"Dreamsnake" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[Gabi]

ETA: as of August 07 2020 this thread is the official group discussion for our BotM. So no need for spoiler tags anymore!

Welcome to the "Dreamsnake" Buddy Read.

Let's see if the triple crown award winner (Hugo, Nebula and Locus) lives up to the accolades.

We will start on November 25th, hopefully with a great group of enthusiastic reading buddies.

As always: please state chapter/percentage and put everything that goes deeper than general impressions in spoiler tags. So everybody knows which tags to click on without being spoiled.

Looking forward to see you here.

Some content warnings thanks to Allison: (view spoiler)[ animal cruelty, snakes (obvs), rape, pedophilia, child abuse, medical procedures, mental illness, a sort-of-questionably consensual sex scene, torture, able-ism, drug addiction, death of a loved one. (hide spoiler)]

[Jemppu]

Thank you, Gabi. Looking forward to this!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Excited to hear what people think!!

[Cheryl]

I'm going to try to pick it up tomorrow.

[Ian]

I may not join in the discussion later, but I will probably look in from time to time (I've asked to follow by emails). I have heavy Buddy Read commitments already, and I no longer have a copy to reference.

I still distinctly remember reading the first part, as "Of Mist, and Grass, and Sand," (now a separate Audio Book!) in Analog in 1973, and wondering what the rest of that world was like. And falling on the complete book when I saw it in paperback in 1978 or 1979. And writing a letter in response to what I still think was an inept (and hostile) review in the Los Angeles Times (it was printed, but heavily cut).

[CBRetriever]

for those looking for a version you can read on Kindle, it's not available for US residents on amazon.com, but Book View Cafe has a legal version of it for sale. For non-US residents, check here to see if it's available for you:

https://www.amazon.com/Dreamsnake-Von...

[DivaDiane]

You can also pick up the eBook directly from Book View Cafe: https://bookviewcafe.com/bookstore/bo...
$4.99 for whatever format.

[CBRetriever]

that's what I said just before the Amazon link. Note: for those with OCD, the version I got from them a few years ago has a jagged right edge.

[Anthony]

Looking forward to this!

[Chris]

I started early. So far, so good.

[CBRetriever]

Be sure and stop after the first chapter and reflect on what you've just read. The first chapter is the short story that won a Nebula award called Of Mist, and Grass, and Sand. I consider it excellent on its own. I seemed dreamlike the first time I read it and it really made an emotional impact on me, much more than Dreamsnake did. If you rush right into chapter two you'll miss the experience

[Meredith]

I read this a few years ago and really enjoyed it. Interested to see other folks' thoughts on various aspects of the story.

[Oleksandr]

Meredith wrote: "I read this a few years ago and really enjoyed it. Interested to see other folks' thoughts on various aspects of the story."

Thanks for the info, I haven't known that. It is felt that the first chapter is different than the rest of the story

[Oleksandr]

Meredith wrote: "I read this a few years ago and really enjoyed it. Interested to see other folks' thoughts on various aspects of the story."

I'm 3/4 in and so far a very nice book, reminds me both of classic SF and at the same time has quite contemporary themes

[Dawn F]

I didn’t connect with the short story alone at all, in fact it took a while for the book to catch me, but once it did, I loved it, and its respectful treatment of difficult subject matters.

[Chris]

Chapter 1 was fine, but I didn't get any special vibes from it. I can't see how any short story can compete with any novel. At best, they are apples and oranges.

[Cheryl]

I will read the short story/ first chapter attentively first... no sooner than the 25th though! All you impatient ppl.... ;)

[CBRetriever]

that's only two day from now. I'm one who has read the book multiple times before and ran across the short story first. While reading the short story, I was impressed by the scenario the story portrayed, the other-worldliness of it and experienced all the emotions of the main character including (view spoiler)[ pity, hope, and the despair and the unknown future she was facing as she rode off (hide spoiler)]. The short story was first published back in 1974 and there really was nothing like it at the time.

[Ariana]

I started yesterday and felt drawn in right away. Really enjoying it, especially after my last few reads that started to drag in the middle and were a chore to finish.

[Lesley]

I started today and I very much agree with Ariana. I was hooked from the first chapter and the story only gets better from there. I really appreciate the author’s trust in the reader to not over-explain the world, but rather let the characters bring it to life.

[Dawn F]

Yep, that’s one of the things I admire about it too, the lack of exposition.

[John]

CBRetriever wrote: "I'm one who has read the book multiple times before and ran across the short story first. While reading the short story, I was impressed by the scenario the story port..."

Also read 2 times (still have the 70's paperback and can visualize the cover) and listened to it in 2008. One of my favorites and just shy of 5 stars. (view spoiler)[Still remember her travels and the punishment of thrown into a pit of snakes. (hide spoiler)]

[Gabi]

:D Are there folks left for the official start today?

Welcome, everybody, I'm delighted to see that there is already a good discussion going on.

I've read chapter 1: (view spoiler)[Of course I passionately hated the 'we are afraid so we kill the innocent' attitude of the tribe. Such events tear out my soul.
On the plus side I'm delighted how nice and easy the story goes. No fancy names, no complicated worldbuilding without explanation where the reader needs the first 100 pages just to understand what's going on. I like this. (hide spoiler)]

ETA

chapter 3: (view spoiler)[ This was a pretty intense chapter. I liked how Grass's murder became an issue here, how Jesse compared both of their mutilations. Also the building up of hope and the shattering of same was very effectively done.
And we learned that we are on a post-apocalyptic world with interstellar connections. (hide spoiler)]

[Jemppu]

Starting... now.

[Mareike]

I just glanced at my planner and realized that I'd been meaning to join for this one.
Luckily, it's available as an audiobook, so I can make it my alternate for the book I started eye-reading last night.

[Gabi]

Mareike, it's a short one. I started this morning and am already nearly half through.

[Chris]

Finished.

(view spoiler)[I thought it was a solid story well-executed. It did not feel ambitious, but it did exactly what it set out to do. The plot had good pacing. Snake was likable and competent without being perfect. The subplot with helping Melissa escape abuse felt more compelling than the main plot. (hide spoiler)]

[Lesley]

Gabi wrote: "chapter 3"

I totally agree with you! (view spoiler)[ This is where I got completely pulled into the story. I was impressed by how he author was able to convey so much emotion and make me care so much about the characters with very little background.

I really liked the spiraling structure of the world building that went from a very small window of a sick child to Snake’s connections with the wider world. (hide spoiler)]

[Gabi]

Chapter 7: (view spoiler)[ I could have really done without the child abuse. Other than that I'm thoroughly invested in the mystery around the attacker. So far I can't think of a reason behind the attacks and I'm curious to find out more. I also dearly loved the interaction between Snake and Melissa. (hide spoiler)]

[Cheryl]

I haven't started yet. When I do, I'll come back here after Chapter One, as suggested earlier. I'll almost assuredly be done before tomorrow at this time.

[Mareike]

Gabi wrote: "Mareike, it's a short one. I started this morning and am already nearly half through."

Yes! I noticed that it was shorter than the last few I listened to. I was tempted to start earlier today, but all the tasks I did at work needed my full concentration.

I'm very, very intrigued by the first chapter and can't wait to see where this goes.

[Cheryl]

I love the first chapter, echoing what Gabi says above. I'm eager to go on, and glad that I've been warned it's a bit of a shift.

Btw, it was rather familiar... I must have read it in an anthology some time ago.

[Gabi]

Cheryl wrote: "I love the first chapter, echoing what Gabi says above. I'm eager to go on, and glad that I've been warned it's a bit of a shift.
..."

That's a point I would love to hear folks' thoughts on. Was there a shift after the first chapter? And in which way?

[CBRetriever]

I didn't feel that there was much of a shift as the whole book seemed a series of vignettes while still being cohesive as far as moving towards an ending. I wasn't thrilled with the ending which felt a little bit too pat/contrived

[Gabi]

Chris wrote: "Finished.

[spoilers removed]"

I felt quite the same, Chris. (view spoiler)[I'm not sure If I go for 3 or 4 stars, have to think a bit about it. The novel started strong, I very much liked the casual take on sexuality, the snake medicine, the idea of the dreamsnakes and the plotline around Melissa. Yet it somehow ended in a rather common adventure story feeling for me. It was lacking some wow-elements. And I could have done without the Arevin subplot. This was rather needless. (hide spoiler)]

[Oleksandr]

Gabi wrote: "Chris wrote: "Finished."

(view spoiler)[I agree that the ending is rather flat, but it was more or less common for the times it was wrote, so I haven't lowered the rating for this. I liked bio-punk ideas from snake medicine to fertility regulation. Non-standard family units (btw most by threes, was it a hint to dreamsnakes?), female leaders and much more relaxed approach to consensual sex (I doubt that many modern SF books allow themselves some of it) (hide spoiler)]

[Gabi]

Oleksandr wrote: "Gabi wrote: "Chris wrote: "Finished."

[spoilers removed]"

I guess I will follow your rating, Oleksandr, cause of the same explanation.

ETA: regarding 3: (view spoiler)[ the ideal constellation in a partnership being 3 is something Sturgeon as well often took as topic in his short stories. It was the 50ies and not the 70ies, of course, but I guess there is some intrigue in this number. (hide spoiler)]

[Chris]

Tangential to the number 3:

(view spoiler)[One cat owner in a documentary said the perfect number of cats is three. When one dies, the other two can console each other. We did see something like that play out near the beginning of Dreamsnake. (hide spoiler)]

[HeyT]

Late to the party but I managed to forget where I placed my paperback copy so I had to go to another city's library for the one physical copy available in my area. I've been meaning to read it for a while but something has always come up (like misplacing the book).

[Cheryl]

Done. I've not a whole lot to say. (view spoiler)[The first half (barring the lovely first chapter) felt very earnestly YA... as if the author were telling her young female readers that they can grow up to be a wise brave independent healer like Snake if they're willing to undergo training and risk encounters with 'hostile native' type people.

The second half became, imo, more of a real story, and I began to actually become more engaged instead of aloof & analytical. I liked the way the different plots came together. And I certainly don't see it as a pat HEA; there's just too much more that's going to be happening to these Three 'friends.'

I did very much enjoy the world-building, such as the above mentioned bio-punk (unnecessarily hidden in spoiler tags as it's revealed in blurb and first chapter). (hide spoiler)]

[Gabi]

Cheryl, would you be so kind to put your final verdict in tags.
Anything beyond first impressions should be handled as spoiler.

Hi HeyT! Looking forward to your impression.

[Mareike]

I listened up to chapter 7 yesterday. I didn't feel much of a shift between the first and the following chapters, tbh.

I really like the no nonsense style of narration and find myself empathizing with Snake quite a lot.

Ch 6. (view spoiler)[I really liked how tender this chapter was and the glimpse it allowed us at the ways in which (hetero-)sexuality and contraception are handled. Many post-apocalyptic narratives depict societies that fall back on fairly patriarchal models of society and relationships (Yes, I'm looking at you A Canticle for Leibowitz) and it is refreshing to see an author imagine a world (or at least societies in a world) where contraception is something both partners take care of and consent is essential.
The twist that the method Gabriel was taught was outdated was also revelatory. In several ways. I can't help but read the fact that Gabriel was taught by a very old man as a stab by McIntyre at the real-life medical establishment. (hide spoiler)]

[Cheryl]

Yes, re patriarchy and establishment doctors. (I hope that's sufficiently vague not to be spoilery, because neither are actually in the book exactly.)

[Gabi]

That's perfect, Cheryl!

@Mareike, chapter 6: (view spoiler)[ I liked the idea of body control, too. And the comment about his teacher not being up to date made me laugh. It was such a relatable, down-to-earth moment. (hide spoiler)]

ETA: I didn't feel a shift either that's why I was eager to hear about it.

[Oleksandr]

re: the method Gabriel was taught - I initially even assumed that (view spoiler)[it has been done intentionally so his father will get a grandson and heir. However, it wasn't supported/elaborated further in the story (hide spoiler)]

[Cheryl]

re the 'shift' - I did sense it... in tone & craft & intended audience. The first chapter was more subtle & sophisticated, then it shifted into being more straightforward & accessible.

[CBRetriever]

Oleksandr wrote: "re: the method Gabriel was taught - I initially even assumed that [spoilers removed]"

Nope, I think the father (view spoiler)[ considered his son a freak/defective because he couldn't do what the other boys/young men could do (hide spoiler)]

[Mareike]

After listening to chapters 7 and 8 tonight, I was wondering if there should be content warnings at the top of the thread? There might always be people joining late or necroposting down the line.

[Cheryl]

Mareike wrote: "After listening to chapters 7 and 8 tonight, I was wondering if there should be content warnings at the top of the thread? There might always be people joining late or necroposting down the line."

This is the topic that I'm most sensitive to, and I did wince and take deep breaths, but I was not peeved that there were no content warnings and did not have put the book down.

(Just a data point. I think adding warnings up top is probably a good idea.)

[Mareike]

It was okay for me, too, butmight be best to give people a heads-up.

I finishes earlier and while I liked many things, especially the worldbuilding and how (most) people related to each other, I'm not sure about the ending. It's certainly hopeful and I don't really have suggestions for how it could have gone differently, but....it was a bit meh.