal with Dickens' English in a written way, I guess I would struggle a lot when listening to it.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

I too find Charles Dickens's sentence construction difficult to listen to, and I'm a native English speaker! But much of David Copperfield is narrative - if not actual conversation - rather than description, so I think it might be easier than some. It also helps if you have a gifted reader, of course, and I think Michaela will tell us that he is, somehow (look at her profile picture ;) )

Yes, Mr Murdstone showed another side there. I'm so pleased you're considering the characters to be a little more multifaceted now, Kathrin :)

Reading a sad chapter followed by a happy one isn't a bad idea!

[Michaela]

LOL Jean, I think North and South is the only book I read several times (there may be a few others I read twice)! Many people only came to know the book because of the BBC series, so it advertised for Elizabeth Gaskell.

I wouldn´t be able to listen to David Copperfield besides, so I always have a pdf text open while listening. Btw it´s supposed to be one of Richard Armitage´s best audibook performances. And now I´ll stop with this! ;)

[Robin P]

I agree with Jean that David's mother is not based on Dickens' mother. He found his own mother ridiculous and depicted women like her in a couple of books, as displaying rambling speech and endless uninteresting anecdotes. Also, when Dickens' family was in debtor's prison and he had to work in the blacking (shoe polish) factory and hated it, his mother thought it was a good job and she wanted him to keep it even when the family got out of debt. Dickens said he could never forget that (or forgive, it seems.) Luckily his father prevailed and Charles got to go back to school.

And yes, Dickens idolized his sister-in-law who died young, and hecreated lots of sweet, innocent, pretty, interchangeable daughters and wives in his books.

[Elizabeth A.G.]

In chapter 9 Davy is called into the parlour and he as well as his classmates become excited and expectant that the hamper from Peggotty has arrived -- Mr. Sharp advises Davy "Don't hurry, David. There's time enough, my boy, don't hurry." Dickens is very clever here with the hint of foreboding that seems present and even David senses Sharp's "feeling tone" but in the excitement of the moment pushes the thought aside. I also thought Mrs. Creakle was very sensitive toward David in giving him the news of his mother's death - gently bringing him to the sofa to talk quietly with him and then allowing him the time to cry and grieve and he thinks "she was very kind to me." But it is the truly mournful and devoted Peggotty who consoles David so that his remembrance of his mother is that of the youthful, happy mother he had known in an earlier time.

These experiences certainly must change David in more ways than age and a hint of that I think is Mr. Chillip's reaction to David when he comments to Miss Jane Creakle, "Dear me, our little friends grow up around us. They grow up out of our knowledge, ma'am?" Hardhearted (yes I'll say it) "Irondrawers" Murdstone is moved by nothing but her business affairs. Mr. Chillip is another who is kind to David.

[Candi]

Bionic Jean wrote: "I too find Charles Dickens's sentence construction difficult to listen to, and I'm a native English speaker! But much of David Copperfield is narrative - if not actual ..."

I was afraid that it might be difficult to listen rather than read this. Especially as I very rarely listen to audiobooks. I have trouble focusing on them. Anyway, no trouble at all with Richard Armitage's narration - he definitely has a flair and makes it quite easy to follow!

[Elizabeth A.G.]

Although in a really different context, the repetitious and ominous Rat-a-tat-tat sound reminded me a bit of the use of sound made by Edgar Allen Poe in the repetition of "nevermore" in his poem "The Raven" and of the beating heart in his story "The Tell-Tale Heart.
Unlike the rat-a-tat that David hears, those sounds are maddening to Poe's characters while David while aware of them does not seem particularly bothered even though he must know what is being built by Mr. Omer's son.

[Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽]

Peggoty’s analysis of Clara’s character and the reasons for her decline and death, at the end of Chapter 9, were so interesting and insightful!

‘She was never well,’ said Peggotty, ‘for a long time. She was uncertain in her mind, and not happy. When her baby was born, I thought at first she would get better, but she was more delicate, and sunk a little every day. She used to like to sit alone before her baby came, and then she cried; but afterwards she used to sing to it—so soft, that I once thought, when I heard her, it was like a voice up in the air, that was rising away.

‘I think she got to be more timid, and more frightened-like, of late; and that a hard word was like a blow to her. But she was always the same to me.‘

I was surprised by Mr. Murdstone’s silent weeping and sorrow. He was utterly misguided and has a broad cruel streak, but it softened my feelings toward him (just a little bit!). But remember Clara’s 105 pound annual annuity referenced in the very first chapter? Maybe he’s also weeping for the loss of that income...

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Oh ... such cynicism Tadiana! :D

Lovely to see you joining in, and all the recent observations.

[Cindy]

This is certainly a very touching chapter. As much as I dislike the Murdstones, I do appreciate that Dickens allows us to see that Mr. Murdstone, at least, appears to genuinely grieve for the loss of his wife and child, unlike his dead-inside sister. I love that Davy, at the end, releases any resentment he has against his poor mother and pushes to the back of his mind his interactions with her since her remarriage, preferring to remember their happier days.

One thing that struck me was the length of time between the deaths and the burial. I haven't looked into this, but did they embalm people at this time, and if so, was it effective? Although the narrative doesn't specify how much time passes (unless I missed it!), it seems that several days pass, even after Davy's arrival. Just a rather ghoulish detail!

[France-Andrée]

Today has been a trying to catch up day. I read chapter 1-6 and I hope to be up to date tomorrow night. I've read every comment up to chapter 6. I wont be repeating a lot of what you guys said, but... just a bit.

First, Jean your recaps are the best! I thought I had the pictures in the paper copy I have, but I don't so the images are also fully appreciated.

Chapter 1 : What really astonished be is that everybody wants a girl! Maybe it's because they are a house full a women and would know how to deal with a girl and not a boy? Also a father would want an heir, but since the father is already gone... Though Clara tries to say to Betsey that it could be a boy, Miss Trotwood is a character who it is hard to go against (and maybe a little irrational in this instance?).

Chapter 2 : just a side note to the Brookes of Sheffield, it was a firm that did cutlery and Dickens did not know it at the time, he learned it after publication and was delighted! This is based on a note by David Gates in the edition I am reading.

Chapter 4 : I cried. I agree though that Murdstone is a product of his time and not as such evil, but he does enjoy power and maybe his house is the only place he can have any? His sister is scary too, but I have to think that if they have the same philosophy, it is because both had a strict education (which I think we would term as abuse now).

Chapter 5 : Davy going away is kind of natural at this point, I think Murdstone is just tired of "caring" for him and thinks he can have a better relationship with his wife if the kid isn't there anymore. Plus, the majority of boys went to school at that time. Peggotty is just precious. I love how Barkis is totally a "l'amour passe par l'estomac" man (love goes through the stomach), that's after my own heart. The sign is quite cruel and I agree with the person who said that Davy's imagination about his peers is worst than the reality is.

Chapter 6 : Funnily Jean, I was thinking about crinkling every time Creakle was mentioned maybe it's a link I'm doing because french is my first language, but it's interesting to know that was the original name. I think Steerforth did the evening snack reunion for his own reason, but I think that for Davy it's going to have a positive impact with his fellows.

It almost feel like a first read since I must have read this 20 years ago... I have forgotten a lot, but some characters I do remember and some events that Dickens foreshadows I remember too.

Hope to be up to date tomorrow.

[Petra]

Bionic Jean wrote: ""‘Shame, J. Steerforth! Too bad!’"

That's what stays with me from this chapter :(..."


I felt so badly for Mr. Mell. This brought Steerforth out as someone to watch out for. He's a charmer and a snake. The worst combination because it causes trust when no trust should be given.
I hope we see Mr. Mell again. I liked him and thought he could be a good friend to Davy in this school. A trusted friend, not a friend like Steerforth.

[Petra]

Everyone, thank you for the background in the thoughts of Society in these times. It has helped put into perspective the actions of Steerforth.
Perhaps Steerforth isn't so much a snake as a man of his times. In a way, this makes him pitiable as he is brought up into this way of thinking (probably through his family) and not so by any thoughts or revelations of his own. It's sad to think that with the changing times, he'll be left behind in some way. He's young, he's doing all that is expected of him and, I'm sure, he thinks his future if secure. If Society changes, his future is wobbly.

[Petra]

Candi wrote: "She may be dozing on my sofa after a Thanksgiving dinner, or watching a cooking show on my television, and still gets annoyed should a book appear in my hands! So this scene really struck a chord with me :D.."

Candi, I'm so glad you shared this. My step-father can be dozing, watching TV, doing crosswords quite happily but as soon as I bring out a book, he stops what he's doing and starts a conversation. I have nothing against conversation but have noticed that as long as I don't bring out a book (when he's occupied with another interest), he's happy with the activity he's chosen. I've been puzzled by this for years but I believe you've just explained it to me.

[Petra]

I loved the beginning of Chapter 8. To go back to the loving, warm days of Mom and Peggotty! What bliss!

It's so sad to see Davy feeling as an outcast in what is more his home (by rights & birth) then Mr. & Miss Murdstone. These two must have had a very strict and harsh upbringing to have them turn out so harsh and narrow-minded themselves.

I loved the discussion about Barkiss and Peggotty's "courtship". I do hope she looks in Barkiss' direction some day. She's such a wonderful, warm character.

Going back to Chapter 7, I also liked that Mr. Peggotty paid Davy a visit in school. It's nice to see that he's got interested and loyal friends in his corner, even if they cannot help him much.

Jean, yes, Chapter 8 is full of foreshadowing. It's actually quite ominous in tone.

I'll continue with Chapter 9 & 10 tomorrow, which will catch me up. Who would know that in such a time of isolation (as we are all experiencing) that I'd have 2 very busy, active days and get behind on my reading. LOL.

[Katy]

Michaela wrote: "Bionic Jean wrote: "Thinking of the different examples of families and relationships has anyone noticed that there is an inverse relationship between happiness and class? The lower the class (Barki..."

Michaela, I am also wondering about Mr. Murdstone's grief. I am waiting until I read a little further to see what he does next before forming an opinion. But I cannot look at him as kindly as Jean does.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

I love coming down in the morning to all these insightful comments!

Cindy - About the length of time between the deaths and the burial ...

Yes, that struck me too, as it was several days. But English back parlours in these days were not heated, and we know it was Winter. Even in my lifetime, before central heating I can remember rooms which were not used being icy cold, and in some cases the frost would be inside the window frames! So there you have the explanation really - no need for embalming.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

France-Andrée - I'm delighted that you managed to both read the novel and our comments! Thank you so much for your kind words. It can be a little dispiriting when people come in (not here!) having read the text, but obviously nothing of what has gone before - either information or discussion - on the thread. I had a little trepidation about this known problem in Goodreads, when starting this new group, but you are all so great at interacting :)

So yes, wanting a girl was unusual in this society at this time, and I think you spotted the reason why. The invention of Aunt Betsey was inspired!

I too am delighted to find that "Brookes of Sheffield" was a genuine cutlery firm! I'm sure Charles Dickens would be aware, as almost every other English person is, that Sheffield is well known for its cutlery manufacture, but it sounds as though this name was one which was remembered subliminally, doesn't it. How odd to be surprised by something in your own novel!

"l'amour passe par l'estomac" How interesting! We also have an expression, "The way to a man's heart is through his stomach," and Barkis is of course the perfect example of this :D

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Petra and Katy You think I am "too kind" to Murdstone? (Katy) Ah, I agree with everyone that he is vile! But I see chinks in his armour, which may or may not lead to some kind of change.

We've all been saying that he is a product of his time, just as the proud Steerforth is too. And at this point the only fact we know is that Steerforth has a mother who is a rich widow, and Murdstone and his sister have a certain amount of money (we learn a little more in today's chapter, 10). So we have to deduce what we can.

We can deduce Clara's background from her behaviour. She was not very bright, but affectionate and vain. She must have had a happy childhood, but one where she was overindulged and a little spoilt, to have become so petulant to Peggotty.

Equally, we can deduce that the two Murdstones, (as Petra says, and I touched on earlier,) "must have had a very strict and harsh upbringing to have them turn out so harsh and narrow-minded themselves". What we have to remember, is that this was normal, for boys of the time, although Jane Murdstone must have been carried along as a sort of casualty. The philosophy was that the stricter you were with a boy, the better chance he had of becoming a young gentleman.

England was conscious of being the core of the British Empire, and it was held that the cream (ie., the aristocracy and noble families of landed gentry) of the male population needed to be strong leaders, in order to fight and conquer as much of the world as they could, in order to bring civilisation to it.

Taking boys away from their families early, instilling strict discipline, lack of many comforts, harsh treatment, beating and bullying was believed the best way to bring this about. The Murdstones, Creakles and Steerforth were all part and product of this system. What's more, although it is largely not in evidence today, some of our public schools (ie., fee-paying private schools, as opposed to state schools) still believe this to be the best way.

Before he was known to the world as George Orwell, Eric Blair revealed many of the iniquities to an astonished larger world, with his essay Such, Such Were the Joys. Some traditions had hung on since Charles Dickens's time - and still do in a few "select" schools - however barbaric most of us may now consider them to be.

"Salem House" and those who patronised that and other schools of its type, was in the business of producing leaders and conquerors. There was no room for sentiment in either the school or the parent. Yes, it's appalling; hair-raising :( But it comes from a genuine belief and is not motivated by personal greed, as for instance the school in Nicholas Nickleby was, or the workhouse in Oliver Twist. Those who organised or patronised such institutions were morally corrupt. The ones here (with the exception of Creakle actually enjoying his cruelty, which was not part of the contract!) were merely misguided in their beliefs, according to our 21st century view.

Sorry this is a bit long! And I feel as though I ought to put some sort of rider that "the views expressed here are not those of the poster" :(