The Test by Sylvain Neuvel

[Oleksandr]

Here we discuss the novella. As novellas are quite short, there is no separate "first impressions" thread, so at the beginning some usage of spoiler tags is preferred

[Oleksandr]

I plan to start is around Dec 20th and post what I think

[Kateblue]

I started this before and DNF, (library expiration) so I will start again

[Gabi]

It has a decent price, so I'm in.

[Kalin]

I just put it on hold, but -- it's not high on my list of likely to be nominated. Neuvel has not gotten much attention from the awards before: http://www.sfadb.com/Sylvain_Neuvel

[Oleksandr]

Kalin wrote: "I just put it on hold, but -- it's not high on my list of likely to be nominated. "

Maybe he'll get Nebula nomination. I read favorable reviews of his Sleeping Giants

[Antti]

I should get this from library in a day or two, so I'm in.

[Cordelia]

I'm in. I managed to get an ebook from the library.

[Antti]

That was a quick listen - only two hours!

It was good enough: I enjoyed the story.

(view spoiler)[ The plot twists were rather predictable, though: the moment the terrorists entered I predicted they are part of the test. I've probably read too many psychology books and learned that in all the classic psychological experiments the participants were told one thing, but the actual test was something completely different.

I would've liked if the story had followed the operators a bit more. At some point I started to mistakenly suspect that the story will have another twist: that the whole simulation is actually made up and the young operator is actually the subject of the experiment, Milgram-style.

While that would've been a twist too far, I hoped the operators' willingness to put their subjects through a horrible experience was explored more deeply, but alas, that was not to be. (hide spoiler)]

[Oleksandr]

I finished it and liked very much... I have to digest it but so far maybe even 5 stars

(view spoiler)[a test within a test was predictable but what must have sold me is that behavioral economics loves these tests, like you drive a train with no stops and there are two men on main line and one on the turn, and you can let train go or turn. Many prefer the first option.

I also expected that testers are tested and to some extent the young one was, but not implicitly. (hide spoiler)]

[Cordelia]

I am about 75% of the way through.

[Cordelia]

Finished. Gave it 4 stars. But I am going to have to think about it.

[Oleksandr]

Cordelia wrote: "Finished. Gave it 4 stars. But I am going to have to think about it."

I like works of art that make me think

[Antti]

Oleksandr wrote: "Cordelia wrote: "Finished. Gave it 4 stars. But I am going to have to think about it."

I like works of art that make me think"

Problem is, the concept of this book has pretty gaping holes, and the more you think about it, the more broken it becomes.

(view spoiler)[ In these internet times, it'd take maybe a week before the details of the test were leaked online, so the whole idea of using test-within-a-test is doomed to fail. No NDA is strong enough to keep a secret of this magnitude. It's just not conceivable that someone wouldn't tell their cousin who's preparing for the test the truth, then they'll tell someone else &c.

And it gets even worse with those who fail the test. If you fail it, you'll get immediately deported - with brain damage. This is a pretty high-stakes test, to put it mildly! Idir is preternaturally calm at the beginning of the test considering what'll happen if he fails. (hide spoiler)]

[Oleksandr]

Antti, agreed! Moreover, (view spoiler)[almost all tested have to go on medications (which shows it is not the USA but universal medical coverage of citizens) and possibly, even likely, becoming less productive members of the society. And while 'hidden tests' of politeness at the start are an interesting point, how often ant citizen faces life and death decisions, so it is the main part of the test?

as for "test contents would be made public within a week" I take an easy way out: under the hypnosis or what is the state of the tested, you are told to forget about it. As for deported, they became a third world problem, testers claim they were unstable from the start (hide spoiler)]

[Antti]

Oleksandr:(view spoiler)[ Your "easy way out" is contradicted by the text itself: The younger operator suggests after the disastrous K3 that they just wipe Idir's memory and start again, but the older operator says it's not that simple: memory-wiping causes massive loss of other memories and skills: that's why it's only done on the deportees. The ones who passed the test remember everything, but are medicated to cope with the PTSD caused by the test.
(hide spoiler)]

[Oleksandr]

Antti (view spoiler)[You've misunderstood me, I meant a subject forgets during the test about the true nature of the test. S/he remembers the test after that (hide spoiler)]

[Antti]

Oleksandr: Oh, right. That's actually pretty good idea: Neuvel should've added something like that to the story.

[Gabi]

This was a pretty uncomfortable read. It's hard for me to stomach people who behave so inhumanly and still think they are in the right. A very bleak novella. I have think about the rating (that is if I should leave out my personal feelings or not)

[Oleksandr]

Gabi wrote: "This was a pretty uncomfortable read. It's hard for me to stomach people who behave so inhumanly and still think they are in the right. "

Often the fact that what is written causes feelings, even such as a disgust sometimes means a mastery with words (not always). I agree that first of all testers were too inhuman not to notice the harm they cause. However, for me was important that I felt in the subject's shoes so to speak, I thought what would I do in his place (I have to admit that I ain't sure I'd try to help a recently shot person right away, seeing that it can be seen as an insubordination and getting another bullet)

[Gabi]

What struck me most is (view spoiler)[ how the author shows that the one who has to decide about the moral integrity of the immigrants to allow them citizenship doesn't show those requirements himself. He has removed himself from the sense of the test and only sees the technicality of it. Very disturbing and very realistic. (hide spoiler)]

[Oleksandr]

Gabi: True words!

[Antti]

(view spoiler)[I agree, the novella shows perfectly the "banality of evil".

The younger operator was such a great character: he probably thinks that he is a "good guy", since he tried to help Idir pass the test, but he chose the most inhumane way to do that - and he didn't even understand he could be causing harm! (hide spoiler)]

[Cordelia]

I found this to be a pretty strange story. Somehow it just didn't connect with me. Thought it was a strange way to determine citizenship. And could not identify with it as SF. It seemed to me to be something that could happen in our real world.

However I will stick with the 4 stars. It was well written, well plotted and well paced. I notice that Kirkus gave it a Star rating.

[Oleksandr]

Cordelia wrote: "it was a strange way to determine citizenship. .."

However the tests are widely used for getting a citizenship or other special status, so it is a more or less logical expansion of the idea

[Antti]

Cordelia: I agree that this story felt less SF and more "speculative fiction".

[Oleksandr]

Antti wrote: "Cordelia: I agree that this story felt less SF and more "speculative fiction"."

While true, one may argue that virtual reality indistinguishable from our reality is a common SF trope. As well as dystopias

[Antti]

Oleksandr: The reason this doesn't feel like SF but rather as "speculative fiction" is (view spoiler)[ that the rather large technological leaps don't seem to have impacted society at all, and instead they are just treated as plot devices.

They have Turing test passing AI - but still they have accountants. You'd expect that accountant would be one of those professions that disappear due to robotization long before we get AI that good. Perhaps architects, as well.

They have VR that is indistinguishable from reality - but Idir never suspects he's in a simulation. You'd think that if they have VR that good, it would be ubiquitous: there'd be VR games, movies, conferences etc. Sure, you can say that the testees are hypnotized or whatever, but that is a fan theory, not included in the text itself. (hide spoiler)]

[Cordelia]

I agree. It really felt like an every day story from NOW. And without those SF tropes it was not really anything special.

[Kateblue]

I quit reading it and returned it to the library some time ago because meh. I don't really remember, I just wasn't interested. But when Cordelia said "It really felt like an every day story from NOW." Yes, that sounds right.

I do have it out from the library again, but with all your exciting comments, I am not encouraged to read it.

[Oleksandr]

As for happening now (view spoiler)[Just like with forcing to forget the true nature of the test while under it, we can assume that it simulate their recent past, say a decade ago. Also maybe
1. immersion works only under not-safe drugs and under constant monitoring. Otherwise it is like the current day VR

2. it takes a supercomputer to emulate so prohibitively costly (hide spoiler)]

[Rebecca]

I suspect that he was meant to fail. I was reminded of the "literacy" tests given in the US South to keep people of color from voting. I also suspected that getting those stupid questions on the written test correct would count against someone trying to go for citizenship

[Kateblue]

I did read it a couple of weeks ago. Here's my review. It was OK. Dismal, but OK. I don't like dismal. https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

[Oleksandr]

Rebecca wrote: "I suspect that he was meant to fail. "

Probably, as a mean to lower the number of migrants getting citizenship the bar is set higher than for ones, who are already citizens, so the large faction fails, but another product is 'finding diamonds' best migrants have to offer. So not only one purpose