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The Tiger’s Daughter
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"The Tiger’s Daughter" by K. Arsenault Rivera (BR)
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I'm not joining, but I have to say it here as well how utterly happy I am for your big happy personal event, Anthony.
I saw an exhibition by Jimmy Nelson in August, with some beautiful photography from all over the world. One of my favorite pieces was this fierce Mongolian lady in a sassy pose, although it did look much better in the exhibition, backlighted in a dark room. It immediately made me think of this book! Well the cover/premise, I haven't read the book yet.
Mongolian Kazakhs / Full size photo
I'm definitely planning on joining, but I may have overestimated how fast I'd be with Green Mars and Unkindness of Ghosts, so I'll probably be a bit late. Congratulations on your personal news - what a delightful event to interfere with reading plans. Truly very happy for you.
I will be joining in too! I have 1300 words left to write for this essay, and then I'll be done with uni for the semester and ready to jump back into reading along with everyone else!Also, I believe your current life event is a pretty good excuse to slow your pace down a bit haha.
Anthony! You are not only excused, but obligated to be a day (or more) late. Congratulations; so happy for you! (How much of a surprise was it, really? Must be a relieve none the less, so take all the time you feel.)Reading? Hmm... I started this a bit last night, and am doubtful if I'll be joining in. But will at least be following the convo with interest ^^'
@Anna: such a pose, indeed!
I've already gotten a good start on it so definitely joining, and I have to agree with everyone else that your delay is entirely justified. 
@Anthony Congratulations! And maybe more plans coming soon 💕 I’ll join but it will be next weekend, aww.@Anna Wow, thank you for sharing with us.
Well, I've managed to assemble some thoughts so I guess I'll kick things off. This is one that really pulled me in from the start of the first chapter, and while there are a few things that would normally be turn-offs for me, (view spoiler) the prose and the relationships are captivating enough that I don't really care, and I'm really looking forward to how things develop.
Dropping by, to say congrats to Anthony!Wishing you both the very best for the future, lots of joy and happiness.
Thanks everyone! I’m finding it very hard to slow my brain down to take in the writing of anything for more than a couple minutes at time for the last couple of days. It’s been a heady and overwhelmingly positive 48 hours... hopefully I’ll be able to settle in and finish An Unkindness of Ghosts tonight or tomorrow. Thanks for your patience!
Take all the time you need to let the new reality sink in and revel in your happiness! The book and this thread aren't going anywhere.
Anthony wrote: "Thanks everyone! I’m finding it very hard to slow my brain down..."One can imagine! It's exhilarating to witness just a fraction of it afar. Please, don't feel any pressure to hurry for this; indeed, take all the time you need, enjoy the occasion and steady yourself. The BR and us can and will wait.
I actually read this book a while ago, but I may drop into the discussion as things get going. I did really enjoy the book and the two main characters \.
I just realized that this was last month's free Tor book, so I'll have to start it
CBRetriever wrote: "I just realized that this was last month's free Tor book, so I'll have to start it"Yup, that's where I got it too. I was hesitant at first, if I should join the BR, but since I have it, and it doesn't seem something I'd be necessarily compelled to pick up on my own, might as well read it now with this incentive ^^'
CBRetriever wrote: "I just realized that this was last month's free Tor book, so I'll have to start it"Yup, that's why I'm here, too. I'm glad because it's really hitting the spot for me.
Anthony wrote: "Thanks everyone! I’m finding it very hard to slow my brain down to take in the writing of anything for more than a couple minutes at time for the last couple of days. It’s been a heady and overwhel..."Take your time and congrats on the new journey:) And same here, I cannot read anything during Bwaycon(smile).
So far so good at 7% in. However, I'm having a bit of a problem with names and keeping them straight especially with with Shizuru and Shizuka.
CBRetriever wrote: "So far so good at 7% in. However, I'm having a bit of a problem with names and keeping them straight especially with with Shizuru and Shizuka."This is something, where it would be nice to know the 'original' written characters for the names. To see the 'correct' spellings (and thus know the meanings, which would help the remembering of them too, no doubt). I wonder, if the author had any specific writing for them in mind when coming up with the names.
I’m finally starting! I’ve heard there was some controversy around this book, in that its non-Asian author has been accused of appropriating Asian cultures and stereotyping said cultures. I’m curious to see whether this will ring true for me.
Yeah, been reading some of that as well, and the severity of the reactions seems rather striking.
Also, I must say, that for me it so far reads no different from the usual mixture of any historical/cultural influences from different eras/sources to create a fantasy world.Perhaps I don't have the right sensibility for it, but if it's about the author themself not being Asian, that's the problem with them mixing Asian influences, I must wonder about these critics' thoughts on works of Asian origin, which mix 'Western' cultures and historical details to create their own fantasies.
I'm also joining this buddy read - the premise sounds wonderful.And congratulations to your news, Anthony! So happy for you!
Anthony wrote: "I’m finally starting! I’ve heard there was some controversy around this book, in that its non-Asian author has been accused of appropriating Asian cultures and stereotyping said cultures. I’m curio..."you can read the reviews on this site for some fairly succinct discussions of that. Most fantasies seem to use historical cultures as a basis like LotR and The Once and Future King where a lot of liberties were taken with history and culture
Anthony wrote: "I’m finally starting! I’ve heard there was some controversy around this book, in that its non-Asian author has been accused of appropriating Asian cultures and stereotyping said cultures. I’m curio..."I had wondered about that, although I didn't see anything mentioned in the handful of reviews I skimmed. I will say that nothing has set off major alarm bells for me so far, although it's certainly not my call to make.
Elowen wrote: "...An Asian writer using white culture is not the same, because white culture is the dominant culture, at least in the English-speaking world of publishing, and very often, PoC have been, and still are, forced to adopt white culture to be able to live their lives...The biggest objection for the work then being that it is published in the 'white dominated English-speaking world'? ('White dominated' as a supposed model for regarding the world just doesn't sit well with my thought pattern personally - seems very supportive of such a 'norm' keeping it's hold).
Objections for non-Asian person using Asian influences seems rather illogical too, when regarding how non-Asian influences seem freely present within Asian (pop)culture just as well (often too, stereotyped or used without awareness or care to historical context).
I'm not saying any of this is necessarily right or wrong; all dependable on specific instances of course. Just remarking, that it happens across all directions: people basing their works on things outside their own cultures - regardless the origin of their inspirations - and making something of their own of it.
Saying/thinking that all usages of foreign culture influences are exploitation, or that someone isn't allowed to base their work on inspirations outside their own culture or play around with such themes in their imagined worlds, seems rather supportive of things just keeping that much more inbred.
The author themself is of Puerto Rican heritage. I'm not entirely sure they're necessarily benefiting from any white privilege. Or should be regarded for history of oppressing Asian nations.
I too have yet to come across anything racist, inconsiderate or stereotypical in the text. Though, obviously I haven't as deep knowledge of all the aspects it uses for inspiration, still, the book is indeed fantasy and not aiming for historical accuracy.
Also, when I think for myself - and this is of course dependent of a person and the instance too -, if ever I have seen a thing in a work of fiction / popculture, which is clearly based on an aspect of my nationality / culture, but used
When I think of all the utterly ridiculous German-inspired fantasy characters in Japanese pop culture (especially Manga and Anime), their German-inspired fantasy towns and castles, their wild mash-up of various European traditions, cultures and words that make no sense together... Or their utterly ridiculous German names that usually mean something like "Wolf Pack of Straw-Home" or "Lord Adolf of Marmelade near Vomit" when translated into English... It does show bad, sloppy research and a total lack of regard for immersiveness and realism, but I've never found it offensive in any way, just hilarious in its pulpy strangeness. Never would I have considered getting all worked-up and angry about my culture being misrepresented.
I've now read the first chapter, realizing right away that this book is also pretty pulpy, over-the-top, melodrama. I mean - the whole thing is a long letter describing someone's life story TO the person whose life story is being described, as if they were an amnesiac or hadn't experienced their own life. Moreover, it's a fantasy world in which random guys are allowed to challenge *the empress* to a duel. And a world in which women seem somehow either equally good or better at fighting than all the men, which makes no biological sense. So clearly, nothing about it is trying to achieve literary brilliance or realism, it's just meant for fun, just like those mangas about the wild adventures of Lord Adolf of Marmelade near Vomit.
@Eva, those kind of instances exactly. Mixing and matching what ever, with bizarrely unique and curious results.Also, works featuring European/American/Canadian/Australian... characters - drawing attention to specific racial features - whether black or white or brown... -, and often relying on stereotypical supposed national temperaments and behavioral patterns as well, in many cases coming across rather blatant caricatures. Just as much as a 'yellow man' would in Western works.
And speaking of dressing up, with this in mind: things like the 'maid culture' in Japan, taking the European Victorian/Edwardian era maid outfit and making it their own thing entirely (basing whole industries on it).
Or the occasional brazen trivialization of things like Nazism: how there are rockers dressing up in fashions based on Nazi uniforms, and youth who do so too to go hang around the town with friends on weekends (without any political statements, intent of malice, or awareness of the historical significance), or how the Nazis or characters based on them get featured in comics, those aimed at teenagers too. Seemingly raising controversy only, when ever so often finding their way to western media.
...but, this book. I'm surprised how okay I've managed to be with it thus far: not nearly as bored as I anticipated/suspected I'd be with this 'star-crossed young love' plot (I'd at least partly credit it to the exceptionally uplifted mood of these past few days - everything goes!).
The biggest peeve with it rose just somewhere about halfway through, with the choppy prose: the tune of the constant short sentences beginning to feel rather repetitive - like a short monotonous beat.
Eva wrote: "...And a world in which women seem somehow either equally good or better at fighting than all the men, which makes no biological sense..."
I must question gender's role in this.
I am working on something like a school project with my friends and I will come back for this one sometime in February :)
Elowen wrote: "Re: my earlier post,If you're interested in finding out more about what cultural appropriation is and isn't, check out K. Tempest Bradford's articles:
https://writingtheother.com/cultural-......"
Thank you for sharing that resource, Elowen! I wasn't aware of it before, but will be sure to share it the next time the topic of cultural appropriation comes up in one of my classes.
Edit: I'll refrain from commenting on the novel (or this specific topic with regards to it) until I've started reading.
One thing I feel is also important is that it's a misconception to believe that Asians are a minority - they are actually the vast MAJORITY of people living on this planet, and thinking of them as a minority simply because they are in the particular country you live in is very nationalistic, limited thinking. Not only are they the global majority, the majority of books published around the world is written by Asian authors. Just because not many of them write in English does not diminish their work nor their dominance of the literary market (with China in the lead where 440,000 books are published every year). Furthermore, none of the cultures that inspired this novel have ever been colonized or oppressed by any Western country.The author, a queer Puerto Rican, actually IS a true minority writer.
Now, you might say that being Puerto Rican, she *should* write only fantasy inspired by her own Puerto Rican culture. I personally think this would be a racist attitude for the following reason:
Many authors of colour feel pressured to write 'identity books' that reflected their ethnic or cultural heritage in order to be published (as described in, for example, Kean: "In full colour: cultural diversity in publishing today"). Their books often have to cover topics such as racism, colonialism or postcolonialism as if these were or should be the primary concerns of all non-white people, in order to be published. In addition to the pressure to be a spokesperson for their particular community, many authors of colour feel tokenised or fetishized by the publishing industry. Not only do many authors of colour have to ensure that their writing, “fulfils a romantic fetishisation of their cultural heritage” (Sunny Singh, chair of BAME) but the subsequent marketing of their books, and media coverage, can, according to Saha in "The rationalizing/racializing logic of capital in cultural production", also “racialize” them and their books (e.g. Brouillette: "Postcolonial writers in the global literary marketplace").
So, for these reasons, I celebrate the fact that a queer Puerto-Rican author has been published here AND I celebrate the fact that she did not have write about Puerto Rican culture and social hot topics to accomplish this AND that the marketing of this book is also not focused on her ethnicity or cultural background.
I'm also very sceptical about the notion that publishers have any "minority quotas" meant to reduce or prevent the publication of too many books written by minority authors. If any quotas exist, then they are probably meant to ensure that AT LEAST that amount of published books is from a minority author.
The moment you invent minority quotas in terms of a certain maximum, a supposed scarcity of minority slots, you're suddenly creating an artificial competition and mutual envy among minority authors and everybody starts discussing how this or that minority author wasn't worthy of their slot and that it should have been filled by another. This functions exactly like the rhetoric about immigrants taking away low-skilled labour jobs, creating a division and competition among various low-status groups, instead of them forming a unity of common interests that could challenge the status quo.
So please don't create this kind of scarcity and envy mindset in which minority authors need to defend their publication and worthiness vs. other minority authors in an artificial worthiness competition, especially considering that any successful fantasy novel with an Asian-inspired setting will actually lead to publishers being more willing to publish more and more similar books since book no. 1 proved that they can sell. Just like we're currently seeing more and more fantasy novels with a pseudo-Russian setting after the Grisha trilogy was so successful. If this one sells well, the next Mongolian immigrant in the US writing fantasy inspired by their cultural heritage will have a much, much easier job trying to sell it to publishers trying to jump on the Mongolian fantasy bandwagon.
And in the currently dominant non-English-speaking literary market, Mongolian-inspired fantasy are already absolute smash-hits, e.g. Legends of the Condor Heroes starting with A Hero Born, has sold over 300 million (!!) copies already, making it as successful as Harry Potter.
Actually, when I'm done with Tiger's Daughter, I think I'll read A Hero Born next, and I would never have discovered it without Tiger's Daughter.
I don't think anyone here has said that authors should only write about their own culture. In fact, Elowen, for example, has specifically said "I believe authors should write whatever they want." And I agree!I think what discussions around cultural appropriation are often, but not exclusively, about is how people write about cultures that are not their own. I.e. are they doing so with respect, sensitivity, and without perpetuating stereotypes. (This is why sensitivity readers are a thing.)
Again, I can't speak to this book in particular yet because I haven't started it, but the discussion here made me look at a few reviews and this one by a Japanese woman makes me think that Rivera could have done better on a lot of these points.
(And that is in addition to the point about minority writers having a hard time breaking into the English-speaking field writing about their cultures. But that has been made by other people upthread, so I'm not gonna elaborate on it again.)
Your point about writers from minority groups often feeling pressured to write "identity books" is well taken. Yes, that is another problem in the field that makes it harder for those authors to be published and be successful. But that doesn't insulate authors of minority groups from criticism when they do perpetuate stereotypes, etc.
I also think it may be time to move this discussion into a separate thread about cultural appropriation if people want to continue it so the topic doesn't completely take over this BR thread.
I've now read further (still in the first chapter) and found out that 1) the character making racist remarks (rice eater, meant to disparage non-nomadic societies who plant crops) was killed for them on the spot, and
2) the "flat faced" character isn't Asian at all, she's blond, green-eyed and dark-skinned. Does that sound Asian to you?
Just as a reminder: please use spoiler tags and chapter references in your posts. I'm not super worried about spoilers for this one (hence why I didn't mind seeking out reviews), but other people might be.
Since all of this occurs in the very first chapter and merely establishes our first impressions of the characters, I don't believe it could possibly be a spoiler. The racist character who is killed remains nameless, it's just exposition. I've added a "first chapter" reference to my post, though, so that nobody will think I've spoiled the story.
With the (very exciting) personal and professional hectic life events swirling around me at the moment, I’m having a very hard time settling into this. I don’t have any real issue with it; I just think I need something that has a bit more of an urgent drive at the moment. I think this has more than enough going for it that I want to pause and come back to it when I’m better able to enjoy its slower and more internal rhythms.
The thread will remain open and welcoming for better time! ^^
I finished it. The book was excellent. If I hadn't read the accusations of cultural misappropriation is the reviews and this thread, i wouldn't have noticed it in the book. I thought one culture was very loosely based on Japanese culture and other didn't seem to much Mongolian as a mix of Mongolian, Caucasian (the culture, not the "race") and Cossacks. Totally enjoyed it
Agreed, the nomads don't seem particularly Mongolian, nor do the others seem particularly Japanese. This book has surprised me several times now with sudden bursts of incredibly beautiful prose, it's so evocative and romantic. I take it back that I got a "pulpy" impression on the first few pages, it's much better than I expected.
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A Hero Born (other topics)The Tiger's Daughter (other topics)
I will be a day or so late myself. I thought I was going to be able to start on time but had some very big happy personal events this weekend that interfered with my reading plans...
Anyway, who’s in?