The History Book Club discussion
This topic is about
Landslide
PRESIDENTIAL SERIES
>
WE ARE OPEN - WEEK TWO - PRESIDENTIAL SERIES: LANDSLIDE - December 8th - December 14th - Chapter Two - No Spoilers, Please
date
newest »
newest »
This chapter had some interesting insights to Reagan. An actor on the downtrend looking for the next paycheck. No real surprise that he went into politics. I really wanted more insight into Reagan and Nancy Davis. I always felt that she was the driving force in their relationship. Maybe in later chapters. I did enjoy the Lee Marvin story.
Oh yes, the Lee Marvin story! I am going to have to rent that movie.Jumping in here, I have read most of this thread, amazing discussions on many details and opinions on LBJ's and Reagan's terms as president and the cultural era they presided over.
I am just going to comment on my impressions from reading the second chapter.
P. 34: "Kennedy, he'd once implied, was a Marxist with a pretty face." Reagan expressed this idea when making appearances on behalf of Richard Nixon & possibly Barry Goldwater.
Just based on that, Reagan was not a moderate conservative, IMHO.
I also get the impression the Reagan was very much concerned about how he was perceived, hoping to project an image of being the successful hero. He was drawn to being the center of attention. (as a young man, a lifeguard, as an actor, portraying the good guy, always getting the girl). I did not get the impression that he was a deep thinker.
He was proponent of the free-market ideology, which he spoke about as he attended speaking engagements for conservative events, being a staunch anti-communist (p. 34). Personally, it is hard for me to relate to his level of fear of communism. I was pretty young during the peak of the Cold War, McCarthy hearings, Rosenberg's execution, but in retrospect, I am pretty sure I would not have been sympathetic to his fears if I had been older and more aware.
With his acting career waining in his early 50's, his marriage to a famous actress failed, rescued by an adoring pretty actress Nancy Davis, TV career over, (GE unceremoniously dropped the show he hosted, which he thought was due to his politics), he took a "B" part in a movie, which he did not really like. To sum it up, he was not my ideal contender to become leader of the free world. But as we read further, maybe I will learn more about Reagan's philosophies that will change my opinion about him for the better.
I have to add, I am thoroughly enjoying reading everything that everyone is posting on this reading. Many discussions that I am not prepared to participate, but are very full of ideas and facts that are new to me.
I did want to contribute one thing to the question about music during this time that Bently asked, that I hadn't noticed anyone else mentioned, the musical: Hair. I think it reflected lifestyles of the young people in the '60s. My parents saw the musical on Broadway, and bought the album soundtrack for us kids to listen to (1967). We memorized the lyrics and grew into the culture as teens, so much so, that eventually we marched in protests against war and adopted the music and dress of that period, much to the chagrin of our parents.
Jim,The nickname "LBJ" may have been created by Johnson himself, but "Lady Bird" was his wife's childhood nickname. See http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/first.... I think her husband often called her "Bird."
I agree that he sometimes treated her terribly, but I also think that her support was essential to him. She made his career her job. Women don't do that much any more, which is a good thing.
Martin wrote: "Carter did an interview with Playboy during which he let on that he lusted for some women in his heart. In my mind, that was a strong negative indicator as lust is not felt in the heart.":-) Thanks for the laugh. I needed that.
Holly,Thanks for citing this: P. 34: "Kennedy, he'd once implied, was a Marxist with a pretty face." Reagan expressed this idea when making appearances on behalf of Richard Nixon & possibly Barry Goldwater.
This is so far off the mark that it makes me question Reagan's political intelligence.
I liked your citing of the musical "Hair." I saw that play a couple of years ago, and it is still fun - definitely appealing to those of us who were young at the time.
Mod
I loved your entire post Holly - great job and insights. I have to say that some of the Reagan's speech on behalf of Goldwater was mean spirited although pitch perfect in its delivery.
Ann wrote: "Holly,Thanks for citing this: P. 34: "Kennedy, he'd once implied, was a Marxist with a pretty face." Reagan expressed this idea when making appearances on behalf of Richard Nixon & possibly Barry ..."
"This is so far off the mark that it makes me question Reagan's political intelligence."
Playing devils advocate here for a second would that not mean that we have to question every political figure's political intelligence? Things like this are said in politics by both sides all of the time and especially in an election year.
On most issues I come down on the conservative side. There are many who would say something similar (particularly in that era) just because someone rested to the left of an issue. My sister and brother were in high school when Kennedy was in office while I was born in 1964. My sister has described some of her impressions of Kennedy. In many ways (I think and my opinion) Kennedy was almost a teen idol and for anyone to say anything negative about him was just considered wrong. (I understand that last statement to be highly generalized). The point of my post really was to point out that every political figure regardless of party has said things that in hind site were not helpful and only worth taking back.
Mod
Bentley wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Ann wrote: "Christopher,I agree that Johnson's legislative program clearly drew more voters into the Democratic fold - which they especially needed AFTER the Civil Rights Bill..."
In ways it has. Tocqueville's quote has come true. What are entitlement programs but bribe's from our government to us via our own tax dollars. The current way tax's are done and our tax returns when we get money back are the same. Though this is my opinion. Someone else may see it differently then I do.
Michael,Good response. I would like to clarify that I was not criticizing Reagan because of his conservative views.
It is just a pet peeve of mine when people use inaccurate loaded language to target someone they dislike politically. I'm not a big fan of Kennedy either, but there is no way that he even came close to being a "Marxist." Similarly, there are many valid reason to criticize Obama, but there is no way that he is a "socialist." When people misuse terms like these, it makes me wonder if they have any idea what the words they are throwing around really mean. I probably pay attention to this kind of thing more because I studied communism and Eastern European history when I got my Master's a long time ago.
I recognize that the other side of the political spectrum can be guilty of this political name calling as well. I don't like it no matter who does it.
Yeah, this quote is hard to discern because the author said "implied" (p. 43), so it makes sense to me it was campaign rhetoric. We don't even know where, when, or who he said it to.
Thanks, Michael. I really like the back and forth discussion of this forum. It wouldn't be worth much if we all agreed all the time. The ideas in your last post are very true.
Bryan,Excellent point that Darman does not tell us when or where Reagan drew the Marxist comparison to Kennedy. He does cite Dalleck in the book The Right Moment, p. 38 in the notes, but I don't have this book.
I did a little searching and found this letter that Reagan wrote to then Vice-President Nixon in 1960. This may be the source of the story. Reagan wrote:
One last thought - shouldn't someone tag Mr. Kennedy's bold new imaginative program with its proper age? Under the tousled boyish haircut is still old Karl Marx - first launched a century ago. There is nothing new in the idea of a Government being Big Brother to us all. Hitler called his 'State Socialism' and way before him it was 'benevolent monarchy.'
Here is the whole letter: http://www.nytimes.com/1984/10/27/us/...
by Matthew Dallek (no photo)
Thanks, Ann, ouch, hard rhetoric there.
Mod
Ann wrote: "Thanks, Michael. I really like the back and forth discussion of this forum. It wouldn't be worth much if we all agreed all the time. The ideas in your last post are very true."Couldn't agree more. Nice to be able to share ideas and debate in a friendly forum.
Mod
Michael I did have to move the comment to a spoiler thread - it is in the Book as a Whole thread and thank you for understanding - the comment is there. But I also agree with everyone else that it is nice to share ideas and debate in a friendly forum which this is. Obamacare is a wee bit off topic (smile) but is fine to discuss on the spoiler thread (Book as a Whole) or any spoiler thread in the folder - (Glossary or Bibliography too).
message 269:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Dec 15, 2014 09:17AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
Good response. I would like to clarify that I was not criticizing Reagan because of his conservative views.
It is just a pet peeve of mine when people use inaccurate loaded language to ..."
Very true - the power of words and how they are misused by folks who do not understand the difference or by some who do but want to flame bait the media or incite the American people still continues to this day.
Mod
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
He is answering questions right now - please keep posting your questions as you read Landslide on the thread above for Jonathan.
The author is in the house.
To me it sums it up by saying that Reagan was watching how the entire forest was being pruned, while LBJ was watching each tree. LBJ took a more individual stance on politics with minute details and focus, while Reagan took a much broader sense and wrapped his mind around delegating issues.Reagan was build from the era of the 50's under the GE contract and that helped solidify his style of management and self preservation.
LBJ had to come into his own under the shadow of the Kennedy's so he had to get involved in everything and not simply delegate and manage from afar.
Mod
True, but I believe the thrust of the office at the assassination really set the tone for his need to micromanage the Oval Office.
Mod
Wow, what a interesting article on Sorenson that you posted, Bentley. He and Kennedy were kindred spirits.
Chef wrote: "To me it sums it up by saying that Reagan was watching how the entire forest was being pruned, while LBJ was watching each tree. LBJ took a more individual stance on politics with minute details a..."interesting analysis.
I think that Reagan had management experience from his union days and being governor - I think for GE he was just a spokesman reading a script.
I also think that LBJ was in his own with his own style before Kennedy came to the Senate. LBJ was if anything losing his own persona under the non-appreciation of JFK.
Just different thoughts as to the development of these characters in our reading.
I also think that working his way up in politics from small Texas constituencies LBJ saw the nitty gritty uptight and felt it needed his attention - or that his staff felt he was looking anyway maybe
Mod
Very much so
Mod
Yes Vince - being put down constantly, belittled - and around the Kennedy team actually deflated Lyndon and turned him into something he was not - odd how that kind of association can make a person doubt themselves and their own talents and abilities.
Bentley wrote: "Vince wrote: "Chef wrote: "To me it sums it up by saying that Reagan was watching how the entire forest was being pruned, while LBJ was watching each tree. LBJ took a more individual stance on pol..."Especially a man as tough and politically savvy as LBJ. I have really gotten a different impression of the Kennedy team since reading this book and how they pushed LBJ around.
Mod
Page 38 mentions RR's marriage collapse and his dead end acting career, resulting in him recognizing that he is not destined for greatness after all. I wonder at that point if he had really expected to be great one day...and if so, whether he now thought it was after all not to be. He seemed too much of a almost naive optimist to reach a place where he might have thought it was all for naught.
Who knows whether RR really imagined greatness on the football field (page 40)... But he certainly had a sense of timing, opportunity, and stage...and perhaps that was enough for him to get into sports.
I suppose many of us (hopefully most) eventually stumble upon what in life is the right fit for us. Certainly for RR, his moment in the drama club (page 41) seemed to be one of those key moments. Suddenly the glass slipper fit perfectly...
Yes, ambition (page 48)...and optimism. RR seemed irrepressibly optimistic. Defeat was not in his vocabulary...
Nancy Reagan's viewpoint on RR is interesting (page 49). His ambition did seem to be very well camouflaged by his humor, lightheartedness, unwillingness to get rattled, etc. it would be easy to think of him as a lightweight wannabe actor rather than an ambitious politician...likely underestimated everywhere he went...
Mod
I am not sure Lewis - that was early on so maybe his belief system about himself was in flux. Might be a question to ask the author.
Mod
True
Lewis wrote: "I suppose many of us (hopefully most) eventually stumble upon what in life is the right fit for us. Certainly for RR, his moment in the drama club (page 41) seemed to be one of those key moments. S..."Maybe most of us contort to fit into the opportunity that we find - and then get as comfortable as we can.
Maybe much less true in less prosperous and less democratic societies?
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Decision Points (other topics)Abortion and the Conscience of the Nation (other topics)
Talleyrand: The Art of Survival (other topics)
The Passage of Power (other topics)
Broke : The Plan to Restore our Trust, Truth and Treasure (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Matthew Dallek (other topics)George W. Bush (other topics)
Ronald Reagan (other topics)
Jean Orieux (other topics)
Robert A. Caro (other topics)
More...
And I think I would throw W in that category as well. Outside of using "may God continue to bless the United States of America..." to close a lot of his speeches, he didn't publicly talk about his faith often during his Presidency.
But if you read his memoirs he talks an awful lot about the effect his faith has on his world view (and on his decision to stop drinking).