Net Work Book Club discussion
To Self-Publish or To Go By Agent/Publisher.
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My book is too long for any of the current publishing formulas, so I skipped the traditional path and went straight to self-published. It's only been a couple of weeks and sales are just starting, but increasing steadily each day.No reviews anywhere yet.
This is an excellent thread, FSP. Thank you for posting it.
When I thought about what it meant that literary agents and publishers are only interested in books that will sell not just hundreds but thousands of copies, I decided to publish my book through Fast Print Publishing, a print on demand company. One of the good things about publishing your book that way is that will never go out of print. Here is the link to Fast Print Publishing: www.fast-print.net In 2012, I was sixty, so I did not want to wait up to four months before I received a letter back from a literary agent, telling me that they liked what they had read, but it was not for them, wishing me luck elsewhere. When you are over sixty, time is precious, so I published my book, Angel War, through Fast Print Publishing in April, 2013. My local bookseller said that my book was very professionally produced, as good as one from the main publishing houses. My book has 536 pages, could be called a work of fantasy fiction, but it is rooted in The Bible, so I knew it would not fit securely in any of the popular categories. When it was published, my ambition for my book was for it to be read and hopefully enjoyed by ten strangers. That may not sound many, but when you consider that each one of those ten people has a name, family, friends, likes and dislikes, then it is a lot. Anyway, it is nearly the end of 2014, my book has been read and reviewed on Goodreads and Amazon by people who have enjoyed reading it and it was one of the finalists for The Wishing Shelf Independent Book Awards for 2013, I am pleased to say. You seem to be younger and more ambitious than I am, and you may not mind so much waiting for months before you hear back from a literary agent, but remember however good your story is, they are mainly interested in how many copies it would sell, if it were published as a book. Apart from having my Author Profile Page and a page for my book on Goodreads, I have joined quite a few sites on the internet dedicated to books, like Indie Tribe, for example. I also promote my book and post my poems on my WordPress blog and on various sites on Face Book, like Uncaged Emotions, for example. I have read that it can take two years for a book to establish itself. My book will be two years old in April, 2015, and I am already very pleased by the positive reactions to it by people who have read it in different parts of the world, such as England, America and India. That is much better than my story as a manuscript in my room, while I wait to hear from a literary agent. It is only when others read your work can you measure how good it is. My story has been approved by people who love literature, as have my poems, I am pleased to say. So what I have written has passed the test, as far as I am concerned. I doubt any of this will help you in any way, but good luck with your story. Remember, Virginia Woolf set up Hogarth Press with her husband, Leonard, largely so she could publish her own novels, and William Blake and James Joyce self published their own works. Publishers are business people. They want and need to make money. They are looking for best sellers, not so much fine works of literature. Remember that when you send your manuscript to the next literary agent on your list. The Writer's and Artists Year Book has some useful articles about traditional publishing and self publishing and some useful addresses, too. Good luck with your book.
You are so welcome, "OW" and thank you for the compliment. Hello to you!
Hello Philip! It has been a long time; I hope all is well with you. Thank you for providing me with the above link. Your post is so informative. I am not ruling out self-publishing and am aware of so many great authors of the past having gone that route. I should also get an updated copy of, "The Writer's and Artists Yearbook".
I am so pleased your poems and prose have both done so well. I have to say the thought of my tale (a.k.a., my 'precious creative offspring') sitting on some shelf collecting dust and in my pc's files collecting virtual dust, bothers me. I am so proud of it and when I finished it, I wept. It is very dear to me and probably the dearest thing I will ever write for many reasons.
My mother is my toughest critic (well, apart from myself)and she has told me how 'lovely' it is, how 'original the story is' and how much she adores, "Jonathan"--my protagonist. She is currently doing yet another proofread with me as she reads the book for the first time (she has only a few chapters left to go). She admitted to me that she worries it is not marketable enough for the pros because it is unique and perhaps, not very 'commercial'. It is a mix of genres but the way I write--how I write--is literary-oriented. I will not compromise my integrity by creating works which are not indicative of who I am--or what I need to express.
I will have to read your novel, Philip. I am intrigued by what it is about. Thanks for wishing me luck as well. if I continue going by agents and such--I will need this luck even more.
I want to honour my story as you have honoured your own--by getting it 'out there' to the world. It deserves that and I deserve that too. I put SUCH hard work into it and even now, I am doing another edit. I am hypersensitive in nature and having agents shred it and delete it like it does not matter, is rather disconcerting.
To each of you who have already contributed to this thread and to those who have yet to, thank you for responding!
Hello Philip! It has been a long time; I hope all is well with you. Thank you for providing me with the above link. Your post is so informative. I am not ruling out self-publishing and am aware of so many great authors of the past having gone that route. I should also get an updated copy of, "The Writer's and Artists Yearbook".
I am so pleased your poems and prose have both done so well. I have to say the thought of my tale (a.k.a., my 'precious creative offspring') sitting on some shelf collecting dust and in my pc's files collecting virtual dust, bothers me. I am so proud of it and when I finished it, I wept. It is very dear to me and probably the dearest thing I will ever write for many reasons.
My mother is my toughest critic (well, apart from myself)and she has told me how 'lovely' it is, how 'original the story is' and how much she adores, "Jonathan"--my protagonist. She is currently doing yet another proofread with me as she reads the book for the first time (she has only a few chapters left to go). She admitted to me that she worries it is not marketable enough for the pros because it is unique and perhaps, not very 'commercial'. It is a mix of genres but the way I write--how I write--is literary-oriented. I will not compromise my integrity by creating works which are not indicative of who I am--or what I need to express.
I will have to read your novel, Philip. I am intrigued by what it is about. Thanks for wishing me luck as well. if I continue going by agents and such--I will need this luck even more.
I want to honour my story as you have honoured your own--by getting it 'out there' to the world. It deserves that and I deserve that too. I put SUCH hard work into it and even now, I am doing another edit. I am hypersensitive in nature and having agents shred it and delete it like it does not matter, is rather disconcerting.
To each of you who have already contributed to this thread and to those who have yet to, thank you for responding!
I am pleased that you found my ramble informative. It is good that you have your mother to help you. It may be worthwhile having a look at Indigo Dreams Publishing. They publish poetry magazines and books and novels. I have just bought Jubilation Wood by Juliet Johns from them. Like all their books, it is really well produced. I had two of my poems published in their quarterly poetry magazine, The Dawntreader, and they have accepted two more of my poems for publication in future issues. Here is the link: www.indigodreams.co.uk It would be really good if you read my book, Angel War. Available as a paperback since April, 2014, since March, 2014, it has also been available as an E-book. Here is the link: www.amazon.com/Angel-War-Philip-Dodd/...
Don't give up on your work, Angel. You are right in that withholding your story from the masses is doing yourself and your book an injustice. I believe that the best critics are the actual readers, the people who are engaged in the story, not publishers. Please know that I am not bashing publishers, agents or the industry. My personal belief is that a bad review by someone not employed in the book business is more valid to me than from a person who is, if that makes sense.
I, too, have written two books. I completed my first this summer and launched it digitally in May and then through CreateSpace.com in July, and I am currently working the second book in the series. I recently engaged in a GoodReads Giveaway. You should look into it, it's one of the things that GR does for its authors. It's a free service that they do for us; we are responsible for giving the winners their books. I set mine up for 30 days (readers can enter their names and addresses for thirty days) then GR picks the winners and sends me their addresses. I then sign my book and send them their copies. I plan to include a personal thank you for their participation.
In return, it is free advertising for me (I have over 200 entries and it's only been 48 hours). It's exposure. And yes, it is genre specific that you define. For example, I used Romance, Romantic Thriller, YA and Contemporary. GR advertises the giveaway to readers of those genres.
I am also thinking of using GR's Ad program. It seems simple. Once I set it up, I will update my experience this thread.
Another thing, you mention that you are having your family proofread. That's great and I use my mother as well, but my past experience with my first book leads me to the conclusion that hiring an editor is very important. I am currently pricing them. when I find one I like, I will recommend them here, as well.
On a final note, I recently sent another manuscript to a couple of literary agents. One never responded and the second gave me the standard, "Love your work but unfortunately..." letter. She claimed that because it was the second book of a series, that publishers wouldn't be interested unless the first book sole over 100,000 units. I was gracious with you response and thanked her; but my internal response was that if I had sold 100,000 units on my own, why would I need a publisher or agent in the first place? I queried because I need to know about marketing my book. I have decided to continue to self-publish for now.
A dear family friend, who is in marketing, advised me that authors are rarely successful on their first completed works. It usually takes three more books to get the name recognition you need to make a living.
Good luck and congratulations on completing that first book. Keep writing!
And to Philip: Thank you for all of your information as well. I plan on checking out indigo dreams.co.uk and fast-print.net. I'm always shopping for the right fit. I recently came across blueharvestcreations.com for book covers. I will be speaking with someone from their company today. I will report back here when I know more.
I recently self-published too via CreateSpace (print) and KDP (ebook). I first solicited major publishing houses and got rejected by all (stings!), so then I started reaching out to smaller, niche publishers. You wouldn't believe how happy I was that one of them responded positively, and I eventually went into a contract with them! BUT (dun, dun, dun....) over 9 months later, after they had already completely edited/approved my manuscript for printing and sent me a cover, some big merger fell through causing them to close up shop and revert ALL rights back to the authors. Honestly, in the end, I was happy for it (That is, after I got past the shock!). I felt like having a publisher behind my name was some extra oomph to my title, but really I did most of the leg work! Their 'editing' was pretty sub-par, and they missed so many errors... and upon sampling other author's work from the same publisher, I saw the same rushed work. Before they deemed my manuscript worthy of print (after just one editor reviewed it), I combed it probably 50x to make sure it was cleaned up and professional. They also sent me a cover that was not what I would have ever chosen myself (Of course this is just one publisher experience).
So when I got my rights back suddenly, I was ultimately relieved! I researched and researched and researched... and then I published my 1st novel just 4 days ago! :) I used a site called fiverr.com where you can hire freelancers for pretty cheap to make professional covers, format ebooks, edit, etc... and I'm overjoyed with the final product!
Now, if you want to talk marketing. That's a whole different ball game that will take a lot of studying and more research to learn. I'm just dipping my toes in, but if you have the creativity and skill to write a good book and the motivation and will to learn the business side to it, I think it will be very rewarding to self-publish (if not financially, then ultimately personally). It's such a freedom to hold your work in your own hands and have all the power. Trust me, it feels wrong to sign away your work and put in the hands of others with little say as to what happens to it in the future. Writing comes from the soul.. it's so personal! I vote keep the rights, and dedicate yourself to reaching the people that it needs to reach and don't worry about getting rich. That will come if it comes. Publisher, agent, or not, you're going to have to put most of the work! So why not keep all the profit?
I just found this 'Master Marketing Spreadsheet' for Google docs online. It's been super helpful and sort of a starting point for me. Hope it helps those going the self-publishing route!
[https://drive.google.com/previewtempl...#]
~Ash
Ashleigh, I couldn't agree more. The satisfaction of holding your own, completed work is so powerful. I'm sorry to hear of your bad experience with a publisher but happy it turned out well. Sounds like the merger was a blessing in disguise.My recent conversation with Blue Harvest Creative was very encouraging and I have opted to give them a shot. They aren't a publisher, but a full service self-publishing group (the best description I can come up with). Their rates are reasonable and interaction so far has been very personable. I'll keep this thread updated as I go.
One thing they said is that few publishers are issuing advances these days, unless you're a celebrity or politician. There are stories out there regarding contracts that require the author to pay for a publicist, editors and graphic designers.
If that is the case, I'd rather keep my rights as well, and work with a company that will offer author and writing services, especially if I'll have to pay for those services anyway.
Hi Elise,I think it was a blessing in disguise too. I can't believe after all the work I went through to get landed with a publisher that it ended up falling through, but it feels so amazing to have all the say in my work.
A full service self-publishing group might also be an interesting choice for the future for me. I'll have to check them out! While I actually enjoyed formatting my book and getting it ready for publishing, it would have been nice to have some sort of consultant to make sure I was doing it correctly. I had to research every step of the way to turn out a good product (so tiring).
And I agree, It's been a long time since I've heard of anyone getting an advance from a publisher and I don't think anyone should actually pay to sign a contract... It's sad vanity publishing takes advantage of writers like that. If you have to pay to get published, you might as well just do it yourself and keep the rights!
~Ash
So...I have been away for a long time (several months) and it is lovely to peruse "Goodreads" and see people here that I had the pleasure of meeting and speaking with (albeit in brief).
As for me, I have been working on two novels (for years)--but only on occasion until recently. However, something happened to me back in the middle of June, whereupon I became like a 'writer possessed'; I went to work on completing one of those novels and I did so with much gusto. I did take frequent respites (though I am still feeling exhausted from the mad spell of writing/editing just the same). Amid the course of 7 weeks spaced out over a five month period, I finished this particular novel.
I know that I am both stubborn and foolish in feeling that my work is 'not worth a salt' if I do not receive external professional acceptance. Recently, I submitted samples of my finished novel to a slew of literary agents but am now holding back from sending more. I have decided to 'tweak' certain areas of my book before I might pursue this. I had already done many edits, of course (including a 12,000 word one) but am now finding a few errors/typos (here and there) which between myself and two proofreaders (family members) were overlooked.
Yesterday, I received rejection letters from two separate literary agents (which I later used to kindle a fire started to toast marshmallows by ;)). Of course, I am depressed about it and wish they could at least 'tick a box'--or two--as to the reason(s) my work did not resonate with them. How much time would it take to be just courteous enough to do that? I wish that it was not common practice to reject would-be authors without even a sentence as to WHY the book did not 'sell' them. I feel writers are poorly treated in so many instances by the industry (but that is a topic for another thread).
This book which I have written, was born out of a very personal experience of mine; it had me practicing what I call 'soul-letting' throughout its text, leaving me 'raw' emotionally and even peevish on some occasions. Thus, it hurts more having it be declined than I deem having my fantasy fiction book rejected would/will when I have (finally) come to finish that.
After all this rambling and reflection, I now have the following questions for the authors who frequent this group (you don't have to answer each one of them, of course--just those you might resonate with):
Do any of you have a literary agent?
If you do, how many rejections did it take before your work was accepted by an agent?
How many rejections should I take before considering paying for professional criticism of my work?
How many of you are self-published as opposed to those of you who have been published via external publishing houses?
If you are self-published, how well has/have your book/books done?
What are the ways you go about promoting your work (apart from networking here at "Goodreads" and other online sites--or is that sufficient enough?)?
Am I being unrealistic in pursuing the ultimate publication of my novel via more traditional (and long-winded) means? What are the odds of that even happening?
If I decide to go by self-publishing in the end, could any of you please point me toward sites, or instructions as to where and how to do this? (As I don't even know how to define myself as a "Goodreads Author" here at the website!)
These last questions are geographically-specific. You see, I am American but am residing in the U.K. (with plans to return home to live in the coming year).
Thus, do any of you feel that American and British reading preferences differ? Do you feel these preferences differ from country to country overall?
Should not a good and strong story not be universal and therefore, appeal to the masses?
If I get nothing but rejections from British literary agents, should I then pursue American ones--without considering the hiring of a professional writing critic of my work beforehand and/or doing yet more of my own edits?
Thank you for your time; I really appreciate it.
P.S. I actually meant to post this along the "General Chat" thread. Sorry for the mix up and am happy to have it moved to a more appropriate section. Thank you.