Kafka on the Shore - Open Discussion on the Entire Book (Spoilers Allowed) (November 2014)

[Whitney]

I like that interpretation a lot. It seems almost obvious in retrospect. On the surface, his stories frequently seem almost insular, but there are constant references to Japan's past; especially WWII, which was arguably the point at which Japan had to completely reinvent itself.

[Jan]

Marc: Hadn't thought of it that way, but it makes sense. It certainly gives a more interesting perspective to it. I wonder how all of the metaphysical musings the characters go into would fit into that scenario.
Besides the Oedipal theme, there's a rather confusing question of identity. Is Johnnie Walker really Kafka's father and did Kafka kill him through the Nakata (who can only talk to cats before he loses his innocence by killing J.W.)?

[Lily]

Peter wrote: "...(and, those who choose to forget lose their shadows). ..."

I wonder if Murakami knows this little English child's poem by Robert Louis Stevenson:

(view spoiler)[

From Child's Garden of Verses

I have a little shadow that goes in and out with me,
And what can be the use of him is more than I can see.
He is very, very like me from the heels up to the head;
And I see him jump before me, when I jump into my bed.

The funniest thing about him is the way he likes to grow--
Not at all like proper children, which is always very slow;
For he sometimes shoots up taller like an india-rubber ball,
And he sometimes goes so little that there's none of him at all.

He hasn't got a notion of how children ought to play,
And can only make a fool of me in every sort of way.
He stays so close behind me, he's a coward you can see;
I'd think shame to stick to nursie as that shadow sticks to me!

One morning, very early, before the sun was up,
I rose and found the shining dew on every buttercup;
But my lazy little shadow, like an arrant sleepy-head,
Had stayed at home behind me and was fast asleep in bed.

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/my-sha...

No obvious connections, yet somehow not unlike the linkages that no longer surprise when reading M.

(hide spoiler)]

More significant than this is how Nakati's and Kafka's shadows become one -- am I remembering the text correctly?

[Marc]

Jan wrote: " I wonder how all of the metaphysical musings the characters go into would fit into ..."

Well, I don't have it all worked out (nor do I think Murakami hoped there'd be one succinct explanation), but I do think either Whitney's two-realms (real/spiritual) or Violet's Jungian reading would still work with this idea. Kafka's father is both Johnnie Walker and Kafka's father (Johnnie Walker in a spiritual/psychological/symbolic sense and Kafka's father in the realistic or non-supernatural sense). A symbolic/subconscious murder leading to an actual freeing/closure in the "real" world... Maybe...

The questions of identity reach from the individual to the society, as well as across time. So, it's a bit like an ongoing struggle for identity for both the individual and the society as it deals with personal and historic tragedy/changes.

Now I'm not someone that believes just because we can read all this into a book that the author had all this planned out beforehand or necessarily even intended it. It's no different than our own lives--you have your surface-level individual story which can be summed up in facts, relationships, actions, etc. and then you are also part of a culture, a particular time period, and locale.

Interestingly enough, what got me thinking about this was some documentary showing interviews with high-school-age Japanese children randomly being asked on the street about Hiroshima--many of them did not know about the bombing. Which made me think of the group amnesia of the children and what it means for a society to forge a future while being shaped by a past it may have forgotten (willfully or otherwise).

[Lily]

Marc wrote: "...high-school-age Japanese children randomly being asked on the street about Hiroshima--many of them did not know about the bombing...."

The United States has a similar situation relative to the Civil Rights movements and actions of the 6o's and 7o's.

[Lily]

Marc wrote: "...Johnnie Walker in a spiritual/psychological/symbolic sense..."

I find "who Johnnie Walker is" hard to figure out from the Japanese perspective from which Murakami is writing. Like Colonel Sanders, he seems to have levels of connections not familiar to me here in the U.S.

[Marc]

Lily wrote: "I find "who Johnnie Walker is" hard to figure out from the Japanese perspective from which Murakami is writing."

Baffled me too. Closest I could find is that apparently, "In Japan, bottles [of Johnnie Walker] have become an essential part of the ritualized gift-giving culture." (from a larger article about the rise of Johnnie Walker globally).

Great point about the Civil Rights movement as an historical memory/knowledge gap for American youth!

[Lily]

Marc wrote: "Lily wrote: "I find "who Johnnie Walker is" hard to figure out from the Japanese perspective from which Murakami is writing."

Baffled me too. Closest I could find is that apparently, "In Japan, bo..."

I encountered some Internet articles about a high flying investment broker and art collector with a name that sounds like "Johnnie Walker." This strange article is the "best" collection in one place I've seen of those link wanderings (including the comments that follow the article):

http://madsolrikberthelsen.dk/johnny-...

Reality? Or clever, devilish net fiction?

[Nutmegger]

Marc wrote: "Jan wrote: " I wonder how all of the metaphysical musings the characters go into would fit into ..."

Well, I don't have it all worked out (nor do I think Murakami hoped there'd be one succinct exp..."

Marc, I also saw that article and was astonished. But then, not many young people in the US know much about Vietnam. The theme of out of sight, out of mind, is a good way to look at Kafka.

[Lily]

Linda wrote: " The theme of out of sight, out of mind, is a good way to look at Kafka. ..."

Meaning?....

[Lily]

Marc wrote: "...interviews with high-school-age Japanese children randomly being asked on the street about Hiroshima--many of them did not know about the bombing. Which made me think of the group amnesia of the children and what it means for a society to forge a future while being shaped by a past it may have forgotten (willfully or otherwise)...."

Is Modiano relevant to this discussion about collective memory? I haven't read any of his works:

http://www.dw.de/patrick-modiano-acce...

[Lily]

Another sidebar: Encountered this Johnnie Walker piece for the New Year 2015 a few minutes ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...

A little bit about its creation:
http://www.adweek.com/news/advertisin...

An earlier video, did this influence Haruki?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ16E...

A little long (6+ min.), but near the end are some interesting comments on the influence and "meaning?" of this brand name:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnSIp...

One more (~1min):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQAge...

[Marc]

Lily wrote: "MI encountered some Internet articles about a high flying investment broker and art collector with a name that sounds like "Johnnie Walker." This strange article is the "best" collection in one place I've seen of those link wanderings (including the comments that follow the article):

http://madsolrikberthelsen.dk/johnny-...

Reality? Or clever, devilish net fiction? ..."

Lily, that is such a bizarre and utter fascinating tie in with this book (especially, because the author goes to such lengths to tie it to this book). Took me a bit to get through it. Again, no idea of Murakami knew of this fellow (much less invoked him), but makes for endless tangents!

I also have not read any Modiano but anything to do with collective memory seems relevant to me.

[Franky]

Very late to the discussion, but I finally finished and was impressed, but maybe less so than his other works, Hard Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World and The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle. Still, very poetic and filled with brilliant symbols and metaphors. I still am trying to figure out everything in my head. I'll have to do some thinking.

I really like Miss Saiki's quote: "For me, though, having no conclusion seemed perfectly fine." This is when she is speaking to Kafka about her book. I thought it was a very fitting quote, because it seems to represent the whole concept of coming to one's own conclusions.

Maybe someone can answer this question for me. As far as the "Kafka on the Shore" song lyrics, I just wondered why she (presumably Miss Saiki) is referred to as the "drowning girl?"

[Lily]

Franky wrote: "Maybe someone can answer this question for me. As far as the "Kafka on the Shore" song lyrics, I just wondered why she (presumably Miss Saiki) is referred to as the "drowning girl?" ,..."

Franky -- Don't know a response to your question, but if you feel like searching, maybe one of these reviews might provide a clue:

The Atlantic Monthly 295 (June, 2005): 124.

Booklist 101, no. 6 (November 15, 2004): 532.

Kirkus Reviews 72, no. 23 (December 1, 2004): 1110.

Library Journal 130, no. 1 (January, 2005): 99.

Los Angeles Times Book Review, January 23, 2005, p. 3.

The New Leader 88, no. 1 (January/February, 2005): 28-29.

New Statesman 134 (January 24, 2005): 52-53.

The New York Times 154 (January 31, 2005): E10.

The New York Times Book Review 154 (February 6, 2005): 1-10.

The New Yorker 80 (January 24, 2005): 91.

Newsweek 145, no. 4 (January 24, 2005): 67.

People 63, no. 2 (January 17, 2005): 55.

Publishers Weekly 251, no. 49 (December 6, 2004): 42.

The Times Literary Supplement, January 7, 2005, pp. 19-20.

http://www.enotes.com/topics/kafka-on...

(Thought I might find an analysis; found the list above instead.)

[Franky]

Thanks Lily for the references. I'll check out some of them or look a bit more around online.

I'm guessing at my own question, but I sort of concluded that the term 'drowning' maybe had a metaphorical connected to being upset about heartache or a loved one lost.

[Whitney]

I also interpreted the drowning girl as Miss Saiki. Especially given that Miss Saiki is the one who opened the entrance stone, and the lyrics say "The drowning girl's fingers, Search for the entrance stone, and more."

[Maureen]

Franky wrote: "Thanks Lily for the references. I'll check out some of them or look a bit more around online.

I'm guessing at my own question, but I sort of concluded that the term 'drowning' maybe had a metapho..."

Franky, I think you are right on target with the metaphorical interpretation, and Lily, why am I not surprised, but thankful, that you so thoroughly provided these resources!

This novel continues to haunt me, and if i heard the song in my reader's imagination, it also haunts me. Amazing writing!