The Evolution of Science Fiction discussion
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Dangerous Visions
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January 2020 Group Read 2of2: "Dangerous Visions"
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Mod
I love Love LOVE him, but in small Small SMALL doses.
Dangerous Visions is 55 years old. In general, does it hold up well? I personally think it does hold up well, not every story, but as an overall collection.
Papaphilly wrote: "Dangerous Visions is 55 years old. In general, does it hold up well? I personally think it does hold up well, not every story, but as an overall collection."I guess yes, even if I doubt that now there would be similar anthology published.
Mod
But there are still "dangerous" stories. They are just dangerous in different ways.
An example (which you posted in the Hugo/Nebula group):
http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/fall_...
Stories criticizing Islam, or Hong-Kong protests, or various other governments might be too dangerous to publish in mainstream publications, and would need someone bold to make a collection.
Yes, I had the scandal with Fall's story in mind when I said a new anthology would be hard to publish
Ed wrote: "There wouldn't be another collection quite the same. The SF publishing world is much larger now, so just about any type of SF can get published somewhere.But there are still "dangerous" stories. ..."
The very fact that you mention it is too dangerous is the very reason they need to be published. All you can ask of a story is that it is well written. I read the Clarke article and while I certainly understand the authors concern, I point out the censors won the day. It will only encourage them to more violence.
Everyone will be offended by something that wants it removed and some of them will resort to violence. It is when you give into the offended violent crowds that is becomes really dangerous. The idea of these stories is to explore the human condition in all of its facets. Not all of them are going to be loved by everyone and many will be loved by no one, but a very few.
The whole idea behind Dangerous Visions was the stories were just that. Most seem mild by today's standards, but they were not then.
Any group can be offended by any written piece critical of them and lose their mind and try and suppress it. That is book burning by definition and yet when you mention this, that is the last thing they will ever admit to doing.
Papaphilly wrote: "I point out the censors won the day. It will only encourage them to more violence."It is maybe interesting to contrast with the fact that according to wiki (I know, not the best of sources) Mein Kampf is sold 15000 copies per year in the USA, but critics decided to concentrate on a small story, not in the mainstream media
Jim wrote: "Just re-read "Gonna Roll the Bones" by Fritz Leiber. this is my favorite short story by him and i have read it at least 3 times over the last 50 years. It was still very good this time although it ..."I think, along with quite a few other stories I read so far, that it has dated too much for me. The danger has fainted, which leaves sometimes entertaining stories but for me not that impressive as I guess they were in their times.
I finished reading "The Doll House" and nothing much new there. The idea of a supernatural source providing cleverly worded predictions that often backfired wasn't anything new in 1967. I also read "Sex and/or Mr. Morrison" and enjoyed the rhythmic flow of the writing but I never got beyond a superficial understanding of the story. In this case it probably points out a flaw in my ability to conceptually grasp the deeper meaning in this style of subtle prose that dances around the inner meaning instead of directly stating it. For me there was only a hazy feeling about the "description" of the two characters and and even less into the mind of the"female" protagonist.
Then I read and enjoyed very much the story "Shall the Dust Praise Thee?" I like religious tropes in SF stories and I think that is the best place to take a outside view of religion. I was surprise by the statement by Knight in the afterword that his agent "returned it with loathing and told me I might possibly sell it to the Atheist Journal in Moscow, but nowhere else". Knight did say that it occurred "some years ago" which would mean some years before 1967. I was born in 1947 and wasn't a particularly religious person in the early '60's but I wasn't aware of such a strong taboo concerning a story taking a jab at religion. Of course today it is almost too mild a jab but I still think the intent is still accurate. Asimov wrote the religiously based story "The Last Question" in 1956 and I'm not aware of any backlash against it. There was also "For I Am a Jealous People" by Lester del Rey in 1954. I believe that Moorcock's novel "Behold the Man" was novelized in "New Worlds" in 1966 , a year before this collection.
I agree about "Sex and/or Mr. Morrison". I guess as a reader you have to add your own part of the story, a very big part of it, and you can go different ways with that.
Leo wrote: "Jim wrote: "Still to come is one of my favorite short stories "If All Men Were Brothers, Would You Let One Marry Your Sister?" by Theodore Sturgeon. I'd be interested in how people see it now when ..."I finished "If All Men Were Brothers, Would You Let One Marry Your Sister?". I am normally a big Sturgeon fan but didn't enjoy this one that much but I do think it is still almost as big a taboo in SF today as it was in 1967. I found Charli Bux a little annoying and Vorhidin's justification for the story's "taboo" much to long and not completely convincing. I'm surprised that I haven't read this before as I have started reading Sturgeon chronologically since I retired especially the "complete Stories" collections. I just checked and this story is in Vol XIII ans I haven't got that far yet. I originally became a big fan with his awesome novel "More Than Human".
The edited [by my memory] version is better than the original. I like the idea that it is such a taboo & yet there isn't (at least in the story) a rational reason behind it. I found the reactions to it especially pleasing as an obnoxious teenager. No one would even consider or discuss the merits of the idea.
I also finished the Sturgeon's story and it was fine, but I'm spoiled by reading RAH. On a purely factual side it is incorrect that incest is only a human construct, but I see that if one sets 'what if' it is no and adds Freudian psychoanalysis (largely assumed wrong now) that it is cool to think that illnesses are psychosomatic and if only we could f*k our family then we'd be ok...Researchers found out that kids growing together in kibbutz (not relatives!) rarely marry between the group. It seems that the subliminal signals like aroma of the commonly used soap used during their childhood somehow dampens their "within" group feelings
I have read 2 thirds of the stories and I think I see two trends. The first is to include stories that address topics not usually published in Sf such as religion and especially sex - explicit, erotic, homosexual and incest. The second is to write in a more avant-garde style than you usually see in SF. And occasionally a story that does both. I think the collection has served it's purpose in opening up these topics and writing styles to the genre going forward. But this collection just reinforces my earlier feeling that I'm not a fan of New Wave SF. I was 20 when this anthology came out but didn't read it until now. So far I have only recognized one story that I had read previously which would imply that I wasn't drawn to collections of New Wave stories over the past 53 years. I will finish the stories as part of my SF "education" because, regardless of my opinion, this was a very important book in 1967.
Jim wrote: "I will finish the stories as part of my SF "education" because, regardless of my opinion, this was a very important book in 1967.."The same here
Jim wrote: "I have read 2 thirds of the stories and I think I see two trends. The first is to include stories that address topics not usually published in Sf such as religion and especially sex - explicit, ero..."I think with the collection as in all of the golden age material, you have to take a grain of salt. If it was still cutting edge 55 years later, that would be very sad. Some of the material is still top notch and could hold up well. Some of it not so much. I think it might have to taken with context of the times. I look at it this way, old science fiction movies do not have great FX affects and look cheesy compared to today, but that does not make them any less enjoyable.
I read 4 more stories:"What Happened to Auguste Clarot?" - I didn't understand why Ellison clled it the "most dangerous thing since Typhoid Mary and that's probably because i didn't understand what the story was about.
"Ersatz" - I was in the army and spent 19 months on Okinawa in 1967-68. This story had me thinking back about my own sexual encounters with "woman" plying the world's oldest profession!!!
"Go, Go, Go, Said the Bird" - The slightly out of the ordinary writing style of this story was appealing but the message was a little harrowing.
"The Happy Breed" - I had tried reading Sladek a short while ago but his writing style doesn't quite line up with my reading style. But unlike many of the authors in this anthology he seems to have carved out a good career over the last 50+ years writing SF.
Papaphilly wrote: "Jim wrote: "I have read 2 thirds of the stories and I think I see two trends. The first is to include stories that address topics not usually published in Sf such as religion and especially sex - e..."I agree with taking the stories in the context of when they were written. The point I was trying to make is that me reading these stories today reinforces my personal viewpoint towards New Wave SF. Even though I didn't read this particular book until now I had attempted to read other SF that was considered New Wave over the years and I never enjoyed it much, Today SF has expanded so much that even the use of the term New Wave is dated since those topics and writing styles occur naturally in much of recent SF. I am just reflecting on my own personal taste in SF, which is "classic" while at the same time recognizing the importance of this anthology in broadening the scope of what could be written about and what writing style you could use to write it.
Mod
"What Happened to Auguste Clarot?" - I didn't understand why Ellison clled it the "most dangerous thing since Typhoid Mary ..."
Read his
Ed wrote: "Jim wrote: "I read 4 more stories:"What Happened to Auguste Clarot?" - I didn't understand why Ellison clled it the "most dangerous thing since Typhoid Mary ..."
Read his rejection acceptance le..."
Now that is funny.
Papaphilly wrote: "Ed wrote: "Jim wrote: "I read 4 more stories:"What Happened to Auguste Clarot?" - I didn't understand why Ellison clled it the "most dangerous thing since Typhoid Mary ..."
Read his rejection ac..."
I agree that the letter is better than the story which still doesn't make sense to me. It seems to be trying to find some humor in a mixture a vague detective story and SF cliches. Part of the problem may be that I have never read anything by H. L. Mencken to understand the references.
Mod
BTW, Larry Eisenberg is more known to some as the guy who published many limericks in the NY Times comments section.
I read 2 more stories. "Encounter with a Hick" - I couldn't get into this one even with the interesting idea relating to religion and "creation".
"From the Government Printing Office" - I had read and enjoyed a collection of Neville's short stories many years ago but all I remember is that they were "nice" stories. This story has more depth but I'm not sure if it qualifies as a "dangerous vision" even in 1967.
Papaphilly wrote: "Ed wrote: "Jim wrote: "I read 4 more stories:"What Happened to Auguste Clarot?" - I didn't understand why Ellison clled it the "most dangerous thing since Typhoid Mary ..."
Read his rejection ac..."
Too funny!
I finished the book, allthough I did not finish all of the stories. Mostly because I had difficulty with the prose / writing style. The one I liked best was Faith of Our Fathers by Philip K. Dick. A lot of the stories I found not that impressive. But still happy to have read this classic collection.
Mod
I've looked a bit, but not yet found, reviews of this book from the years soon after it was published. If anyone finds some, please let me know. Some individual stories were nominated for awards, but what was the reception of the book as a whole?
Ed wrote: "Another thought on what "Dangerous" means here. Publishers want to make money, so they mostly publish things that are like things that have made money in the past. These stories often go against co..."I can't seem to find any reviews from when it was originally printed. Science Fiction: A Critical Guide by Patrick Parrinder says that it sold 60,000 hardback copies before going out of print which I believe was pretty good for SF in the mid/late 60's.
Nick wrote: "This collection introduced me to R.A. LAfferty and Samuel Delaney who became favorites in the late 70's, early 80's.The next collection, Again, Dangerous Visions, contained the Laff..."
I am not a big fan of Lafferty's style but "Land of the Great horses" was OK. I liked the bulk of the novel concerning the Romanies but wasn't quite able to accept the extrapolation to future Angelenos. But I'm not sure how it fits into the "dangerous" category even in 1967. It's a new and interesting plot idea but not any big leap from what other others were getting published before 1967. As Lafferty went on developing his original use of language, metaphor, and narrative structure he left me, a classic SF traditionalist, behind.
I finished "The Recognition" and found it far too subtle for a "lazy" reader like me! I thought the afterword would help clear things up but Ballard didn't seem to know much more about the story from writing it than I did from reading it. At the end of the afterword he says: "The most important characters, whose motives are a key to the story, are the young woman and her dwarf. Why do they take this dismal circus on it's endless tour." The problem is that I still have no idea why although I did like his prose style.Just after I wrote the above I decided to look into Ballard a little further and I downloaded a copy of his 1962 collection "Billennium". Maybe it will help me understand his writing.
I finished two more stories:"Judas" - I don't see this so-so story about religion and machine worship would have been a dangerous vision even in 1967. I'm not a big Brunner fan but I did come across some interesting trivia. His first novel, "Galactic Storm", written as a teenager in 1951 had global warming as one of the sub plots although I believe it was being produced by Venusians.
"Test to Destruction" - This story felt very dated and seemed a roundabout way to come to the conclusion that "power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Mod
After reading Dangerous Visions, is anyone tempted to read Again, Dangerous Visions which followed five years later?
Papaphilly wrote: "After reading Dangerous Visions, is anyone tempted to read Again, Dangerous Visions which followed five years later?"Not me. The stories which led to the New Wave era of SF weren't the style I usually read and enjoy. While I recognized many of the authors in the first anthology I didn't recognize many in the second. This would imply that my personal taste led to read other stuff back then (I was born in 1947). In the late 60's and early 70's, due to budgetary concerns, I was reading used and occasionally new paperbacks and SF magazines. I didn't see many reviews and relied on reading the description on the back covers to make my decision. I remember reading and often not finishing books that would probably have been considered New Wave. It was more the move towards an avant-garde, stylistic literary writing that I didn't like and not the use of formerly taboo ideas.
Ironically I felt that Ellison's original anthology concentrated more on presenting formerly taboo subjects than it did on more "literary" writing but I found his approach to be heavy handed and not resulting in, for me, enjoyable stories. The actual move towards more "literary" writing styles and less emphasis on hard science had already begun a couple of years earlier. Michael Moorcock took over New Worlds magazine in 1964 and changed over to New Wave style stories with Brian Aldiss, J. G. Ballard and John Brunner. Philip K. Dick while always unique had already been writing stories and novels that would be considered part of the New Wave. Ellison himself had already been adding to the new style with his own stories.
I really enjoyed the book. I certainly understand it is not for everyone. This is one of those books that need to be read with the background context. I loved the concept about the idea of dangerous, for the times. I was originally surprised how many names I knew, but how many I did not know either. Personally, I think the new wave was needed, but it also can be off putting. As in all stylistic writings, I do not love all of the stories. I can appreciate them for what they are being well written, but not necessarily for me.
Papaphilly wrote: "I really enjoyed the book."I also liked it (ok, two stories left but I doubt they'll change my attitude) but not loved it. Several stories were really good, but far from all
Papaphilly wrote: "I really enjoyed the book. I certainly understand it is not for everyone. This is one of those books that need to be read with the background context. I loved the concept about the idea of dangerou..."I definitely agree with you comment about being aware of the context of the times and the genre in 1967. I was 20 in 1967 and I'm trying to remember what I was reading then. I had just weaned myself off Heinlein and Andre Norton YA novels and looking for more to read. I found that I didn't like Heinlein's adult novels as much as the YA stuff so I was still looking.
I remember being exposed to Vonnegut when someone gave me "Sirens of Titan". I read it because it was SF but then I started reading more Vonnegut and liking his strange take on the genre.
I remember reading PDK and probably started with "The Man in the High Castle" which I'm sure was given to me by a friend who recognized good SF writing before I usually did.
I think I remember breaking down and paying for a subscription to a SF magazine in the early 60's and it was probably "Galaxy" which seemed to be the kind of stuff that interested me. I'm sure I picked up a lot of copies of the science fiction magazines that were available at the time at second hand outlets. I think I moved away from the SF magazines in the late 60's because I wasn't finding as many stories I liked as I had in the early 60's.
I believe I also came across Asimov's Foundation novels in my usual manner, friends, the public library or second hand stores. I grew up in Philly and while I found a lot of YA SF novels on the public library shelves in the late 50's and early 60's I didn't see that much adult SF in the late 60's and early 70's.
I finally returned to Heinlein when I read the widely popular "Stranger in a Strange Land" but I soon lost interest in his later books. I also remember being given Huxley's "Brave New World" and "Island" to read by one of my more literary friends. I did enjoy reading both of them.
My two main authors continued to be Vonnegut and PDK as I moved through the 70's. I would have continued reading Asimov but he had pretty much stopped writing SF in this period. I also enjoyed SF anthologies of the stories from the "golden age".
In the 70's I also discovered Philip Jose Farmer through the Riverworld series that was popular among people I knew. This quickly turned into a love/hate relationship when I read some of his stuff outside of Riverworld. Later I came across the work of Clifford Simak and Theodore Sturgeon, enjoyed it very much and started looking around for more of their stuff.
During this time I occasionally came across stories or novels that would be considered New Wave but didn't like them that much and stayed away from other stuff by those authors.
Mod
Just one year later NBC was very afraid of releasing the Star Trek episode where Kirk kisses Uhuru. (In the end, it didn't generate much anger, but not many people were watching the show anyway.)
Ed wrote: "I started today. I went first to "The Day After the Day the Martians Came", mostly because it is short. It is very tame today, but in 1967 it would be dangerous to publish because it is an explicit...""2001: A Space Odyssey" is generally considered to be the first "new wave" SF movie because of it's symbolism and metaphysical ending it was slammed for those same reasons in a review by Lester del Rey who described it as "described it as "the first of the New Wave-Thing movies, with the usual empty symbolism".
From what I can see from Pohl's he didn't seem to be writing much Sf during the middle 1960's. this was probably due to the fact that being editor of Galaxy was taking most of his time although he did produce several anthologies of Galaxy short stories in this period. The two short stories he wrote in 1966 were published in Rogue and Playboy. I guess they paid him more than he could have paid himself!
Ed wrote: "I can't find any digital versions of this, and my library doesn't have a physical copy. I don't want to buy another copy, so I won't be joining. But, I did read it, and remember some of the stories..."I just read "Carcinoma Angels" and didn't really enjoy it. I guess the dangerous vision was mentioning cancer. I remember back then that people generally didn't use the "C" word in polite conversation. I recognize the name Norman Spinrad but don't actually remember reading any of his work until now.
Mod
Sex and/or Mr. Morrison - I didn't get very interested in the idea that Mr.Morrison might be hiding some unusual situation beneath his clothes. But I enjoyed the telling of the story. Bothered by the fat-shaming, though.
Shall the Dust Praise Thee - like it. Asks a very good, but somewhat trite, question about Jehovah.
What Happened to Auguste Clarot - Ridiculous fun genre mash-up.
From the Government Printing Office - I can relate to that kid. I wonder if it was inspired by the "Dr. Spock" baby training books.
Land of the Great Horses - OK. Cute.
My edition also includes an advertisement for Dangerous Visions Volume 3. That is the most futuristic thing of all, since that book has still not been printed.
Mod
Sounds like a reasonable guess. "Escapist" fiction avoided such heavy subjects.
I finished the book. The stories for the most part weren't the type of Sf stories I generally like. "Auto-da-Fé" seemed to come out of the car culture of the time which was pushing the limits on muscle cars and those whose egos evolved around them. "Aye, and Gomorrah" was an interesting story concerning the idea of humans who went into space needed to be made into sexless entities to avoid problems with space radiation, the sexual fetish resulting from it and the emotional stress created in the spacers and those attracted to them. The authors involved consisted of established authors who for the most part didn't change their style or topics as a result of this book, a few established authors who had been chomping at the bit to get stories that pushed the taboo envelope published and new authors who wanted less censorship to deal with as they developed their careers.
The question is how much this anthology did toward achieving it's goals. I couldn't find any reviews or opinions in the years shortly after it was published but there seems to be a lot of consensus more recently that the book did help to open up the genre to the spicier topics already used in mainstream fiction and to more diverse and "literary" writing styles.
But I had cut my teeth on classic science fiction and I guess I was comfortable with that style. My own reading after 1967 consisted of authors like Larry Niven, Philip K. Dick, Kurt Vonnegut, Clifford Simak and Isaac Asimov.
Ed wrote: "Sex and/or Mr. Morrison - I didn't get very interested in the idea that Mr.Morrison might be hiding some unusual situation beneath his clothes. But I enjoyed the telling of the story. Bothered by the fat-shaming, though. t..."I do not see it as fat shaming. This is more about obsession and repressed sexual feelings.
I also finished the book and it was quite interesting. There are two main "dangers" - reinterpreting Abrahamian religions (sacrilege in the general sense) and taboos (sex, cannibalism), plus a group of hard to place stories.
Mod
Maybe "hard to place" is why they were dangerous. Too different from what readers expected to find in their favorite magazine. Different genre, different or experimental writing style, more difficult vocabulary, unlikable characters, etc.
I'm still jumping around randomly among the shorter stories. Always reading the story first, then the afterword, then the introduction. I don't want to be influenced by the introduction before reading the story.
Today:
The Happy Breed by John T. Sladek - Too much happiness and safety makes us sad and stupid. An unusual take on "machines take over" theme.
Encounter With A Hick by Jonathan Brand - A religious guy from Earth meets the daughter of Slartibartifast, i.e. (view spoiler). I loved this! Sadly the author only published 3 short stories, according to http://www.isfdb.org
Mod
I'm sure it varied by region. I grew up in the 1970s in the Bible belt. Some of these stories would have been very taboo there and then (or even now). I don't remember anyone offended by George Burns in "Oh, God", but my parents were very offended by things like "Life of Brian" and Dudley Moore's "Wholly Moses". I remember my pastor railing against the "Mary Tyler Moore" show, mainly because she was divorced. Our pastor once spent an entire sermon about the evils of Fannie Flagg. (That only made me want to read her work!)
(I had no idea what the preacher was even talking about then, but it was probably the book "Daisy Fay and the Miracle Man" in which one character is both a con man and a preacher, selling autographed photos from the Last Supper.)
Ed wrote: "Our pastor once spent an entire sermon about the evils of Fannie Flagg. (That only made me want to read her work!)..."That is why censorship ultimately fails. The censors create the forbidden fruit and then temp everyone who wonder whats is in the book.
Papaphilly wrote: "After reading Dangerous Visions, is anyone tempted to read Again, Dangerous Visions which followed five years later?"I was reading an old Judith Merril collection of short stories and did a little investigation of the author. It seems that Merril in the early 60's was a strong advocate of widening the scope of SF both in topic and the use more literary writing styles. There is a story that claims: "One anthology project Merril began in the early 1960s under contract to Lion Books in Chicago was aborted, but inspired her publisher's editor Harlan Ellison to go forward with his own version of the project, which yielded "Dangerous Visions". Merril, who felt that "New Wave" had started in England and was dominated by English writers she edited the 1968 anthology "England Swings SF", whose stories she collected while living in England for a year. This anthology may be a good companion to Ellison's anthology that slanted more towards American writers although it did include many of the major English "New Wave" writers..
The Evolution of Science Fiction
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Fannie Flagg (other topics)Benjamin Spock (other topics)
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I've read it but wasn't very impressed. As I understand it is stylized for American tales, but I've read them once, in translation and long ago (not even read, but was read to, meaning it was before I started reading, so it was loooong ago).