All the Light We Cannot See - General Discussion [No Spoilers] (November 2014)

[Violet]

Euphoria is another fascinating example of how the concept of commercial has changed. Commercially it’s a successful novel and yet it breaks many of the rules of what was once considered commercial storytelling. The story, for the most part, is told not shown. Ten years ago I can imagine an agent telling King to go back and rewrite the novel in the third person so she maximises all the dramatic tension inherent in the material. And yet that no longer bothers the vast majority of readers. Further evidence of the evolution in the tenets of commercial storytelling.

[Terry]

I think the agent has it spot-on and has more or less nailed my problems with this novel. I do agree that a plot-driven novel does not *necessarily* entail sacrificing character development, but I don't think Doerr has achieved this, and I think many people do still look for one or another, so when marketing books the concern is very valid.

For me, this novel in its prose and stylings, and in its early running, set me up to think 'here's a prose stylist, who's concerned with character -- I'm going to like this'. Consequently, I was very disappointed when the plot took over and it seemed that I could see that hand of the author moving the characters about to suit the plot, rather than realism and character driving what happened.

I don't really see 'head-hopping' as a necessarily a cheap trick. Traditionally frowned on, perhaps, but so are many many devices that have found feted use in literary fiction. Like any device, its effect depends on how it is used. Here, I think it is used to commercialise the product (I think Doerr has more or less said as much), and I do think it detracted from the story, serving to heighten the sense that the sequence of events was manipulated rather than played out as it would in real life. Is how it seemed to me.

Rather than romping back and forth with ease, for me Doerr (and for that matter Mitchell, at least in The Bone Clocks, although I do find All the Light substantially better than TBC) made the mistake of not really choosing which camp to be in, and therefore making a work that was not a great example of either. But then, I am personally much less comfortable than many with the plot-driven style of fiction anyway, so to me in particular, introducing this is always extremely fraught with the danger of 'polluting' what might otherwise have been a perfectly good character-driven story.

[Lily]

Okay, thanks for the tutorial, Violet and Terry! I feel as if I am getting a wonderful little "private" course (open to all, of course) that probably occurs somewhere in university courses or professional experience/training.

Now, I have a perhaps silly question. Is Tolstoy's War and Peace character driven or plot driven? (I happen to be listening to it, for the third time, right now, and feel as if I could make arguments for either case.)

(Am I correct to view Stoner as character-driven? I am trying to understand.)

[Violet]

War and Peace is the perfect example of how one doesn't and shouldn't preclude the other - though, from a commercial point of view, some might say the character building slows down the plot. What constitutes good plotting is probably no less subjective though than any other aspect of the novel so it's kind of difficult to describe a novel as either or (plot-driven or character-driven). I can understand terry's misgivings about All the Light - a similar criticism is often leveled at Mitchell. But i still think this agent is a bit retro in his categorisations - few are going to object to a novel being both character and plot driven I would have thought.

[Lily]

Violet wrote: "I'm writing my review today. I couldn't quite believe the bitchiness of the Guardian review! At the moment I'm trying to work out if Doerr somehow tricked me into loving this novel more than it des..."


http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014...

I presume this is the review to which you refer?

[Violet]

Yep. Doesn't it sound a bit bitter?

[Maureen]

Violet wrote: "Good question, Lily, especially as what’s commercial is in constant evolution. Once upon a time, as you mention in your post, the distinction could be classified perhaps as plot-driven vs characte..."

I appreciate your clear examples from the book of the blur into a commercial approach. Now I can see exactly what is meant by the difference between literary and commercial fiction. I have always recognized the obvious but this allows me to see the less obvious.

For this novel, which I loved, my next question is how much of this is Doerr how much of this is editorial suggestion with book selling in mind. I am not sure we will know this answer, but it is a question worth pondering.

[Violet]

Maureen, my experience working for an agent taught me that a lot of pressure is put on authors with a mind to making their books more commercially seductive, especially for authors of limited commercial success. This process begins with the editor at the agency and continues with the editor at the publishing house. Doerr, who wasn't very commercially successful before this novel, may have made changes to suit editorial misgivings. However as soon as an author is successful virtually no pressure is put on them.

[Lily]

Violet wrote: "...However as soon as an author is successful virtually no pressure is put on them...."

Violet, do you think this is true world wide, or that it may vary from country to country? (Somehow, I have a different impression of what flows from the Italian, German, Spanish, and French publishing houses than from the British and American ones, but I don't know enough to articulate the differences.)

[Violet]

I worked for a London agent, Lily so it's true of England. I very much doubt if Doerr was pressurised into making big changes though because he's a respected brand so to speak. First or second time authors though usually have a hard time with editors- more often with cuts than anything else. Books are a lot more expensive to print once you go over a certain page limit (I think it's 400) and profits are reduced by about 20% so you won't see a first novel of more than 400 pages very often.

[Kirsten]

My mom just told me this book has just won the Pulitzer Prize!

[Lily]

Violet wrote: "...Books are a lot more expensive to print once you go over a certain page limit (I think it's 400) and profits are reduced by about 20% so you won't see a first novel of more than 400 pages very often...."

[g] I'd be happy if that were true for later novels as well. I often feel as if I find as much author's ego and lack of editing/rewriting as good storytelling in the longer ones.

Kirsten -- here is the Pulitzer Prize site link:

http://www.pulitzer.org/awards/2015

I added it to our Book Chat a little while ago.

[Violet]

Couldn't agree more, Lily!
And hooray for the Pulitzer judges!

[Lily]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wor...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wor...

The questions that don't go away.

Another article: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/22/wor...

[LindaJ^]

Lily wrote: "http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wor...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wor......"

Having been to Auschweitz, I find it hard to understand how one can be a Holocast denyer - not that I needed to see Auschweitz to believe it happened.

[Raymunda]

Violet wrote: "I keep reading reviews saying it's great storytelling but not great literature"

I have not finished the book yet but I'm afraid I have to agree a little with that statement. I'm really enjoying the story , the writing is beautiful and the story has engaging elements of intrigue , but probably it will not contribute anything to the history of literature. But for me that is not a reason not to love this book.

In my opinion the greatness of this novel is about what makes us feel , and how it makes us see the world through different eyes, those of a blind girl. Have you noticed that the descriptions in the chapters about Marie are made through the senses of hearing and touch ? And yet we admire the visual beauty of the story?
I think that is an amazing achievement.

[Lily]

taide wrote: "...probably it will not contribute anything to the history of literature..."

What are the hallmarks one seeks? Not trained in the humanities, I must turn to those of you who are for some glimmers of understanding. (When we get to Smiley's work next month, I'll probably have more questions.)