SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
This topic is about
The Collapsing Empire
Group Reads Discussions 2020
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"The Collapsing Empire" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*
I'm just going to jump in here and let everybody "pile" on me. *GRIN* (I'm also not answering Allison's questions in order, and I apologize to Allison in advance ....)
First, I couldn't tell if this was a parody (of Dune, in particular) OR a serious work. Favoring the parody model? The repeated injection of irreverent remarks in the middle of serious scenes, Lady Kiva, and the curious correlations (and anti-correlations) between major Dune characters (for example Paul Atreides and Chani) and Empire characters (for example, Cardenia and Marce). Favoring the serious model? If the author was TRYING to parody Dune, a lot of interesting parody characters were missed.
My opinion of the characters (with the exception of Lady Kiva, who I'm getting to below) was strongly tied up in whether this was a "serious story" or a "parody story". If serious ... well ... I think "meh" is about as far as I get ... Dune just runs rings around this. While there were some good moments here and there, the character development just didn't ring "true" in a lot of places. For parody ... well ... somewhat better - but still a lot of missed opportunities.
NOW, Lady Kiva. My personal opinion is the Lady Kiva is "clickbait" and I refuse to "click" on it in this forum.
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Is this your first by Scalzi? He has a particular style...I don't think most of his works are parodies (Redshirts and perhaps a few others excepted) , but they are irreverent and often silly takes on solid genre tropes.
Jack wrote: "I think "meh" is about as far as I get ......"Exactly my sentiment - I don't even care enough to fully discuss this and don't think that anything will stay with me for long.
Concerning Allison's questions - sorry, probably an unpopular opinion:
1. Typical Scalzi: superficial, cool and good at swearing. Favorite is probably Kiwa at least she kicks ass!
2. I'm not even sure what was central about it - I was not convinced by the flow or the political intrigue. The best thing was the mutiny!
3. He does parodies or standalones much better, my favorite: Redshirts
4. Very meh - forgettable, though I have to confess that I laughed a few times.
In answer to Alison’s questions;1. Like Jack, I felt that I’ve met all these characters before in some form. We know straight away which side every character is on and they are given fairly stereotypical personalities (the book isn’t long enough for any more depth).
2. The same with the central concept(s), collapsing empire, unplanned succession, secret intrigues, etc. I agree with Sabrina, very superficial.
3. Never read Scalzis before. On the strength of this book I would read more but don’t feel a burning need to make sure I do immediately.
4. Despite what I have said for the first three answers, I have enjoyed reading this book for what it is, a fairly entertaining easy read with an enjoyable plot (regarding the lack of originality, with tens of thousands of books being published, plus the amount of other media being commissioned, how much originality can we expect?). As far as I’m concerned, I don’t need everything I read to be a thought provoking experience, sometimes I just need to be gently entertained which this book achieved.
I normally like Scalzi books, they’re fun, fast pasted and entertaining.I can’t say this one was much fun, though. I found all characters to be obnoxious and loud. I *know* he can do deep and touching, like in The Dispatcher, and hilarious like in Red Shirts, but then he also did The God Engines which was so serious I was confused through most of it about what it was I was reading.
This one was just grating on my nerves. I don’t think any of the excessive swearing actually brought anything to the story, it was just there for the sake of “Imma muthafuckin sailor and I’ll talk like one”.
I may read the next books just because it had such an open and I’m curious enough to want to know what happens next :)
Jack wrote: "First, I couldn't tell if this was a parody (of Dune, in particular) OR a serious work."I didn’t think it was a question. It’s just lightweight entertainment, which I enjoy every once in a while. For Scalzi this is cruise control.
I mean, the spaceship names are silly. This takes place in the, what, 36th century?, and the ship names include Yes Sir, That’s My Baby* and No Sir, I Don’t Mean Maybe. I’m guessing he watched When Harry Met Sally when he was writing. I would not be surprised if the third book will have a reference to “baby fish mouth” in it. (https://youtu.be/AXnDqXSQwFc)
And isn’t one of the corporate conglomerates called “House of Tois”? Yeah, goofy fun.
I think that’s just one of things you’re either in the mood for or you aren’t.
*Edit: for those too young to get the reference, it’s a song from the 1920s: https://youtu.be/sxVy2YtT7xU
Scalzi discusses some of the inspirations for The Collapsing Empire here:https://www.tor.com/2017/03/28/someth...
Yes - Dune was one although he eventually decided that he was following it too closely.
The ship names made me think of Iain Banks's Culture universe. The names were indeed a salute to that body of work.
I don't know where the swearing came from. Maybe that's just Scalzi.
Trike wrote: ... *Edit: for those too young to get the reference, it’s a song from the 1920s: https://youtu.be/sxVy2YtT7xU"I wonder how many times that's been recorded over the last hundred years? The version that I remember is from the '50s but this recent take on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrsLT...
is the bees knees.
I'm a little dubious of the movie connection. That's not the scene that comes to mind for most people when they think of When Harry Met Sally.
I read this when it first came out and loved every sentence.Scalzi is my go to feel-good author. His phrasing brings a smile to my face and I just like the people he creates. By the end of this I wished several of the female characters were my best friends.
I like the central concept, maybe it was a bit on the nose as a parallel to climate change but as Scalzi never takes himself too seriously I didn't feel I was getting hammered over the head with the message.
This has become one of my favourite Scalzi's mainly because of the Emperox and Lady Kiva but also because the second book in the series was just as good.
I read this in November 2018. As Trike said it’s lightweight entertainment. Even though I seemed to give it 4⭐️ it didn’t inspire me to read the next one and to be honest I can’t even remember what happened. Except there were supposed to be things collapsing. If I picked up the second one I’d probably remember enough to follow along. I’d only ever read Redshirts by him before and that was the same. He doesn’t really impress me that much.
This book was a lot of fun for me. Brilliant? No, but I rounded it up to 4 stars. I want to read the next one and hope that it's as fun. That said, at least some of the characters were over the top (Kiva, to name just one of them) and the believable factor wasn't the highest, but I read it fast without any deep thought (deep thought would kill the fun of this) or analysis. And, as others have said, we've met these characters before as they are not unusual types for any space or soap operas (I am hazarding a guess at daytime soaps, and don't really watch night soaps much, either)But I do like the characters and have ordered the next two from the library. I'm only number 3 for the third book which I am guessing hasn't been released yet since only one library appears to have it on order. I am hoping to see that ship's captain from the prologue again later, but am not holding my breath. I quite liked her.
I am on the wrong browser to listen to the music links, but I recognized the song titles for the ship names, and I thought that quite fun.
This was more fun for me than was Red Shirts, but my favourite series of his so far is Lock In. I dropped that other one, ghosts or whatever it was--not my cup of tea.
I actually didn't like the ship naming structure. I wasn't familiar with any of the song titles/lyrics and I found them hard to keep straight as to which ship was which.
Karin wrote: "... I'm only number 3 for the third book which I am guessing hasn't been released yet since only one library appears to have it on order. I am hoping to see that ship's captain from the prologue again later, but am not holding my breath. I quite liked her...."The third book (The Last Emperox) is due out April 14th. I'd love to see that ship's captain again too!
I enjoyed this quite a bit, and see the parallels to our own situation (climate change denial, anyone?). I appreciated the conversations that took place in The Memory Room, as an avatar makes for an interesting (and sometimes frustrating) discussion partner
Generally a good fun book. Good enough that I grabbed the next book "Consuming Fire" to continue the story. (Which 80 pages in, he is still doing the "summary and explaination" of the last book for those who didn't read it stuff. Very annoying) As I mentioned in the no spoilers section this had me doing flash backs to Azimov's Foundation. Not a bad thing. Haven't talked to my 12 year old self in a while. The characters were not deep, but mostly personable. The Nohamapetans were a bit on the "straw man" to be knocked down side. I mean Nadashe is set up to be the genius manipulator, but seems to be doing her best to get caught, and general stupidity. You see this a lot in pop fiction. To write a genius character you kind of need to be a genius. To be a master manipulator you kind of need to be a master manipulator. Scalzi, alas, is nether of these.
Reading that sounds a little harsh, so I add that his creative output is amazing, and his writing style is easy and smooth to read. As well as a nice walk down memory lane. A fun, if not earth moving, 4 star read.
Ryan wrote: "I actually didn't like the ship naming structure. I wasn't familiar with any of the song titles/lyrics and I found them hard to keep straight as to which ship was which."Yes, now that I see you're from Korea I can see that would be difficult. They are older American songs and even Canadians are often familiar with them. I didn't know all of them, but just enough.
Chris wrote: "Generally a good fun book. Good enough that I grabbed the next book "Consuming Fire" to continue the story. (Which 80 pages in, he is still doing the "summary and explaination" of the last book for..."Wow, 80 pages of summary is a LOT even if there is a year or two between books! But at least we're forewarned.
E.D. wrote: "In answer to Alison’s questions;1. Like Jack, I felt that I’ve met all these characters before in some form. We know straight away which side every character is on and they are given fairly stere..."
Scalzi is not an author to read when looking for depth, that's for sure. There are times I don't want depth, just an enjoyable, quick read. He isn't one of my go to authors, and, in fact, I generally only read him for group discussions here or if someone here likes it and it fits a reading game or challenge I am doing (I don't do those every year, either.) But if he doesn't bore me too much with his long rehash in the second book I want to see what happens. While I don't like romance novels, there are times when I am a bit of a sucker for romance in novels at times, and even though it was 100 percent predictable, I am in the mood to see that one pan out if it does even if it is February.
I’m glad that there’s a “previously” bit at the beginning of Consuming Fire. I might just remember something then. It’s been a little while and I’m having trouble remembering what happened in books I’ve read recently and loved. I’m an Australian born in the early 60s and I had no trouble with the ship names. But then again the movies we’d see on TV a lot were from the 30s, 40s, and 50s. Bit like how we get old favourites from the 70s on. I used to love all the old movies with Gene, Frank, Bing, Bob and the rest. Never get them on nowadays except on a Sunday arvo if you’re lucky. I do have a few in my DVD collection but it’s at the Mountains house I believe. They had all of the Beach movies with Annette and Frankie a year or so ago. Anyhoo...back to books 🤪
Jacqueline said, I’m glad that there’s a “previously” bit at the beginning of Consuming Fire. I might just remember something then. It’s been a little while and I’m having trouble remembering what happened in books I’ve read recently and loved.Don't worry Jacqueline, I was born in the 50s and often can't remember where I put my keys 10 minutes ago (mind you I've always like that).
Karin wrote: "Ryan wrote: "I actually didn't like the ship naming structure. I wasn't familiar with any of the song titles/lyrics and I found them hard to keep straight as to which ship was which."Yes, now tha..."
I'm actually American, but living in Korea. The problem with the ship names for me is, I expect, that I'm younger than Scalzi (30's) and that I have never paid much attention to popular music. I'm probably familiar with most of the songs that have had a relatively large impact on American pop culture of the past couple decades - but I don't think the ship names in this book fall under this category.
Ryan wrote: "Karin wrote: "Ryan wrote: "I actually didn't like the ship naming structure. I wasn't familiar with any of the song titles/lyrics and I found them hard to keep straight as to which ship was which."..."Yes, age--I saw you were young and thought it might be that but then saw Korea. If you are in your 30s it's far less likely you saw parts of those old movies on TV (or even all of them, but for me I think it was mostly parts) plus the variety shows that used to be on are all before your time :)
Ryan wrote: "I'm probably familiar with most of the songs that have had a relatively large impact on American pop culture of the past couple decades - but I don't think the ship names in this book fall under this category..."And it’s equally likely Scalzi doesn’t know newer songs. (Although with a teenage daughter he might know some. The only reason I know Shawn Mendes and Jonas Brothers is because I have two teenage neighbors.)
Going to the store in your 50s is like visiting a parallel universe: none of the celebrities on the magazines are familiar at all. It’s like, “Oh, they have Oprah on this Earth, too, but who are these kids? Who is Lizzo? What’s a Juice WRLD?”
This is my first Scalzi and I enjoyed it in a throwaway fun adventure type way. The characterisation was superficial and tropey but within that, it was done well. What I really liked was the setting, with the Flow and the physics surrounding it.
Like above, I got a serious Foundation vibe from the setting, I mean he didn't even hide it that much End == Terminus
The parallel with Global warming is hard to miss too.
Certainly interested in finding out what happens next.
aside, I listened to this on Audible with Wil Wheaton doing the narration - It certainly helped with the over the top characters :)
Trike wrote: "RGoing to the store in your 50s is like visiting a parallel universe: none of the celebrities on the magazines are familiar at all. It’s like, “Oh, they have Oprah on this Earth, too, but who are these kids? Who is Lizzo? What’s a Juice WRLD?”."Yes, and I even have kids the right age to know this stuff, but they don't! One listens mainly to classical music as well as some Christian pop, one listens to more of a mix with her boyfriend but doesn't really talk about the artists to me (shocking, I know, for a college student!) and the other is mostly Christian pop.
That said, I am starting to hear about 21st century "classical" composers who are young...
This was my first Scalzi and I also really enjoyed it. It was very entertaining and easy to read.As some have said, it's not the deepest of books, but it does have an interesting setting with the flow, and it's imminent collapse. I also immediately saw the parallel with climate change, so I wouldn't say that the book is completely devoid of depth.
I don't think the characters were the richest, but they were likeable and funny.
It's nice to find out about the ship names. When I was reading I just thought they were funny, but I didn't know about those references (I'm not an American).
I definitely want to read the other two books on this series. This was a fun read.
I noticed the writing style which started as fun Douglas Adams like humor changed into more serious tone, it felt so uneven and made the humor feel forced. Otherwise, I did like the story, I wasn’t invested, but it’s an interesting setting. Sadly, forgettable characters, just like the previous book of his I read.
I admit I had to fight a DNF. It's not really the book's fault, but I read so many novels with similar (feeling) settings/plots the last year that it just was 'another one of those'. The characters weren't special enough to make it stand out from the crowd.I've read 2 of Scalzi's novels so far, which both started interesting but somehow got meh the longer I read on. This one was the other way round. The last chapters were better than the beginning.
What came as a great relief was his change in dialogue writing. Much better here.
What killed it in the end for me was Kiva. I honestly don't want to read any more novels where a character can't formulate a sentence without cursing. I'm so fed up with this. Her chapters I skimmed after a while.
Gabi wrote: "What killed it in the end for me was Kiva. I honestly don't want to read any more novels where a character can't formulate a sentence without cursing. I'm so fed up with this. ."
Yes, it was overkill, and I don't care if she did get it from her mother. It is one of the reasons it was only 3 stars for me.
He lives in Ohio. We curse like breathing.
Trike wrote: "He lives in Ohio. We curse like breathing."I can curse with the best of them, but am not happy about it. I try to keep it down because where I live if you use it in the wrong context you are considered the height of rude, ignorant and a social moron.
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But I also sometimes like silliness and snark way more than some, so I was predisposed to be fine with it.
Karin wrote: "Trike wrote: "He lives in Ohio. We curse like breathing."I can curse with the best of them, but am not happy about it. I try to keep it down because where I live if you use it in the wrong contex..."
Buckeyes use it like sprinkles on ice cream. 🍨😋
So this was a lot of fun! And I needed a fun read. I could see where you have to be in the mood for something breezy and light, or otherwise characters like Kiva could get on your nerves. But like Allison, I enjoyed the silly, snarky parts. I've been having a stressful time at work so coming home to this book every day was perfect. The central concept being climate change denialism works really well, I think, in spite of the fact that it's so light-spirited. That feeling that life as you know it is going to change drastically, and soon, and you have to prepare for that whether you like it or not--it was kind of a punch to the gut. So in that sense, pretty effective. And yet if you wanted to, you could just read it without making or exploring that connection, which would be pretty ironic.
I didn't really understand the lack of fear and anxiety the characters had when faced with this info, though. Maybe it's just me projecting my own climate anxieties, but I'd be much more terrified.
Gabi wrote: "...What killed it in the end for me was Kiva. I honestly don't want to read any more novels where a character can't formulate a sentence without cursing...."I really disliked this aspect of Kiva as well. The part of me that grew up in Minnesota a long, long time ago still remembers having "If you can't say something nice it's not worth saying" drilled into me by all of my adult relatives. I guess that's where "Minnesota nice" comes from. We don't mean it but I would have appreciated an appearance of at least trying.
It's not only the cursing. She's also insulting others (that sh*** and such) and bullies her way through. That's a behaviour I don't stand for. It's stressing enough to face this at the schools of my boys.
Gabi wrote: "What killed it in the end for me was Kiva. I honestly don't want to read any more novels where a character can't formulate a sentence without cursing. I'm so fed up with this."I didn't mind that at all. Maybe where I live cursing is a lot more normal, but I have a lot of friends that talk similar to Kiva, so I thought it was somehow relatable, and less artificial than other characters. I find the opposite (characters that always talk in an unnecessary posh language), more annoying in general, and less natural. I don't know anyone who talks like that. I do know a lot of people who talk like Kiva, and yet somehow the extra-posh-talking characters seem to be more common in fiction.
As I said before, I really enjoyed the book, but I must say that the climax (the scene where a shuttle crashes into the tenner), to be a bit underwhelming. Am I alone in this? I was enjoying the book a lot and I guess I was expecting a more exciting closure to the story.
I'll make two posts. The first with my thought before reading (and being influenced by) what everyone else wrote. Second I'll after reading what everyone else wrote.Characters
Let's start with the most obviously provoking character - Lady Kiva. At first whenever she had a chapter I was a bit irritated and wished we could just skip her. She just felt fake. And then as the book went on we started to see more of her softer interior behind that hard and wild shell. I the end I think she is way more of a softy that she herself will admit. On the down side, she reminds me a bit too much of a certain detective Leslie Vann in "Locked In".
My favourite character is Marce. He feels the most down to earth. I feel Cardenia still needs a lot of character development in the following books, and I hope she gets it.
Then there are the Nohamapetans. With them you always know there is something more coming in order for them to get what they want. They never give up - a worthy trait in a villian.
Central Concepts
The idea of the flow (and it collapsing) as well as the societal setup works really well for me as a story element. You can see how each of them can go amis and it brings a nice element of tension to the story.
The only other Scalzi books I have read thus far are the two 'Locked In' novels. This is much different to me; it took me much longer to get into the book with 'Collapsing Empire'.
Other thoughts
How cool are the spaceship names?! They make me laugh. Everytime the 'Yes, Sir' is mentioned I can just imagine Kiva saying to some official 'Yes, Sir, that's my baby'. Proud of her ship. And it also reflects her character.
Loved the prelude (much more than the first couple of chapters) and also, surprisingly, enjoyed the Interlude.
The memory vault is a great idea. In fact, it makes me want to read the Cardenia chapters. Where on other hand she is quite a boring character.
Found the ending blunt. Yes, the immediate threat has been resolved, but it feels like the actual story hasn't started yet. (Almost like the end of 'The Fellowship of the Ring'.) This book can definitely not be read as a standalone.
Overall thoughts
I am usually not a fan of space operas, but I enjoy Scalzi's writing. He manages to keep a line of tension right to the end. And I really enjoy the humour he brings into the story. I already pre-ordered the third in the series and am looking forward to reading the next one as soos as I find the time within the next two months.
Karin wrote: "This book was a lot of fun for me. Brilliant? No, but I rounded it up to 4 stars. I want to read the next one and hope that it's as fun. That said, at least some of the characters were over the top..."Hoping to see the prologue's ships captain again too!
Trike wrote: "Jack wrote: "First, I couldn't tell if this was a parody (of Dune, in particular) OR a serious work."I didn’t think it was a question. It’s just lightweight entertainment, which I enjoy every onc..."
Ah! I had a hunch that it was references to song lyrics. Thanks for sharing!
Trike wrote: "Karin wrote: "Trike wrote: "He lives in Ohio. We curse like breathing."I can curse with the best of them, but am not happy about it. I try to keep it down because where I live if you use it in th..."
I don't like to read much of it or hear it much because then it comes out of my mouth in places where it shouldn't. I fully realized that some of the words were once perfectly acceptable English, since there are two words in the KJV of the Bible that are now considered curse words in certain uses, and let's not forget at least one funny scene in Shakespeare were someone calls a magistrate an ass and the magistrate has a lot of fun with it (not sure if it was Cymbaline or another).
Allison wrote: "I liked Kiva because she's how I sound in my head. I proooobably remove about 1/3 the f-bombs I think. I try not to curse here or around minors or other people who won't curse around me, and I try ..."In the right circustances I find cursing relaxing especially when it is creative. It has been shown to release adrenaline which helps you cope with stress and pain.
Creative cursing and creative use of cursing (ie not just to be mean to people) is linked with generally having a rich vocabulary.
Esther wrote: "Creative cursing and creative use of cursing (ie not just to be mean to people) is linked with generally having a rich vocabulary."Have you seen the Biden Insult Bot that The Daily Show created? It’s a hoot, is what it is: https://mobile.twitter.com/BidenInsul...
Go hike the pike, you hotso-totso trollywag
— Joe Biden Insult Bot (@BidenInsultBot) February 11, 2020
Go kiss a jellyfish, ya mutton-munchin' Toblerone
— Joe Biden Insult Bot (@BidenInsultBot) February 10, 2020
Trike wrote: "Have you seen the Biden Insult Bot that The Daily..."LOL!
In general I like Scalzi and the Interdependency novels are no exception. Scalzi is a bit cathartic and snarky and intelligent and in general in the end, the good guys win and the bad guys lose...though it may take a book or three to get there. I guess I'm in the minority as I am not a fan of his Lock In universe at all. The Collapsing Empire is an improvement in my view.
I haven’t finished yet, but am thoroughly enjoying the book. Especially as my daughter bought me the large print version by mistake, so I don’t need glasses for a change.I always read Scalzi for the laughs and irreverent sense of humour. If you want deep characterisation then go elsewhere.
The only thing that has annoyed me so far is the large lull when we aren’t updated about Cardenia/Grayland II.
The plot is light and easy to follow, and there is conniving and backstabbing aplenty. Typical Scalzi fare, and why I go back again and again. Not my favourite, that’s probably ‘Fuzzy Nation,’ but I was happy to find the next book in the series for a quid on Amazon so picked it up immediately.
Trike wrote: "Biden Insult Bot that The Daily..."That's awesome, thanks for sharing!
Monica wrote: "I guess I'm in the minority as I am not a fan of his Lock In universe at all."Come sit by me; I thought that book was ridiculously dumb. He’s better when he’s being intentionally goofy.
I just enjoyed the second one over the weekend, and am now awaiting the third.
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Lock In (other topics)The Last Emperox (other topics)
The Collapsing Empire (other topics)
Redshirts (other topics)
A few questions to kick off discussion:
1. What did you think of the characters?
2. What did you think of the central concept?
3. How did this compare to other Scalzis/would you read more by him?
4. Overall thoughts?