Challenges for 2020 long series or not?

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

There have been a couple of suggested challenges for next year.

1) Read the Vorkosigan books by Lois McMaster Bujold (lots of H/N nominees)
2) Read the Jack McDevitt books (2 series, don't know if/how they are related, several nominees in each)
For both of these I expect us mods will figure out the timing of the reads by number of pages so that we don't get too swamped. (ART! Please come back and do this! You are so good at it!!!) Besides, if everyone gets behind, we can agree to change the schedule. And if we pick Vorkosigan, I expect that after the first few books everyone will just gobble them up as fast as they can because that's what happened with the 2 friends I recommended them to.

Also, another possibilities:
3) Read some other long series for the year
4) Read some shorter series, perhaps more than one, three month challenges as we have been doing this year. (Sprawl is going on now)
5) Only continue the author's birthday challenge and forget the rest (but there are many longer series that we should read sometime)

Yet another possibility is to stop having 2 books of the month since people are often not getting through them. This will allow more emphasis on buddy reads and challenges.

In a few days, I intend to set up some polls for people to vote in about these subjects.

What am I missing . . . what else should we do?

Discuss . . .

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

I fully support #1 and 2! for Bujold I guess it should be at least a half-year challenge! I'm in for both. With #5 (the author's birthday challenge) I guess we're quite packed, so I'm unsure about more series at the moment.

[Gabi]

I'm generally no fan of longer series, but would join a Vorkosigan read since I liked Bujold's style in her Chalion books.

[Silvana]

Either short series or BRs works for me best. Tried Vorkosigan books (did not like them) and not interested with DeVitt.

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

I'm going to leave this open for a bit before I put out any polls.

I guess I should say, although I love Vorkosigan and will read again, don't vote for it because of me! I can reread it any time.

I will figure out how to get all the books for everyone eventually. I have noticed that Amazon, a couple of months ago, did not have the order right, nor did they have all the books listed, so don't rely upon them. Also, there's a few short pieces I hope to find online so everyone can just read them that way.

Recommendations will follow if this series is chosen. Re the other, if it is chosen, I plan to read them all, even the ones at the beginnings of the series that did not get nominated (some of the ones early in Vorkosigan are like that, too. Learning curve by writer and readers in the case of the Vorkosigan series . . . )

I will set up the order if we choose Vorkosigan because I already did that in a post somewhere and because I can do it from memory.

[Anthony]

I’m definitely interested in reading Vorkosigan, even though I have yet to really love Bujold. I *like* her work very much, though, and I know how beloved the Vorkosigan books are. (I’ve read Falling Free, which I understand is not as directly connected to the other books in the series, and which I thought was pretty mediocre in some respects.)

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

Yes, I was surprised that Falling Free won either the Hugo or the Nebula, can't remember which. And it is just a light little book. But good. Yet people keep trying to paste it on to the front of the series, and I don't think it's the place to start.

When we read them as a series I am tempted to skip it and come back later, after Shards of Honour, (not nominated) Barrayar, (won Hugo-chronologically immediately follows Shards but was written years later) The Warrior's Apprentice, (not nominated), The Mountains of Mourning, (won Hugo Novella) The Vor Game (won Hugo) and Cetaganda (nominated for one or the other, cannot remember)

You don't really need Falling Free at all, but if you do read it, you definitely don't need it until right before a short piece, "Labyrinth" https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7...

So it's pretty optional. And maybe that's the way we should do it. Put it up as optional.

And also, Ethan of Athos (not nominated and not as good as most, though it's fun) is not needed. Art and I left it out of the series list elsewhere in the group. It would be before you'd need Falling Free, also. Ethan of Athos is out of the main sequence of Vorkosigan books, containing one character from that series as the main character, and she's not a Vorkosigan. I have a theory why she has a book written about her . . . but no time now.

[Anthony]

Except this group is meaning to read all the nominated and awarded books, and Falling Free did win the Nebula. Just saying...

[Jemppu]

I'm in support of option 1 as well: I've been curious to read more of the Vorkosigan saga anyway, and they all seem quite readily available on the audiobook service of choice. Already read Falling Free last year, and recently started Shards of Honour.

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

I'm not saying we won't read Falling Free, I'm just saying we don't start there or maybe even make it optional.

That seems to be what the author even thinks. When she formed the books into omnibuses (omnibusi?) she did not start there,
First, Shards of Honour and Barrayar were joined as Cordelia's Honor. Then book:The Warrior's Apprentice|61906], The Mountains of Mourning, and The Vor Game were made into a tome entitled Young Miles. Falling Free was included in a later book, but I can't remember which one right now because the names were not that clear.

Anyway, probably tomorrow I will put a poll out to the entire group as to their choice, unless you guys just want me to tell them we are doing Vorkosigan and would they like to join. Because we could do that.

[Anthony]

Out of curiosity, which reading order would you be referencing? I’ve seen multiple lists.

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

Anthony, I'm planning on posting the whole reading order, though I was actually planning on doing so AFTER we decided if this was really what we wanted to do.

You have seen much of the order above in my posting above. After the short little ones like Labyrinth and whatever the one that Miles gets famous for (can't remember name right now) it becomes very straightforward because writing order becomes chronological order from Brothers in Arms except for Captain Vorpatril's Alliance, which should be read ahead of CryoBurn for strict chronological order.

The whole reason that I don't want to have people read Falling Free first is that they might not want to continue the series. Some of the early ones are weaker. Memory is my favorite ever, followed by A Civil Campaign and Mirror Dance, probably. But you have to read, like, 7 books before you get there if you are reading chronologically. Plus, I love Komarr now, it's one of my faves, but when I first read it, I wasn't that crazy about it.

I'm doing this all from memory, but as I recollect, The only non-nominees are Shards of Honour, The Warrior's Apprentice and Ethan of Athos and maybe Brothers in Arms. They were all written earlier in her career, and both she and the characters have matured.

But all of these need to be read because, for example, Shards of Honour is continued by Barrayar, Brothers in Arms is what happened before, and led to, Mirror Dance. Even Cetaganda is referred to a bit and gives good info about the baddies (though it was nominated, I don't like it much). IMHO, the only book you can actually skip is Ethan of Athos

Acually, despite my wanting you guys to read them in order for maximum effect and enjoyment, you can pick up any of her books out of order and enjoy them because Bujold is pretty good at just telling you want you need to know to read the one book. She concentrates on making each book capable of being read independently. But that's not nearly as much fun.

After I figure out what the names of the short pieces are, I plan to put out an entire chronology. I also have done this maybe a year and a half ago in this group, so I will find that, too. Maybe just copy and paste it.

But must get off this computer now. Later!

[Anthony]

I’m sorry, when you speak of chronology, do you mean within the story of the books themselves? I guess I’m a believer in reading books such as this in publication order; that’s how you can really understand and appreciate an author’s long-range plans, and how you can see progress and (hopefully) growth in their abilities.

[Kalin]

Is this a nomination thread for 2020 challenges or just for discussing the ideas that have already been put forward?

Has the group ever discussed doing challenges related to author bibliographies that don't fit a series -- ie. reading a number of nominated/winning books from one specific author even though they're stand-alone novels?

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

Kalin--This is just a discussion. I was planning to put out a poll to see what people wanted to do, Vorkosigan, Jack McDevitt, or something else. So please chime in.

And no, Kalin, we have not discussed doing what I guess I would call an author challenge, although Vorkosigan and Jack McDevitt might be such in this case because this group has already read Chalion. Interesting idea. We can put it in the poll and see if it wins, and if so, then we could have another poll about which author . . .

Anthony Re: Vorkosigan and publication order . . . should be read chronological, IMO. I definitely think so, and more importantly, the guy who turned me on to them in the first place, who usually reads everything in publication order, told me that I was right to read chronologically and that he was going to go back and read chronologically up to the point where we were. By that time, chrono and pub were almost identical anyway, but since he was going to reread, he was going to reread chono. (This was probably late 90's or early 00's, I think, because I quit working with him on a daily basis in early 2004--though we kept running into each other in the halls and babbling about great books we'd read.)

That's not to say that we each can't read them in whatever order we want. Or we could put a poll up (if we choose to do Vorkosigan) and ask how people want to do it. I think it might be kind of interesting for me to follow publication order as I have always read them chronologically, anyway. Better storywise. But I get the idea of wanting to see her writing develop.

The two ways to order the books are are pretty close, anyway, except at the beginning.

Here's publication order https://www.goodreads.com/series/9825...
Here's chronological order https://www.goodreads.com/series/9825...

Dreamweaver's Dilemma is early on in the Vorkosigan universe. And Weatherman is a shorter version of the first part of The Vor Game. I have never read either of them.

[Anthony]

I’d be happy to put it to a vote. Does Bujold herself say anything about it?

[Jemppu]

This here entry by Bujold provides the 'Author's recommended order'.

[Anthony]

In that case, I would be more than happy to follow the author’s recommendation, since she is the authority on the subject. Thanks, Jemppu!

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

Thanks for this link, Jemppu, because now I don't have to do anymore! That looks perfect. In fact, I may have seen it before. :-)

[Allan]

I would enjoy a Vorkosigan challenge. I've read Falling Free and have the compilation version of Shards of Honor & Barrayar, which are earliest Bujold's recommended order. For me, most of the other novels are available through the city library, both e-book and audio. My only hesitation is whether I could make it through 14 books without getting tired of the series.

I'd do this in place of the quarterly challenges. If we did two per month, we could reduce the page count in the regular group reads. I've managed to read all of them this year except for Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell, which I just couldn't get motivated to read. I don't mind the birthday challenges at all but they're the most expendable imho.

As for McDevitt, I'd pick one series or the other and do that after Vorkosigan, maybe the 2nd half of the year. Or have one McDevitt as one of the monthly reads - that's the only way I'd do two series concurrently. The two McDevitt series are unrelated, easy, entertaining reading that moves along pretty quickly. I started the Academy series early in the year, read two and switched to Alex Benedict and read three, and I've been dying to get back to the Academy all year. TMB/TLT.

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

Allen, all I can say about getting tired of the series is, back when there were maybe 8-10 books, I tried to give my best friend all of them at once (I think the most recent was Memory back then.)

She didn't read that fast, but by the next WEEK, she was at my door begging for the rest. So will you get tired of them? I think not.

I was actually thinking of spreading the Vorkosigan books over the whole year, actually. Let's discuss. Most people don't read at the rate you do, Allan.

[Anthony]

I vote in favor of spreading them out over the whole year, but that’s in part because I have the (perhaps unusual?) quirk of enjoying reading other stories set in other worlds and with a variety of tone and approach between reading entries in a series.

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

I second the year long challenge

[Allan]

I'm good with that too. We can figure out what to do wit McDevitt

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

Maybe do McDevitt the next year.

I will put up a poll soon==tomorrow

It will say:

What challenges do you want next year
1) Vorkosigan
2) McDevitt
3) Author's challenges (read all of an author's nominated works)
4) Other challenges (write in--you can make a poll that allows that)

Is there anything else we should put?

Another possibility==Start reading only 1 book of the month to make room for challenges and buddy reads. Annti, for example, says he only gets one of the monthly reads done every month . . . but this doesn't have to go in the poll tomorrow . . .

Any thing else that needs to go in the poll? I will send out word of the poll by group email instead of through the poll function because if works better, plus, I get a copy and can see if I messed anything up.

Do you guys think a week is long enough?

[Allan]

What about the quarterly (more or less) challenges?

One idea is to control 1 or 2 books on page count. Either the total monthly page count including all books, or the total page count of just the 1 or 2. I've kept up with almost everything, but then I don't have other groups to read for and have stuck with the list for about 2 years (109 listed books in that time). But I would like to have a history goal in addition to this group, so that might give me time for that.

[Allan]

Duh, it occurred to me that the series challenges ARE the quarterly challenges, so your list is fine. I don't know what a manageable monthly page limit would be for most members.

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

You know, I was thinking that we could start Vorkosigan and then if we really get though it faster or we don't think we have enough to read, we can start McDevitt concurrently. I will put up the poll today and have it end on Halloween. Really, most everyone votes right away, but I will still leave it up a week.

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

While we are talking about challenges, let me hijack the thread. What do you think about re-making Author's birthday challenge from 1 book 1 month to an annual challenge - we'll still vote for each separately, but it will be one big challenge for 12 books. I planned to do it retroactively, taking all ABC to date to the challenge

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

I don't really have an opinion about how to do the author's challenges. Some months I have read, and some months I have not had enough time. I still wish I had made it through Embassytown. So having a longer period of time would have been good for that challenge

Maybe I will read that now.

Would you have to read all? Or would, say, eight or ten out of twelve be enough? And what if you hate it and decide to quit? What percentage do you have to read before it counts?

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

Kateblue wrote: "Would you have to read all? Or would, say, eight or ten out of twelve be enough? "

You read any number. If you read 6 of 12, you get 1 ENC, 9 - 2 ENCs, all 12 - 3 ENCs. Any % counts

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

Well, it works for me. I don't know how much I will participate, though. I keep skipping or quitting books because I overcommit. But there are some long series coming up in other groups that I really want to read.

And I still have a question, what it you hate a book and you read 20% of it . . . 50% of it . . . 80% of it (though at 80% I am most likely to just quickly scan the rest to see how it comes out, and that would count)

Plus, if you decide to do six, you can change to another month's author if you hate the book you are reading

Here's ANOTHER question. Would we all be reading the same book? Or would we vote each month on which author and then which book? That's a lot of polls.

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

Kateblue wrote: "And I still have a question, what it you hate a book and you read 20% of it . . . 50% of it . . . 80% of it (though at 80% I am most likely to just quickly scan the rest to see how it comes out, and that would count)"

It is up to you, what to count as finished, after all anyone here on GR can set book status to 'read' without even opening it. So rule of thumb - if you read enough to comment on it, count as done.

Kateblue wrote: "Would we all be reading the same book? Or would we vote each month on which author and then which book?"

Just like the previous times, Bryan names one or more eligible authors, vote if more than one and then it is quite often 1-2 books that were nominated for H/N

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

OK, well someone in another group JUST came up with another series to read (Jasper Fforde, one of the most underappreciated writers of all time). So will be reading even more . . .

[Kalin]

It seemed like there was some traction on my proposal for a Gene Wolfe challenge next year. If I drop the others can we keep talking about that as a possibility?

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

Sure, I want to do McDevitt, also. It looks like we are doing Vorkosigan first, but the people who want specific authors have passed McDevitt, now. Wolfe would fit there.

I need to sit down and figure out Vorkosigan by how many pages. Or maybe we should have a Vorkosigan race so we can get on with other books. Because I think that is what will happen. People will get interested and speed through them.

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

Kalin wrote: "It seemed like there was some traction on my proposal for a Gene Wolfe challenge next year. If I drop the others can we keep talking about that as a possibility?"

Of course! I'm a little afraid of Wolfe (no pun) because I only read his short fiction and after it I've read the whole review what it meant...

[Gabi]

Oleksandr wrote: "Of course! I'm a little afraid of Wolfe (no pun) because I only read his short fiction and after it I've read the whole review what it meant... ..."

I've read myself through the Books of the New Sun earlier this year and I was surprised how good they are to follow (if one concentrates a lot, that's for sure). The one that really got me confused was the fifth one. I guess to get everything there I should have been familiar with the Kabbalah

[Cordelia]

I would be interested in all of those. Count me in.

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

Ok, so obviously Vorkisigan won the 2020 challenge selection. I will try to sit down within the week and try to split up the books into months to try to even out the word counts, although I still expect everyone will get excited and read more quickly. We can always adjust.

[Allan]

I like Kalin's Gene Wolfe idea as well as the others. I've been trying to get to the Book of the New Sun but haven't managed to get around everything else. Not sure where we'd fit it in but a 4-5 book challenge would be great.

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

How about we do Vorkosigan and then we do Wolfe after? Or McDevitt. I'm not picky.

My problem right now is that I don't know whether to set Vorkosigan over the whole year, or over a lesser time span. And if I do, what lesser time span.

CAVEAT (inserted 1 hour after original post): Please remember as you read this post and post 44 the rationale for this group's existence. We exist to read all the Hugo and Nebula nominees and winners. That's why some books say that they can be omitted. There are some that I think cannot be that are not nominated, but a couple of years ago, I was asked which ones we DON'T have to read.

I actually say let's read them all. I have. Several times. Go to message 48 if that is your plan.

Here's the order based upon discussions by the author, https://www.goodreads.com/story/show/..., and the fact that I have read these books before, some several times, and this is what I think.

Also, the ones marked OPTIONAL are the ones that were not nominated AND that, if omitted, don't really interfere with your understanding of what's going on.

Shards of Honour (not nominated) THESE 2 are basically ONE story
Barrayar

The Warrior's Apprentice (not nominated)
“The Mountains of Mourning” novella WON
“Weatherman” OMIT, it's in The Vor Game
The Vor Game

Cetaganda
Ethan of Athos OPTIONAL not nominated and not in the main sequence, really

Falling Free AUTHOR suggests read before Labyrinth OR Diplomatic Immunity

Borders of Infinity the book=framework for 3 stories, Mountain of Morning above, plus:
“Labyrinth” (not nominated) introduces characters and events referred to later
“The Borders of Infinity” (not nominated) ditto

Brothers in Arms (not nominated) BUT THESE TWO are more connected than most
Mirror Dance

Memory this is a bridge between 2 parts of the Vorkosigan arc, and is my absolute favorite on the days A Civil Campaign is not

Komarr
A Civil Campaign
“Winterfair Gifts” Novella==NOMINATED
Diplomatic Immunity
Captain Vorpatril's Alliance
"The Flowers of Vashnoi" OPTIONAL
CryoBurn
Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen OPTIONAL nobody liked this one, including me.

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

Here are the nominees and winners per sfadb https://www.sfadb.com/Lois_McMaster_B...

I have omitted other series

— Major Awards —
Hugo Awards — for SF/F works, voted by members of annual World Science Fiction Convention
(16 nominations; 7 wins)

2017:The Vorkosigan Saga (Baen) — series — winner
2013:Captain Vorpatril's Alliance (Baen) — novel — nomination
2011:Cryoburn (Baen) — novel — nomination
2005:“Winterfair Gifts” (Irresistible Forces NAL) — novella — nomination
2000:A Civil Campaign (Baen) — novel — nomination
1997:Memory (Baen) — novel — nomination
1995:Mirror Dance (Baen) — novel — winner
1992:Barrayar (Baen) — novel — winner
1991:The Vor Game (Baen) — novel — winner
1990:“The Mountains of Mourning” (Analog May 1989) — novella — winner
1989:Falling Free (Baen) — novel — nomination

Nebula Awards — for SF/F works, voted by SF & Fantasy Writers of America professional membership
(8 nominations; 3 wins)

2004:Diplomatic Immunity (Baen) — novel — nomination
2001:A Civil Campaign (Baen) — novel — nomination
1998:Memory (Baen) — novel — nomination
1992:Barrayar (Baen) — novel — nomination
1991:“Weatherman” (Analog Feb 1990) — novella — nomination
1990:“The Mountains of Mourning” (Analog May 1989) — novella — winner
1989:Falling Free (Baen) — novel — winner

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

After constructing the two posts above, I am tempted to divide the books up like this

Jan-Mar

Shards of Honour (not nominated) THESE 2 are basically ONE story
Barrayar

The Warrior's Apprentice (not nominated)
“The Mountains of Mourning” novella WON
“Weatherman” OMIT, it's in The Vor Game
The Vor Game

Cetaganda I thought this was nominated, but I don't see it on the list above--Cetaganda has helpful info about the Cetagandans and about two characters you see a lot of later. Plus some points are directly mentioned later. But if you are behind, skip it, that's why I put it last. It's not as closely connected to events in other books.

Apr-June

Ethan of Athos OPTIONAL not nominated and not in the main sequence, really

Falling Free AUTHOR suggests read before Labyrinth OR Diplomatic Immunity

Borders of Infinity the book=framework for 3 stories, Mountain of Morning above, plus:
“Labyrinth” (not nominated) introduces characters and events referred to later
“The Borders of Infinity” (not nominated) ditto

Brothers in Arms (not nominated) BUT THESE TWO are more connected than most
Mirror Dance

Memory this is a bridge between 2 parts of the Vorkosigan arc, and is my absolute favorite on the days A Civil Campaign is not

July-until done

Komarr
A Civil Campaign
“Winterfair Gifts” Novella==NOMINATED
Diplomatic Immunity
Captain Vorpatril's Alliance
"The Flowers of Vashnoi" novella OPTIONAL
CryoBurn
Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen OPTIONAL nobody liked this one, including me.

PLEASE keep in mind, I expect everyone will get done way sooner than this schedule. These books are addictive and you will probably want to keep going once you start.

OK! Discuss! All of this is subject to change and I have not done word counts.

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

And Anthony . . . I know you said you want to read in publication order to study the author's development, but let me say this . . . if you read them in this order, you are getting a mini-view of the author's skill level increase because the groups of two books have one early one and one later one (the later one having won the award)

E.g.,

Shards of Honour (not nominated)
Barrayar

The Warrior's Apprentice (not nominated)
The Vor Game

Brothers in Arms (not nominated)
Mirror Dance

So I think reading them this way gets you the comparison you want. I can sure see the increase in writing skill as I read these duos.

[Anthony]

I’m sorry, Kate, that list sort of confused me. Are you suggesting we don’t read everything?

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

This was a discussion that Art and I had long ago. He wanted to know which ones we had to read. The only one I could omit was Ethan of Athos because it is just not that connected to the others. BUT I think we should read them all.

I'm just saying, if they are marked as optional, they were not nominated and do not necessarily add that much to the story as a whole.

I personally would not omit Cetaganda. But it is not nominated. The whole point of this group is to read all the hugo and/or nebula nominated books

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

Here's an easier list to look at if you are not planning on skipping any (shorter pieces are in italics):


Shards of Honor
Barrayar
The Warrior’s Apprentice
“The Mountains of Mourning”
The Vor Game
Cetaganda
Ethan of Athos
Falling Free
Borders of Infinity, containing Mountains of Mourning, above, plus
. . . . .“Labyrinth”
. . . . .“The Borders of Infinity”
Brothers in Arms
Mirror Dance
Memory
Komarr
A Civil Campaign
“Winterfair Gifts”
Diplomatic Immunity
Captain Vorpatril’s Alliance
"The Flowers of Vashnoi"
CryoBurn
Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen

[Anthony]

Thanks! That’s much clearer. I’m happy to give the whole damn thing a shot. I’ve already read Falling Free and I won’t be rereading that.

[Jemppu]

I will gladly join for the whole series as well. And preferably follow the author suggested order.