The Foundling - Dec 2014 Group Read - Finished with SPOILERS

[Amy]

Discuss your thoughts on the book.

[Jenny]

I like Gilly's uniqueness as a hero. I think in most of the other romances you've got what GH herself called her 'Mark 1' and 'Mark 2' heroes - either smart, handsome and polite, or swarthy, craggy, scruffy and rude, with occasional mix 'n matching of those qualities - or else as in Friday's Child or Cotillion, a minor character from another book recycled.
I don't think we see Gilly anywhere else, though.

My only reservation about this book is the way Gilly's feelings for Harriet suddenly change for no apparent reason - after they've known each other for years, too.

[Abigail]

Jenny wrote, “My only reservation about this book is the way Gilly’s feelings for Harriet suddenly change . . .”

My sense of that is that he changed, not so much his feelings about her. He was living by this belief that he was trapped by his uncle and his servants and his duties, and was constantly focused on his desire for a freer life, and saw her as part of that entrapment. But after he began to appreciate the life he had and began to take charge of things more, he was ready to appreciate her properly and her place in his life.

[Jacquie]

Also, as Gilly gained control over his own life he came to see Harriet as a partner in maintaining that control as when she helped him get Belinda settled.

[Jenny]

Abigail wrote:
My sense of that is that he changed, not so much his feelings about her. He was liv..."

Yes, that's a very good point. I hadn't seen it that way before!

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

Well I'm patting myself on my back for suggesting this one! :D
& blown away by how much I enjoyed it. Wonderful watching Gilly grow up. A host of fabulous minor characters, including the awful Liversedge! One of Heyer's best villains.

IN the "December Read" thread, HJ actually touched on one of the things I had a problem with in my earlier reads. I did previously think that Gideon had been made too appealing. My older self now values Gilly!

I wonder if GH ever thought of giving Gideon his own romance?

[Teresa]

Abigail wrote: My sense of that is that he changed, not so much his feelings about her. He was living by this belief that he was trapped by his uncle and his servants and his duties, and was constantly focused on his desire for a freer life, and saw her as part of that entrapment ...

Oh, good point. I was another who thought his feelings for her changed a little too suddenly, but what you say makes perfect sense.

And she was so trapped in what she had been told was ladylike behavior, she couldn't express her feelings for him.

[Amy]

I really love Harriet in the book. I like how we are led to believe that Gilly really doesn't have any interest in her and to dislike her somewhat. The way she is described by Lord Lionel makes her seem boring and I instantly disliked her being forced upon Gilly. Then we meet her and she's shy but thoughtful. I suspect she has more personality when her mother is not around and I thought the scene when she and Gilly were first engaged and teasing each other about dancing was great.

So ... score one for Lord Lionel. He was a good matchmaker for Gilly.

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

Amy wrote: "I really love Harriet in the book. I like how we are led to believe that Gilly really doesn't have any interest in her and to dislike her somewhat. The way she is described by Lord Lionel makes h..."

& it's a nice feature that Gilly's family & retinue are all trying to act in Gilly's best interests - even though they are ridiculously over protective of him. Even Gideon feels the need to intervene in Gilly's arguement with Charlie.

I think GH was enjoying playing around with the genre. A guardian family that wasn't trying to steal the hero's inheritence, a sweet hero who is no fool & so on.

[Jenny]

What I wonder sometimes is "How does Liversedge get away with it?"

He's a violent criminal, a kidnapper, a blackmailer, he callously uses Belinda with no thought for her welfare and is prepared to murder if offered sufficient inducement ... and yet, Gilly likes him, and somehow, we can't help liking him too, even though we know all this.

So what's his secret?

[Margaret]

I think one reason is that his self-congratulating egotism is funny, in the same way that the Old Gentleman in The Masqueraders is funny -- because it's over-the-top.

[Jacquie]

I particularly enjoyed the way Liversedge bamboozled Gilly's uncle when acting as butler. I think L. actually believes his own lies!

[Amy]

I think Liversedge needs his own spinoff book. I wanted to dislike him the entire time but I just couldn't.

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

Since I enjoyed this book so much I may try to find a Jeffrey Farnol again.

I'm sure this is the one I read & didn't much care for https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3...

At the time I remember thinking it was similar in style to The Foundling.

[Ellen]

Jenny wrote: "What I wonder sometimes is "How does Liversedge get away with it?"

He's a violent criminal, a kidnapper, a blackmailer, he callously uses Belinda with no thought for her welfare and is prepared t..."

I am very much of a rule follower myself(sometimes not a very attractive trait) so I think that is why Livershedge annoys me a lot. One of my favorite scenes in the book is when he mistakes Gideon's reaction to his offer to murder Gilly and Gideon chokes him. At least in that case he gets what he deserves.

[Amy]

Do you think Harriet and Gilly will be happy together? Long term what do you see life for them like? Particularly with Lord Lionel. Will he ever really step back?

[Jacquie]

How far is Gilly from taking complete control of his inheritance and free of Lord Lionel's control? Gilly's escape from L's smothering influence and G's marriage should give G. more control over his life. I think Gilly and Harriet will will have a happily contented life,esp if family can be kept at bay!

[Jenny]

I think Lord & Lady Lionel will move out when Harriet is installed as Duchess and mistress of the house. There is almost certainly a Dower House available for them that they will have been expecting to move into. That will give Gilly much more space; he'll be able to quietly drop Belper's acquaintance and will probably be able to retire Romney to a good living with a healthy young curate to do the actual work for him.

[Barbara]

Ellen wrote: "Jenny wrote: "What I wonder sometimes is "How does Liversedge get away with it?"

He's a violent criminal, a kidnapper, a blackmailer, he callously uses Belinda with no thought for her welfare and..."
This really resonates with me too Jenny. I too get off the grass when told and get FURIOUS with queue jumpers, and will point out the existence of the line instantly, to anyone!

Liversedge was a fun character for me nonetheless but I liked it also when Gideon gave him a bit of comeuppance. I've always thought Gideon would have been a nice match for the Grand Sophy ( a bit short of money of course) Or the rather insufferable Serena Carlow.

[Barbara]

Jenny wrote: "I think Lord & Lady Lionel will move out when Harriet is installed as Duchess and mistress of the house. There is almost certainly a Dower House available for them that they will have been expectin..."

I like this scenario, though I think it will take all Gilly's quiet persuasion to get Lord L to a actually go. Harriet, howoever will be excellent at making this happen in the most affectionate and careful way possible, I'm sure.

[Elza]

Favorite line of the whole book: "When not in jail he does." Love, love, love it!

The fact that when Gilly is in trouble and needs help, he instinctively turns to Harriet, tells me that he values her more than he knew. He is clueless to the fact that he seems to be asking a respectable young woman -- even worse, his fiancee -- to shelter his mistress (similar to Sprig Muslin), he just knows that he can trust Harriet's kindness. And that is a trait that she and Gilly share.

The least interesting part of the book for me was Liversedge's plotting, although I agree with Margaret's comparison of him with The Old Gentleman from The Masqueraders. A small dose of either of them goes a long way with me, and I had to skim through the pages and pages of low-life dialogue and Regency-era slang. Also, Tom's escapades and his father's blustering were a little too much to take at great length.

[Jacquie]

But the characters that Emr doesn't like are what puts this book above the run of the mill romantic novels!
Gilly's adventures wouldn't be half as challenging without them.

[Elza]

Jacquie wrote: "But the characters that Emr doesn't like are what puts this book above the run of the mill romantic novels!
Gilly's adventures wouldn't be half as challenging without them."

Oh, I don't deny their importance -- or their comedic value -- I just think they could have been edited a wee bit. I find Gilly, or Lionel, or Gideon *with* Liversedge more entertaining than Liversedge alone.

[Margaret]

IOW it's the way other characters react to him that amuses you. That makes sense to me...

[Abigail]

It’s clever the way Heyer directs readers toward what they are supposed to think about a character by the way other characters react to him (or her). I noticed that toward the end, I got so used to Liversedge that his preposterous remarks no longer got my attention—but Lord Lionel’s scandalized reactions reminded me of just how outrageous he is!

[Jackie]

Abigail wrote: "It’s clever the way Heyer directs readers toward what they are supposed to think about a character by the way other characters react to him (or her). I noticed that toward the end, I got so used to..."

that's a really good point!

[Elza]

Margaret wrote: "IOW it's the way other characters react to him that amuses you. That makes sense to me..."

Exactly!

[HJ]

Jenny wrote: "I think Lord & Lady Lionel will move out when Harriet is installed as Duchess and mistress of the house. There is almost certainly a Dower House available for them that they will have been expectin..."

I think Lord Lionel has his own estate, and once Gilly comes of age and marries Harriet I think he'll move there with no delay. It may take Gilly a bit longer to get his agent to listen to him.

[QNPoohBear]

I appreciate how GH turned convention on it's head with this one. We have the hero who is not strapping, athletic, rakish, or fortune hunting; a heroine who is intelligent but not super beautiful; a loving family; a charming villain and a ditzy blond bombshell who is NOT the love interest.

I really like Gilly's character development in the story. He has more depths than he realizes. I was impressed with the way he first defeated Liversedge and then how he got out of the cellar prison. He comes too appreciate Harriet because she's a foil for Belinda. If you just spent a week chasing after Belinda, you would come to love Harriet too. I liked how Harriet rose to the occasion and never doubted Gilly. She was kind and thoughtful with Belinda.

I found Liversedge absolutely charming. I think it's his glib tongue that allows him to get away with everything. I love his dialogue and it made me smile the whole time. I like the way he talks. Gilly forgives him because he was the means by which Gilly was able to have his adventure.

I absolutely disliked Harriet's brother. It's bad form to steal someone else's mistress; it's bad form to seduce a young lady in your own family's household and it's just all around bad to seduce a young lady, especially an innocent such as Belinda. He was the real villain of the story. I hated how he and everyone else except Harriet, refused to believe the truth. They all assumed Belinda was Gilly's mistress, but if that was so, why bring her to Harriet in the first place?

I think Gilly and Harriet will be happy together in their own quiet way. I think Lord Lionel will constantly want to check up on Gilly and make sure things are being done properly and Lady Lionel will cluck and mother him at first but gradually allow Harriet to take over that role. It will take some time to convince the old family retainers that he's an adult and can take care of himself. I suggest they stay in Paris for a long time!

[Elza]

I've always thought the title of this book was interesting. "The Foundling" -- Belinda is obviously the first character that comes to mind, since she is explicitly described as such and talks about what it means. But, even though she is the catalyst for all the action, she's still a second-tier character. The more I thought about it as I read this book again, I saw that Gilly is also a type of foundling -- left without parents at a very early age, and brought up in a way that gave him no real experience of normal family life. He -- like Belinda -- blames much of his dissatisfaction on his family (or lack thereof), but he takes the initiative to do something about it. In the process he discovers both that he can be his own man and stand on his own two feet, and that he does appreciate all the things that his extended family (including servants) do for him.

[Jenny]

Good point. In fact, Gilly 'finds' himself, doesn't he?

[Elza]

Jenny wrote: "Good point. In fact, Gilly 'finds' himself, doesn't he?"

He does indeed.

[Karlyne]

I'd never thought of it that way, Emr, but I think you're absolutely right!

[Jackie]

yes, that was excellent Emr!

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

You should put that all down in a review, Emr!

Also, because Tom is a child & Belinda is childlike, Gilly has to be the adult & take responsibility for them.

[Carolien]

This was a reread for me, but since I probably last read it 25 years ago, I couldn't remember much about it. Definitely one of her best. I liked Gilly and Harriet acquired much more personality as the book progressed and she was able to make her own decisions. I really liked Gideon as well and Gilly's retinue contributed many smiles.