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message 1: by Harry (new)

Harry Whitewolf | 1745 comments I'm guessing people are aware of the awful use of military drones in warfare, but do people know how much they are increasingly to be used by businesses and police departments, as well as commercially for individuals, in a plethora of ways, to the extent that in a few decades time, our skies could be filled with drones, flying about?

I don't know how much of an urgent issue it is in all countries, but it is in the U.S- and certainly here in the U.K. You can already buy plenty of drones with different capabilities (on Amazon!), and their future- and immediate usage- is currently being debated in parliament.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014...

But no one seems to be taking this seriously. And where it is mentioned, it's little debated, and propagandadly sold to us on its good points, such as 'personal security'. It's tucked away in mainstream media. They blur the reasons and purposes of drones, from entertainment, to speedy deliveries to intelligence spying.

I, for one, feel we've already gone overboard with cameras in society, and I certainly don't want to live in a world which really is fast becoming a Blade Runner landscape.

We've lost so much of the Earth. Now let's f*** around with our views of the sky.

Here's an extract from my piece called '1984 Reality' from the 'Price of a free media: George Orwell' thread in this group.

In just a few decades, CCTV was slowly introduced for 'our own safety', and any initial defiance against it soon waned, to the point where we're at today, where cameras are everywhere in cities, shops, parks, trains, buses... accompanied by the fact that we've also recently bought into the Selfie Age of taking and posting pictures everywhere, therefore increasing the common attitude towards all cameras. Privacy's gone in the blink of a Big Brother eye.
(And we rely on CCTV evidence, when it's so easily manipulated by The Elite, exactly Bourne-like.)

Not only that, but extremely worrying drones are coming your way soon! Already used by the military (which is another awful story- in that they're remotely controlled far away, like you're playing a video game- and they always kill too many civilians) the technology's there to make them with cameras, into disguised things like (as small as) insects. They'll be sold as personal security and 'jokey' snooping. And Amazon have already announced their swarms of flying drones that will deliver things to your doors within hours, if not minutes- yeah, man, everyone's gonna love it! And our skies will become more and more filled with familiar, isnt-technology-so-damn-good effing flying drones.

Amazon drones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le46ER...


message 2: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments there are going to be drones everywhere soon, I agree

Something came to me, while reading your post...This may be a stupid idea, but I'll voice it anyway - what if in future The People can use easily accessible drone technology to spy on Governments?

Could a Big Brother in reverse (Little Brother?) scenario be possible where we flip 1984 on its head and use technology to make governments' honest?

Or is this a naive notion?


message 3: by Harry (new)

Harry Whitewolf | 1745 comments I had exactly that same idea a few months ago! I even looked up how much one of those insects ones would be, but obviously was fully aware that if I started hovering a device above Westminster, it wouldn't be long before I was arrested.

Although the idea that we could spy on governments is a good one, it's naïve to think they haven't got it covered!


message 4: by Harry (new)

Harry Whitewolf | 1745 comments Little Brother! I like it!


message 5: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments Title: Little Brother usurps Big Brother

Plot: After years of easily overpowering his Little Bro, Big Brother gets lazy and takes his dominance for granted and gradually gets fat. Meanwhile, Little Brother trains hard and then one day, lo and behold, he overpowers Big Brother.

How to infuse drones into the storyline is the question...But I'm sure we can figure it out.


message 6: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments Harry wrote: "Although the idea that we could spy on governments is a good one, it's naïve to think they haven't got it covered!
..."


Okay, I think I've got one "they" may not have covered...Are you ready for it? Drum roll please...This is it: anonymous drones!
Just like the organization Anonymous, Little Brother's drones are all privately owned but anonymously owned.

Can Little Brother please win now? Surely it's time!


message 7: by Harry (new)

Harry Whitewolf | 1745 comments Sounds good. How about it's set in the East, so it could be called 'Big Brother's Little Brother's Big Trouble in Little China'?

Big and little... I had the thought the other day at how relative everything is to human size. i.e- how easy it would be for conspiratorial aliens to run the world if they were actually insect size and had their own cities and technologies that size here on the earth, or anywhere else in the universe...


message 8: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments Harry wrote: "I had the thought the other day at how relative everything is to human size. i.e- how easy it would be for conspiratorial aliens to run the world if they were actually insect size and had their own cities and technologies that size here on the earth, or anywhere else in the universe..."

Some quantum physicists have speculated such things.

The sequel to 1984 is set 40 years later and titled 2014: Little Brother's Revenge


message 9: by Harry (new)

Harry Whitewolf | 1745 comments The relative human size perception is brilliantly explored in Voltaire's Micromegas. Micromegas As well as Gulliver's Travels Gulliver's Travels, but it's only recently I started to think about the issue from an alien conspiracy point of view.

Anondrones. I like it.

Couldn't we just get the numbers and storm the Rothschilds and the Saxe-Coburgs instead?


message 10: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments Harry wrote: "Couldn't we just get the numbers and storm the Rothschilds and the Saxe-Coburgs instead?..."

"They got the guns / But we got the numbers / Gonna win, yeah / We're takin' over / Come on!" -Jim Morrison

That can be the theme song of Little Brother


message 11: by Harry (new)

Harry Whitewolf | 1745 comments I think we should add some new verses:

"Go get the c***s/That make us dumber/We're no such thing/We're takin' over..."


message 12: by Harry (new)

Harry Whitewolf | 1745 comments Forget about drones for surveillance and spying... They're being used for pornography now...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/...


message 13: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments Civilian drones now on the market: https://www.goodreads.com/videos/7687...

Pretty cool!


message 14: by Harry (new)

Harry Whitewolf | 1745 comments More worrying than cool, methinks.

Drones have arrived:

http://www.halsteadgazette.co.uk/news...


message 15: by Bill (new)

Bill Fairclough (theburlingtonfiles) | 32 comments Bearing in mind criminals and terrorists in particular have no regard for the law the consequences of the exponentially increasing availability of drones are that our way of life will change irrevocably.
For less than $5,000 a child could take down any aircraft landing or taking off while below a few thousand feet. Every country leader is at threat in his or her home. Courts trying terrorists or police stations holding them could be bombed. Any targeted person could be assassinated with the assassin well over a mile away.
What's more, all of these cowardly atrocities could be filmed and posted on YouTube. I could go on but I won't lest I inspire some nutcase to do something even worse that isn't obvious.
The impact of drones on society over the next few years is going to be ugly. If you think laws will help then may your god be with you. They might prevent accidents but you can't legislate against fanatical barbarians.
Paradoxically, many in ISIL or Al Qaeda would advocate that the inevitable future use of drones by terrorists was inspired by the CIA as all is fair in war even if the collateral is innocent people. The trouble is terrorists target innocent people.
So when you see that kid in a park playing with his or her new Xmas toy whizzing overhead these thoughts might wipe that smile away.


message 16: by [deleted user] (new)

Bill wrote: "Bearing in mind criminals and terrorists in particular have no regard for the law the consequences of the exponentially increasing availability of drones are that our way of life will change irrevo..."

Fascinating observations, Sir.
I know little about drones and you obviously know lots and lots about this technology.
I concur it's gonna be a big challenge for society.
HOWEVER, now that I've read your post, I'm much more worried about our governments using drones on and Big Brother issues than terrorists. Governments kill more people worldwide every day than terrorists ever will in your lifetime or mine.
Whenever I hear the word Terrorist I store it in the same part of my brain that the word lightning is stored in...Can lightning strike us? Yes. Is it likely? No.
Governments on the other hand pose a massive risk to their citizens. Some estimates say 265 Million people were killed at the hands of their own governments in the 20th Century alone...
Also, I have not come across anyone in a long, long time who believes ISIL or Al Qaeda are anything but constructs of Western Intelligence agencies...


message 17: by Lance, Group Founder (new)

Lance Morcan | 2791 comments Argon wrote: "Bill wrote: "Bearing in mind criminals and terrorists in particular have no regard for the law the consequences of the exponentially increasing availability of drones are that our way of life will..."

Argon and Bill - You both make excellent points albeit from different perspectives.


message 18: by Bill (new)

Bill Fairclough (theburlingtonfiles) | 32 comments Argon wrote: "Bill wrote: "Bearing in mind criminals and terrorists in particular have no regard for the law the consequences of the exponentially increasing availability of drones are that our way of life will..."

Better to be alive with Big Brother than dead without him.

As for lightning striking only once, in many parts of the world (such as the Middle East and North Africa) so far as terrorism is concerned that proverb would be dismissed as a joke. What's more, if the price of oil remains as it is today or lower then expect even more terrorism in oil producing countries including Nigeria in particular.

The fall in oil prices will only add fuel to the bush-fires of terror which are spreading much faster than Ebola ever did. Just go to Turkey for a holiday and watch the constant stream of entire families, uneducated men often with criminal backgrounds and mercenaries pouring across the Syrian border to prop up that purportedly religious caliphate of revulsion called the Islamic State.

The Islamic State may well have been an unintentional bi-product of Western policies but it was never their intent to create it. The democracies unleashed in the Arab Spring were what the West aspired for and failed to sustain. Those Middle Eastern countries targeted were and are being hijacked by Islamic militants.

It took centuries to establish democracies like the UK and the USA and even today they are not without flaws. In a not dissimilar fashion it will take much blood letting over a long time to bring peace to those who the West wants to follow in its footsteps ... if they ever do. And if they don't the casualties of war in the 20th Century may be sadly overshadowed.


message 19: by James, Group Founder (last edited Dec 28, 2014 12:31AM) (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments Bill wrote: "The Islamic State may well have been an unintentional bi-product of Western policies but it was never their intent to create it. ..."

How sure are you about that statement, Bill? How much independent and unbiased research have you conducted on this matter?
And by the way, I'm not disrespecting you or your impressive background in intelligence gathering, which I've noted and do not take lightly or underestimate. It's just that I've also observed that many in the intelligence community have their blinkers on and have a very narrow focus (which is as it should be to achieve desired outcomes). So whilst intel guys often have vast experience with terrorism issues, I'm also aware that most haven't had the time or inclination to study counter theories that contradict the supposed massive threat of terrorism.

Also, I am not saying you're wrong here. But there's a strong body of evidence that suggests terrorism is not the big threat to Western civilization (or indeed free peoples outside the West).

If you're interested in a fair discussion about all this with other members in this group (who I think have varying opinions on terrorism), you might like to consider looking at other posts in this group including this one I've just posted here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

As well as this post here on the tricky subject of how to define terrorism: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Evidence to suggest Al Qaeda was created in the West: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

This post lists media articles from the likes of the BBC questioning whether the Islamic State (IS/ISIS) is yet another invention of the West: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

And this one on the history of Government sponsored terrorism in Europe: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Former CIA agent Robert David Steele gives his opinion on the Boston bombing: https://www.goodreads.com/videos/7713...

And lastly I'd implore you to watch this video interview with ex-FBI employee (and member of this group) Sibel Edmonds talking about the War on Terror: https://www.goodreads.com/videos/7602...

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on these articles and when you get a spare moment.

Thanks,
James


message 20: by Bill (new)

Bill Fairclough (theburlingtonfiles) | 32 comments James - There is a lot there to digest and some of the points made are accepted by many and me. I had not expected a dissertation on the art or stupidity of espionage with a few references to conspiracy theories chucked in for good measure. As I see matters, there are always three sides to every coin - heads, tails and the rim!

For one, I try to Assume nothing, Believe nobody and Check everything and follow the ABC path (as referred to in my first attempt at writing - Beyond Enkription). In that "novel", as a youngster in 1974 quite frankly I didn't have a clue much of the time and interestingly enough with the benefit of hindsight I can now say emphatically that many of the intelligence agencies didn't have a clue either (eg as evidenced by the shock of the Smiling Buddha project or the extent of Philby's betrayal).

What you have to remember about intelligence agencies is that they are just a bunch of civil servants who do (or are meant to do) as they are told by their political masters. In addition, in democracies, the political masters usually change once or twice every decade. These civil servants are not the same as their assets or agents who do all the heavy lifting.

Anyway, after that diversion which partly answers one of your points, it's not easy to follow the ABC path particularly in the fog of disinformation created by intelligence agencies whether or not at war. I think that is one reason why too many ridiculous conspiracy theories exist like the proposition that the Boston bombing was some sort of silly drill which is about as likely as you seeing a nun in a bikini in Pyongyang.

As for Al Qaeda, the CIA were clearly supportive of Bin Laden many years before 9/11. Cheney and others admitted it. However, to suggest they intentionally allowed 9/11 or even orchestrated it can never be disproved but on analysis such concepts are quite frankly illogical or downright crazy even if they are difficult to disprove. Having been involved almost always behind the scenes in court cases disproving something that didn't happen is well nigh impossible.

As for intentionally allowing a caliphate to be spawned I also think that is illogical if not crazy. However, so in the eyes of many (including me at the time) was the disbanding of the Iraqi army in 2003 which left a vacuum to be exploited by all sorts of purportedly religious extremists and without which IS may not have been created (certainly in Iraq anyway). One interesting statistic is that since the Second World War followers of Islamic the faith have killed over 11 million Muslims mainly in the Middle East.

I am going to have to leave this fascinating discussion to go and work and sadly I don't have time to follow up all your links and won't be commenting more for a while. Going back to drones I stand by my comments just as I do all I have written ... but I am now just about sagacious enough to realise I could have had the wool pulled over my eyes just as much as many conspiracy theorists have except that they have been mainly pulling their own wool so to speak.

Nevertheless, I still wonder about where the wind came from to ruffle the Stars & Stripes and some of the other anomalies in certain photos of the first moon landing but that does not mean Neil Armstrong didn't land there and walk on the moon. Indeed, even the USSR (and thousands of astronomers all over the world) proved a man made object landed on and took off from the moon in July 1969 and many others have since. Returning to the origins of this discussion, one day drones may dispense with what might in the future have become conspiracy theories by being in the right place at the right time and controlled by independent observers.


message 21: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments Bill wrote: "James - There is a lot there to digest and some of the points made are accepted by many and me. I had not expected a dissertation on the art or stupidity of espionage with a few references to consp..."

Thanks for your balanced and fair reply, Bill.
I plan to read your novel Beyond Enkription: The Burlington Files: 1.
I suspect the truth about terrorism probably lies about half-way between what the most patriotic intelligence agents believe and what the most extreme conspiracy theorists believe.
But I definitely appreciate you sharing your wealth of experience on this issue.
And yes, the ABC path sounds like the best approach!
Thanks,
James


message 22: by Harry (new)

Harry Whitewolf | 1745 comments Bill wrote: "Bearing in mind criminals and terrorists in particular have no regard for the law the consequences of the exponentially increasing availability of drones are that our way of life will change irrevo..."

Well said Bill. Drones are worrying for a plethora of reasons, some of which you mention here. I actually find it disheartening that such a big topic- on something that will undoubtedly change the face of our world- is often not thought about by the average Joe. We have no debate. We just let the elite carry on...

Enough's enough. More passionate voices, please step up.


message 23: by Bill (new)

Bill Fairclough (theburlingtonfiles) | 32 comments James wrote: "Bill wrote: "James - There is a lot there to digest and some of the points made are accepted by many and me. I had not expected a dissertation on the art or stupidity of espionage with a few refer..."

James - I hope you enjoy Beyond Enkription as an unusual intellectual exercise at the very least. The series of novels was originally only written to form the basis for a series of films (cf http://www.theburlingtonfiles.org and http://www.fairesansdire.org). Later we decided to refine and publish the first novel to get some feedback. Where to send any feedback privately is being updated this coming week on http://www.theburlingtonfiles.org/pag.... Courtesy of what we have done in reality in the past I am sure you can understand we have to tread with care!


message 24: by Bill (new)

Bill Fairclough (theburlingtonfiles) | 32 comments Harry wrote: "Bill wrote: "Bearing in mind criminals and terrorists in particular have no regard for the law the consequences of the exponentially increasing availability of drones are that our way of life will..."

I am reasonably sure that when cars first started roaming the highways many reprobates thought they would be great getaway vehicles if chased by peelers on penny farthings. With over 2,000 sales a week forecast for 2015 in the USA alone "heaven" only knows what these flying cars are being bought for!


message 25: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments Bill wrote: "James - I hope you enjoy Beyond Enkription as an unusual intellectual exercise at the very least. The series of novels was originally only written to form the basis for a series of films (cf http://www.theburlingtonfiles.org and http://www.fairesansdire.org). Later we decided to refine and publish the first novel to get some feedback. Where to send any feedback privately is being updated this coming week on http://www.theburlingtonfiles.org/pag.... Courtesy of what we have done in reality in the past I am sure you can understand we have to tread with care! ..."

Thanks mate.


message 26: by Bill (last edited Dec 29, 2014 10:43PM) (new)

Bill Fairclough (theburlingtonfiles) | 32 comments Awesome Orson like so many literary royalty is just another person and in this case I would disagree with his comment. Horses are still horses but, inter alia, early automobiles spawned jeeps and tanks designed specifically for use in the desert. Also, he may have overlooked camels!

Reading about quotes from literary royalty sometimes reminds me of the X Factor - the supposed greats are often out-staged by the newcomers.


message 27: by Bill (new)

Bill Fairclough (theburlingtonfiles) | 32 comments I must admit your final sentence got me laughing. Who were the committee members? Llamas?


message 28: by Bill (new)

Bill Fairclough (theburlingtonfiles) | 32 comments You mean asses I can but assume.


message 29: by Bill (new)

Bill Fairclough (theburlingtonfiles) | 32 comments Over and out.


message 30: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments I actually just finished filming a movie in which we used drones (with camera inside) to capture images of the landscapes. High above, almost like a mini satellite image. Pretty cool.

So it's not all bad regarding drones.


message 31: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments It was the cinematographer's own drone. It's basically a filming drone.

I am still playing catch-up with this technology, but drones seem to have many uses.

I think they can be purchased for only a few hundred online and you can put a small camera inside and watch the footage live via the drone's remote control device which has a monitor on it.


message 32: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments Edward wrote: "Wow; sure beats the jumpy stuff you'd get shooting from a helicopter. ...... And if it crashes no big deal."

Due to strong winds the drone actually did crash a few times while we were filming in the canyon, but we managed to recover it each time and it flew again just fine. I think they are built the endure quite a few crashes. And you're right, the footage you get from them is quite smooth - we are using the footage from the drone for slow-motion inertions in the movie.


message 33: by Harry (new)

Harry Whitewolf | 1745 comments This is interesting, seeing as the authorities have no idea who it is that's been flying small drones over Paris for the last couple of nights:

From Yahoo! News:

"Unidentified drones flew over Paris for a second night in a row, police said Wednesday, in the latest mystery appearance of unmanned aircraft over the French capital at a time of high security.

The latest sightings follow a series of drone spottings at French atomic plants last year and, more recently over the presidential palace and a bay in Brittany that houses nuclear submarines.

Authorities have been left scratching their heads as they remain unable to catch any of the operators or determine whether the flyovers are the work of pranksters, tourists or something more malicious."

More: https://uk.news.yahoo.com/unidentifie...


message 34: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments Sorry, UFO Hunters: Area 51 Just Banned Hobby Drones -- http://www.ibtimes.com/sorry-ufo-hunt...


message 35: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments Cops Training Eagles to Take Down Drones -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdUUO...

Sometimes the way to beat sophisticated technologies is to go lo-fi? And use the animal kingdom!


message 36: by Harry (new)

Harry Whitewolf | 1745 comments James Morcan wrote: "Cops Training Eagles to Take Down Drones -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdUUO...

Sometimes the way to beat sophisticated technologies is to go lo-fi? And use the animal kingdom!"


Crazy! What next - training pigeons to decommission cluster bombs?


message 37: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments Harry wrote: "What next - training pigeons to decommission cluster bombs? ..."

Working on it already, mate...
Our patented "Underground Pigeons" are flying from Trafalgar Square to your home right now to intercept the MI5 drone that's hovering over your town...


message 38: by Oscar (new)

Oscar E. (oscarelion) | 5 comments I'm not a pilot and never had the chance to see how military UCAV work. They are supposed to be state-of-the-art unmanned flying vehicles, but we all figure them quite good at (always instrumental) landing, which is the most complex phase of any flight. Provided that, anything else looks like just a matter of control, but they are still managed remotely by human beings. The whole team (machine + people) is called UCAS for unmanned combat air system.
Now, a real drone is another story, because originally the word "drone" implied full AI, for Artificial Intelligence, capability.
Basically, the object sits idle there in front of you until you say (or type) "Go fly over X1Y1 coordinates, take some pics of the green wooden house, then reach X2Y2 coordinates, turn and come back."
The "thing" turns engines on, chooses the best route, speed and altitude to execute your commands and manages to avoid any surrounding objects and traffic while taking off.
Beware, X1Y1 or X2Y2 might be very far away from the starting point, even a thousand kilometers or miles, depending of the drone's operating range. Thus the "thing" will incur the risk to almost cross other vehicles routes, stumble onto tall objects or mountains, cope with adverse weather conditions or experience own malfunctionings.
From a military point of view things would get even worse. A bomber drone should clearly pinpoint its target, something even human pilots go wrong with sometimes. A fighter drone should be also able to identify friends, neutral vehicles and foes, and tear down the latter while avoiding their hits. How does that sound? Does any air dogfight movie scene come to your mind, with radar engagements and missiles going all around? Not a piece of cake, even with the so-called air superiority and all the tech networks behind it, because the enemy may feature similar capabilities.
Last but not least, both civilian and especially military drones shall use their AI within the boundaries of what is good for humans, or at least for friends.
The problem here is: what if their intelligence brings them to make different choices?


message 39: by James, Group Founder (last edited Oct 17, 2016 03:11AM) (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments Are there any acknowledged AI drones in the unclassified arena?


message 40: by Oscar (new)

Oscar E. (oscarelion) | 5 comments I never heard of a full AI drone


message 41: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments Drone Warfare: Killing By Remote Control

Drone Warfare is a comprehensive look at the growing menace of robotic warfare, with an extensive analysis of who is producing the drones, where they are being used, who “pilots” these unmanned planes, who are the victims and what are the legal and moral implications. In vivid, readable style, the book also looks at what activists, lawyers and scientists are doing to ground the drones, and ways to move forward.

In reality, writes Benjamin, the assassinations we are carrying out via drones will come back to haunt us when others start doing the same thing—to us.

Drone Warfare Killing By Remote Control by Medea Benjamin


message 42: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments "The Department of Defense has released remarkable footage showcasing a project aimed at creating a swarm of micro-drones that act autonomously. The video comes from a test of the concept which took place back in October when three jets released over 100 six-inch-long UAVs known as Perdix drones. Incredibly, the tiny flying devices are not individually operated and, instead, work together collectively in a fashion akin to insects in nature." http://www.coasttocoastam.com/article...


message 44: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments Passenger-carrying drone will soon hit skies https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/thi...


message 45: by Jonathon (new)

Jonathon Moore (jonathonraist) | 10 comments When I first started working with drones they were only a couple dozen. Within the year they grew to hundreds. I expect dones (by now) that are used has grown exponentially (as well as its uses). You can even get a degree in drone technology.

I can't say much with this but I will say the technology the military has makes what is in the civilian sector pretty much obsolete. Like layers of an onion, there is always the overt programs, then the covert programs, and then the black programs.

An interesting take on the potential damage of out of control drones is the episode "Hated in the Nation" by the Netflix series Black Mirror.


message 46: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments Jonathon wrote: "I can't say much with this but I will say the technology the military has makes what is in the civilian sector pretty much obsolete. Like layers of an onion, there is always the overt programs, then the covert programs, and then the black programs. ..."

Sounds logical.
Are you saying you've worked in the classified sector of the military?


message 47: by Jonathon (new)

Jonathon Moore (jonathonraist) | 10 comments Haha, you have a correct tacit assumption. Both - the classified sector of the military and civilian sectors.


message 48: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments Jonathon wrote: "Haha, you have a correct tacit assumption. Both - the classified sector of the military and civilian sectors."

Cool.


message 49: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments The Drone Memos: Targeted Killing, Secrecy, and the Law

he Drone Memos collects for the first time the legal and policy documents underlying the U.S. government’s deeply controversial practice of “targeted killing”—the extrajudicial killing of suspected terrorists and militants, typically using remotely piloted aircraft or “drones.” The documents—including the Presidential Policy Guidance that provides the framework for drone strikes today, Justice Department white papers addressing the assassination of an American citizen, and a highly classified legal memo that was published only after a landmark legal battle involving the ACLU, the New York Times, and the CIA—together constitute a remarkable effort to legitimize a practice that most human rights experts consider to be unlawful and that the United States has historically condemned.

In a lucid and provocative introduction, Jameel Jaffer, who led the ACLU legal team that secured the release of many of the documents, evaluates the “drone memos” in light of domestic and international law. He connects the documents’ legal abstractions to the real-world violence they allow, and makes the case that we are trading core principles of democracy and human rights for the illusion of security.

The Drone Memos Targeted Killing, Secrecy, and the Law by Jameel Jaffer


message 50: by James, Group Founder (new)

James Morcan | 11213 comments Cool concept, this book...

Drone World

Imagine a city with drones on each street, monitoring your every move. No crime goes unpunished. No criminal can escape. No place to hide. No one is ever alone. I live in the safest city in the world... until I tried to leave it.

Drone World by Jim Kochanoff


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