Series: Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson ("Red Mars")

[Gabi]

Update: Starting Last week of December we will be reading Blue Mars

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Starting October 25th we are reading the second part of the Mars-Trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson, the Hugo and Locus award winner "Green Mars".

For those interested we will continue with "Blue Mars" in this thread at a later point.

Please keep all spoilers in tags and state chapter or percentage so that everybody can smoothly follow the discussion.

[Gabi]

I'm curious to see if the novel is an elaboration of the novella some of us have read in the 1985's Dozois anthology of best SF.

[Jemppu]

Gabi wrote: "I'm curious to see if the novel is an elaboration of the novella some of us have read in the 1985's Dozois anthology of best SF."

Or if the novella is an excerpt (or perhaps a 'side story?), since wasn't it mostly about (view spoiler)[climbing Olympus Mons (hide spoiler)]. Which itself is a fascinating topic, but would be quite a departure from the first book's sociopolitical themes ((view spoiler)[and more of an expedition/survival story? (hide spoiler)]).

Curious indeed. Also for how the individuals named in the novella could be linked to the cast of Red Mars.

[DivaDiane]

I’ll be joining you! As soon as I finish Blackout, that is!

[Anthony]

Who’s in for this? I just started and am very much enthralled already. KSR has a real gift for getting inside the heads and hearts of his POV characters.

[Gabi]

Oh, you started early.
I have to finish the wonderful Chinese SF story collection first.

[Mareike]

I plan on joining, but I might be a bit late. I was thinking of eye-reading this one rather than listening and need to check if my library has a copy.

[Anthony]

I started early in part because my reading time will be somewhat curtailed during DST in Birmingham, and I don’t want to fall behind.

[Jemppu]

In for it and started early too yesterday. Enjoying the first steps.

Oh, DST Birmingham... *sigh* <:) I'm sure it'll be fun! ^^ (and hope they have something planned for your bday too)

[Gabi]

@Anthony, yeah just rub it in. I'll be sitting here sulking cause of Birmingham. ;D
Have fun there! <3

[Jemppu]

*haha* I was so serious about piling on a loan and going last year... and then realized how effin expensive the required plane trips would be from here to mainland Europe to UK (not to mention the step required to go travel alone). Some year, Gabi <:D Commiseration party? *ha*

[Gabi]

Jemppu, I'll join ;p.

BTT: Those who've already started - is there a connection to the novella in 'Year's Best SF collection' ?

[DivaDiane]

I’ll be listening to this as soon as I finish All Clear, so it might be a while. I might see if the library has a copy so, I can at least Wye read it earlier. I can’t keep up with you guys!

[Dawn F]

I’m in too, but need to finish a couple of books before starting on it.

[Jemppu]

@Gabi, so far doesn't seem to be. No connecting names at least.

The novella kinda felt like it could be a side story of sorts, perhaps something only mentioned in the book at some point, so, curious to see, if it'll show up and in what form ^^

[Amanda]

I lucked out and my library apparently had the ebook available (they didn't have it at all a month ago), so I'll be joining as soon as I get through the rest of Red Mars.

[Sarah]

I'll have to wait until the weekend and find some time in between work and DST.

[Anthony]

Just finished part 2. One of the greatest pleasures of these novels is getting to see characters from inside their heads and from the perspective of other characters. Toward the end of part 2 there’s a wonderful example of this, when (view spoiler)[ Art meets Nirgal for the first time. (hide spoiler)]

[Gabi]

I've started (end of part 1) and I'm just happy to hold a novel in my hand where there actually is (natural) science in the fiction. As with the first book I can go on and on reading about the landscape and different attempts at trying to form a home out of the seemingly uninhabitable. Therefore (view spoiler)[ my favourite scenes of the first part were the trip of Nirgal and Coyote. It was interesting to learn how the single sanctuaries specialized and what a fragile network keeps them together. The looming danger there was palpable. How easy is this net broken and with what severe consequences. KSR is so good in making me feel like being there myself.

The difference between the first Mars generation and the ones still with memories of Earth also was a powerful display in this part. One could feel the shift in priorities and understanding, even greater than the usual rupture between the children and parent generation. I'm eager to see how the new 'Marsians' will develop.

Quite touching was the scene with Nirgal and Simon. The first encounter with mortality and the unsuccessful attempt to fight it.

Nirgal's coming of age story was very well done. KSR got me interested in this character and I'm all there to learn more of his journey. (hide spoiler)]

[Anthony]

Glad you’re feeling all those things, Gabi. I’m increasingly in awe of the ambition and scope of this trilogy, the intellectual rigor on display, and the dedication to exploring human beings in the center of all of it.

[Jemppu]

@Gabi, agreed, agreed, and glad you're enjoying it. (view spoiler)[The prospects of these next gen are uplifting to imagine, their interaction with the original Terran elders fascinating to follow. I too am fond with this new cast. (hide spoiler)]

Beginning of Part II: (view spoiler)[I have to squee here too how awestruck I was of the scenery described upon Art's arrival. The experience of the shuttle flight, the elevator ride and the whole scene around the cable fall site were evocative of beautifully grant images. Inspiring, and he brief glimpses to the history of Martian inhabitation and the observations about the native new gen were great. Got me excited for this new outsider's POV.

Art, Sax, Ann, Nirgal... I'm feeling quite invested to all of these individual journeys, and it's making reading of them so enjoyable. (hide spoiler)]

Anthony: yes! The intellectual might is indeed strong with this one, and it is such a pleasure to read it used for good intentions.

[Gabi]

Yes, I'm definitely enjoying it. I'm digging the clear prose without flourish and the emphasis on the plot.

Part 2: (view spoiler)[ I was all with Art with his nausea and the horror of the open space and heights on Mars. I wouldn't have felt any different.

In this part I liked the short insight into Earth's economy. A planet on the verge of overpopulation with no way out. No wonder all efforts turn towards Mars. The mind games Ford was playing with his trainees were interesting to follow. Since it is a book about Mars it was clear what this all was about, but I liked the economical musings in their own.

Now I'm curious to see how the newbie gets on with the underground. (hide spoiler)]

[Amanda]

Just finished part 1 and really enjoyed (view spoiler)[getting to see the different kind of communities that have formed. Looking forward to seeing how this society continues to develop, cut off from Earth. (hide spoiler)]

[Gabi]

@Anthony: agreed. The multi POV was a characteristic that I already loved in the first book. It is a wonderful tool to balance the story.

@Jemppu: oh yes, the description in part 2 was very nice, indeed.

@Amanda: I felt the same.

[Gabi]

End of part 3. What a powerful chapter! (view spoiler)[ I was totally sold how KSR wrote Ann's deep-rooted melancholy. The landscape and her inner turmoil mirrored each other wonderfully. And how she hated on the planet that she wasn't allowed to die when she wanted the way out (but apparently doesn't dare to kill herself). The guilt of the survivor weighs heavily on her. And her finally choosing the side of the Reds is a logical conclusion of her emotional battles.

Again I loved her musings about Hiroko whom she despises. KSR shows the different opinions in a rather impartial way. That was something that already delighted me in "Red Mars". (hide spoiler)]

[Carol]

Gabi wrote: "Starting October 25th we are reading the second part of the Mars-Trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson, the Hugo and Locus award winner "Green Mars".

For those interested we will continue with "Blue Mar..."

Thank you. I look forward to it!

[Jemppu]

Gabi wrote: "End of part 3. What a powerful chapter!..."

Yes! It's a gorgeous passage, both with the sensory imagery as well as showing the inner pathos.

And it's pleasing indeed how well Robinson presents the different personalities and their individual traits, and attitudes towards self and others.

[DivaDiane]

I did, in fact, start listening to this instead of All Clear. And immediately, there’s mention of Viriditas again (Robinson first used it in Red Mars and actually explained it - do you remember?). I can’t tell you how much this makes me love KSR. One of my musical specialties is the music of Hildegard von Bingen, who invented the idea of Viriditas. Her music is full of of it, in fact I’ll be singing it in a concert tomorrow in Germany (Hadamar). I wish I had read these books when I interviewed KSR for StarShipSofa’s SofaCon. I really want to know why he know about it!!

[Gabi]

This is terrific, Diane! I read about the Hildegard von Bingen connection when I looked up viriditas. I would love to hear you sing (you don't know by chance Katja Moslehner?, she sang for a time with a fav band of mine and it was the first time I heard of the music of Hildegard von Bingen)

[Amanda]

Part 4: (view spoiler)["Stephen, I'd like you to meet Phyllis Boyle. Phyllis, this is Stephen Lindholm."
"How do you do?" Phyllis said, extending a hand.

Uh oh... :D

Also, very much appreciating Sax's thoughts about multiple intelligences. (hide spoiler)]

[DivaDiane]

I don’t know her, Gabi. She sings in a Band? What does she do with Hildegard of Bingen?!?

[Gabi]

Diane wrote: "I don’t know her, Gabi. She sings in a Band? What does she do with Hildegard of Bingen?!?"

She's performing solo now. Her love for music and singing started with Hildegard von Bingen according to her bio. I thought perhaps the group of artists in this field is so small that you'd know her.

Yet, BTT. I finished part 4 and I'm totally awed (view spoiler)[how much scientific research KSR did for this novel. I sucked it in like a dry sponge. That's what I want to read. The different scenarios, the pros and cons, the musings about natural history, about the transfer of evolutional principles of the history of human society. I just love how he tries to examine the topics from various sides.
As well as the way Sax always comes back to Ann's views and compares them to his own experiences. All of this was so down my alley.

Of course I'm in love with all the passages about the pioneer fauna. They were written so wonderfully pictorial. And I was surprised that a German word (krummholz) found its way into the scientific terms.

I'm not sure what to think about the relationship with Phyllis. It felt a bit awkward. She came across quite cardboardy. Like Sax I can't imagine that a scientist loses one's interest in the field, no matter how long or far removed.

I must say, I very much like Sax. He reminds me a lot of my boss at my old working place in the ecotoxicology lab, which was job-wise the happiest time of my life. (hide spoiler)]

A question: what is 'kissing in the European style'? I never was aware of us kissing differently.

And, Amanda, I must shamefully admit that (view spoiler)[ I didn't remember Phyllis at all from the first novel ^^'. Took me a bit to get the precarious situation. (hide spoiler)]

Oh, and not to forget ... I adore how different KSR manages to write the POVs of Ann and Sax.

... yes, I loved that chapter. (nobody would have guessed that ... ;P)

[Amanda]

Gabi, I might not have remembered her either if I hadn't finished the previous book right before starting this one. But as it was she really stuck out in the second half as as much of an antagonist as you can have in this type of novel.

[Gabi]

Amanda wrote: "Gabi, I might not have remembered her either if I hadn't finished the previous book right before starting this one. But as it was she really stuck out in the second half as as much of an antagonist..."

Yeah, for me it is a drawback that I have let some months pass between the two books. My memory just isn't made for spacing out series ^^'. Therefore I'll read "Blue Mars" relatively soon after this one.

[Jemppu]

Gabi: (view spoiler)[Agreed on Phyllis, and the artificiality of their relationship. But I got the impression that was supposed to be rather awkward.

Sax was easily my favorite journey to follow through this book. Though there was a short bit, where I was kinda left missing reading their POV... but which could've understandably lessened the dramatic impact of the portrayal a bit. And who knows, perhaps there'll be recollections in the third book still.

I was puzzled/amused by the 'kissing in the European style' as well <:D But supposed it meant kisses on cheeks to greet, à la French. 'European' is close enough, I guess, for someone on Mars *hah* (...OR, perhaps that habit has spread to common practice throughout Europe by then *he*) (hide spoiler)]

[Amanda]

Love this bit, from the intro to part 5:
This truth was never more manifest than on Mars, where noosphere preceded biosphere—the layer of thought first enwrapping the silent planet from afar, inhabiting it with stories and plans and dreams, until the moment when John stepped out and said Here we are—

So wonderfully evocative.

[Gabi]

@Amanda: aw, yes! I love the philosophical ideas presented here. And there is so many new stuff I learn. I never heard of noosphere before. My head is pleasantly spinning with all these concepts.

[Gabi]

:D what I have here more than with other books are the moments where I click on an unknown word in anticipation of a vocabulary revolution - and find that it is just the same term in German, making it not a problem of my grasping of the English language but of my general education. ;p

[Gabi]

@Jemppu: this could be the European kissing explanation (although a bit strange since I only ever learned of this kind of greeting from our Swiss friends and I didn't like it at all ... feels so artificial)

Part 6 was another strong one (okay ... superfluous comment, so far there was no weak part) (view spoiler)[ Here I could appreciate the different takes on community building than in the beginning of the book. It feels very appropriate that different groups want to use this fresh start to live out social concepts that they couldn't live back on Earth. And to be left alone to do so. "What we need is equality without conformity" as Zeyk said.

That this won't work since it is still humans who settled on Mars is clear and I'm awaiting with a das feeling the infights and outward battles. The get together Art initiated is a great starting point, but I somehow have the feeling it won't work out the way he hopes.

Also the meshing of different traditions and philosophies is super exciting to witness. (And I never have heard of ultimogeniture before. There's a lot I learn). Somehow I feel myself gravitating towards Hiroko's esoterical/biological approach.

Another great idea is the different approaches to trade. KSR really, really did such a terrific job in imagining all those kind of possibilities and presenting them in a totally believable way.

Sax' condition tore my heart. To witness him struggling with expressing himself is so heartbreaking. It was so appropriate that his first small success came while seeing his lichens.

And to say nothing of the Medusa town. This piqued my curiosity. I want to know who did this and what it is about. (hide spoiler)]

[Jemppu]

@Gabi, I've yet to experience the greeting myself; there are certainly cultures which one can imagine having harder time adapting to it ^^'

Seriously; this book felt it had much less weaknesses than even the already brilliant first (dang, it *was* reasonable to hold back that 5-star rating after all - oh, well, they're both certainly worthy).

Sax (view spoiler)[- I was somewhat hoping we could've gotten a briefest of inner glimpse to their state of mind through the struggle, possible frustration or what have you for not being able to function outwardly as you do mentally, but it's understandable that could've affected the apparent severity of the experience (not to mention be a highly delicate subject to research and get right) (hide spoiler)].

Agreed on believability. Robinson's imaginations all seem convincing. The political machinations included. And even the borderline wondrous aspects - the planetary scale events, which in less capable fitted for the task hands (or more poetic?) would easily turn to fantastical prose, all seem real with the grounded approach - logically pleasing. I said this about the Green Mars novella, but it seems to apply to all of the trilogy's planetary exploration/terraforming: it's indeed like reading a science magazine article, speculating on future space expedition's progress.

[Amanda]

Finished part 6 and there was a lot I liked about it. (view spoiler)[I really enjoyed the description of Sabishii, both how the community developed and how Nirgal reacted to it. The journey to the various settlements to assemble the congress was enjoyable as well, letting us see the different ways that people have found to survive and make a home. (hide spoiler)]

[Gabi]

Amanda wrote: "Finished part 6 and there was a lot I liked about it. [spoilers removed]"

Yes, I totally enjoy the (view spoiler)[ development of a new society/ new societies on Mars. The approaches as different as humans are. (hide spoiler)]

[Anthony]

Sorry for not posting on the thread more along the way. It was bananas weekend but I did manage to get some reading time in while I was sleeping at strange jet lag-induced hours.

At any rate, I just finished it and I loved it very much. This trilogy is so hugely ambitious, layering in so many complex ideas, and always rooting it to the actual, lived human experience. An amazing feat.

I would love to finally read Blue Mars this year, and would love to do so in a BR.

[Jemppu]

@Anthony, so great to hear it worked for the best the second time around. (Glad also to hear you survived the weekend ^^').

I'd love to join the BR for Blue Mars too, and indeed this year!

[Gabi]

Anthony wrote: "Sorry for not posting on the thread more along the way. It was bananas weekend but I did manage to get some reading time in while I was sleeping at strange jet lag-induced hours.

At any rate, I j..."

Understandable, Anthony. I'm glad the book worked better for you in the re-read.
There is chance for interaction with reading buddies when we move on to Blue Mars.

[Gabi]

Part 9 was the first time the book dragged for me. I started skimming pages in the first half, but then it came back full power with an exciting second half.

[Pat the Book Goblin]

Sorry guys. I was one of the ones all excited to read Red Mars but I got distracted. I hope to start the series with you all soon lol.

[Gabi]

Patrick wrote: "Sorry guys. I was one of the ones all excited to read Red Mars but I got distracted. I hope to start the series with you all soon lol."

Start away! There is always the possibility for necroposting if you read it later.

Vocabulary-question (again): does "Thisness" exist or is it made up?

[Jemppu]

Gabi wrote: "...Vocabulary-question (again): does "Thisness" exist or is it made up? ..."

Valid word.

Jump along, Patrick! There are others still reading Red Mars too ^^

[Amanda]

Absolutely blown away by the prose in part 8. Such a delight to read.

This is ending up being a frustrating read for me, moreso than Red Mars, because there have been sections that I really, really loved, that are so thoughtful or evocative in their concepts, but it's been inconsistent and has dragged for me in places as well.

So I keep shifting between "It's fine, just not for me..." and "Oh, but that was so good!" and ending up stuck in a weird place where I don't know what to think about it.