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The Nonesuch Oct 2019 Group Read Chapters 1-10
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Teresa
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Oct 05, 2019 04:12PM
That's what I'm doing at the moment Critterbee. Well trying to, my mind seems to be all over the place. I have a kidney infection and tonsillitis. I never do things by halves!!! I've been thrown on the sofa all day rewatching the Downton Abbey series.
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Don't say Tom Brady and ancient in the same sentence if you wish to live! The men around here live and breathe all things Tom Brady and THINK he's a modern-day Nonesuch! Waldo is 36 so that's not so far off Brady's 42. I like Patience and I doubt she's coloring her hair. Her father is the rector so that would be a no-no. Ladies of easy virtue colored their hair with henna and I expect there were rinses sold to make one's dirty blond hair lighter and more golden. One just didn't talk about it. Wikipedia says "some of the most well known plant-based dyes are henna (Lawsonia inermis), indigo, Cassia obovata, senna, turmeric and amla. Others include katam (buxus dioica), black walnut hulls, red ochre and leeks. In the 1661 book Eighteen Books of the Secrets of Art & Nature, various methods of coloring hair black, gold, green, red, yellow, and white are explained. " Wiki says synthetic dyes were invented in the 1860s and L'Oreal started in 1907.
Ah! I knew that black walnuts had to have been used, because they color whatever they touch!!
I think Jenny was joking--just pointing out a discrepancy in the text, Heyer being careless again.
Nonononononono, Heyer could make no mistakes! (And absolutely no reference is allowed to (view spoiler) )
Re walnuts, I seem to recall somewhere that Europeans could use walnut juice to 'tan' their skin if they wanted to pass as Asians. (Which some British spies did in India/Aghanistan during the Raj I think - I think it comes into Kipling's Kim??)
Teresa wrote: "That's what I'm doing at the moment Critterbee. Well trying to, my mind seems to be all over the place. I have a kidney infection and tonsillitis. I never do things by halves!!! I've been thrown on..."I am sorry you're not feeling well, Teresa, but at least you have Downton Abbey to amuse you. I rewatched a few episodes from the first season after I saw the film--quite a different experience when you know what happens to all of the characters.
After a slow start, I've finally gotten into this book. I like the large cast of characters and, like Abigail, am enjoying Heyer's depiction of country society. Waldo's uncomplicated admiration for Ancilla is refreshing after (view spoiler).
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Surely their sisters, if nothing else, would have warned them that Tiffany, to use the modern vernacular, was a B of the first order!"Well, Tiffany had been away at school - and I suspect many a young man, thrown off balance by the sight of a gorgeous young woman, wouldn't be particularly receptive to his sister's character analysis of the apparent paragon! And of course, some young women - tend to envy and idolize the local Queen Bee, especially if they're all young. They might not be better judges of character than their besotted brothers.
Yes, I suspect the young men wouldn't really care if Tiffany was a right little madam! I'm not sure all their sisters would be impressed though, whether from virtue (like Patience), or from just being able to see right through Tiffany.Perosonally, I've never really understood about 'mean girls', as in, how they held sway, but maybe I was just lucky not to have such a nasty clique or Queen B at my school.
Uh oh Tiffany has set out to ensnare Julian and he's falling for it. He seems like a nice young man and doesn't deserve Tiffany. Waldo is a bit concerned. He can see right through Tiffany. She's just awful! It's unfortunate that Waldo condemns Mrs. Underhill as "vulgar." I don't think she's anything of the sort. She seems quite nice - too nice to handle Tiffany. Patience Chartley has class, apparently. Julian seems partly inclined to fall in love with her too. His Mama would prefer a nice girl like Patience than Terrible Tiffany!I didn't get too far into the book yet - partway through Chapter 5.
I suspect Waldo won't have met anyone like Mrs Underhill socially before. In London, the cits (ie, new rich!) would have not been in Mayfair (where the 'true toffs' hung out!), but in Yorkshire, so close to Leeds, there must have been more mingling between the 'old rich' (land based) and the 'new rich' (making their money in trade or manufacturing).It must have been a bit of an uneasy mixing in many ways, with the 'old rich' cautious about letting in to their ranks and social circle those who were new money.
I suspect those with new money had to be cautious about how they behaved in order to gain admittance to the old money circles. It would not have been a given at all.
Mrs Underhill is clearly a decent and kindly person, but at one point Waldo says he can't be comfortable that Ancilla (who has 'class') (ie, comes from old money ....though clearly there isn't much of that left in her family!), works for a woman who would be more suited to be her housekeeper than her employer!
The British class system is very insidious, and pretty much all powerful, even to this day! Folk may be polite', but I suspect most Brits instantly 'place' everyone they meet on some form of class 'ladder'. It isn't to condemn someone who is lower (or higher), simply to know where on the ladder they are!
It's amazing that Brady can still cope with NFL, given the youthful vigour of most of the players!!! (apart from the fat guys whom, I think, are there simply to block everyone else??).Still he'll have to retire at some point!!! He's definitely a legend! (He must be, or else why should I have heard of him!!!!!)
I guess he'll never play for another team....that would be sacrilege indeed I suspect. Could get him lynched! :)
Beth-In-UK wrote: The British class system is very insidious, and pretty much all powerful, even to this day! Folk may be polite', but I suspect most Brits instantly 'place' everyone they meet on some form of class 'ladder'. It isn't to condemn someone who is lower (or higher), simply to know where on the ladder they are!Some years back a British friend of mine visited the U.S. for a while and said that she found it disconcerting that the class markers she was used to seeing were just not there. This is not to say that there is no class system or class markers in U.S. society, but they were different enough that she didn't know the code.
Mod
And I suspect the 'angelically fair' is using fair as 'beautiful'?
Either that, or she's been dunking her hair in a bucket..."
Yes, she was arranging her hair - I just quoted that to give the context; but the 'angelically fair' was in contrast to Miss Colebatch as a redhead, so must have been talking about her hair.
There are a few older ladies in the books who clearly use something out of a bottle: the Fancots' mother (appropriately enough in False Colours) says indignantly something like "It's not dyeing one's hair merely to refresh it when the colour begins to fade a little!" and there's at least one other described as having 'brassy curls". But of course Patience hasn't done anything of the sort, I was just poking a bit of fun at GH's lapse of memory.
Jenny, yes, then if Patience's colouring was being contrasted with Miss Colebatch, it must have been referring to her hair colour, not her beauty as such. But could GH really make such mistakes? Oh, surely, surely not!!!!! :) (I wonder what she was like with sub-editors? I bet she was a scary author to presume to 'correct' in any way!!!!!)As for Lady D in FC (yes, very appropriately named!), how like her to protest she isn't dyeing her hair at all. I'm sure that's all too common even now!!! (Mea culpa, but I used to cover up 'first grey' by dyeing my hair purplish....that way I could say I was simply 'colouring' my hair, as if I were 'bored' of being a dull brown, rather than furiously disguising signs of middle age!!!!)
Doesn't the heroine of Lady of Quality (I forget her name) deplore having such 'golden' hair, and, I think, refers to it as 'flashy'?
I don't know what was fashionable in Regency times - was it blonde or brunette? I think redheads always had difficulty, not least because of the preponderance to freckles, and I know GH often cites I think, pineapple water (??) for banishing freckles in maidens who are cursed with them!
Margaret - that's it - it's knowing 'the code' for wherever you are. I remember once a French person telling me that saying 'Bon Appetit' before a meal was NOT used 'in the best houses'!! Not something a mere foreigner could possibly guess at! Over here, it is most definitely 'accent' first and foremost that places people on the class ladder. If one speaks like someone out of the East End, then however 'refined' one might be, one is NOT 'out of the top drawer'....
There are loads of rather nasty and snide euphemisms (like 'not out of the top drawer') in the UK vernacular to 'place' people and effectively 'put them down'.
In the last decade or so, the term 'chav' has emerged (not sure where, some say it is a form of Romany)(and as for 'gypsies' there are even MORE put downs about them than anyone else I think).
'Chav' is now pretty universal in the UK to mean 'common as muck' ('common' was prevalent as a social put down in the last century, ususally accompanied by a dismissive 'sniff' and a raising of the eyebrows!)
Another one, now, is 'the tattooed classes'......though that is a bit 'age-related' maybe, as even some young royals have them. (Big mistake - common as muck, tattoos, and that's all there is to it) (Sniff!!!!!) (Besides, the real problem is that they are going to look ghastly when skin ages and wrinkles - yuk, yuk, yuk!)
So, what are the class signfiers in the US 'code'?? (I can remember reading a novel set, I think, in the 1930s in the USA, and a rather posh East Coast male character being dismayed to discover the girl he was keen on had an Italian surname.....) (today, would that change to Hispanic?)
(To our credit in the UK, I think it fair to say that ethnic background is NOT a class signifier of itself - providing someone speaks received pronunciation, ie, BBC English, it really doesn't matter what your ethnicity is - accent trumps all!)
(Slightly sideways, re Hispanic/Class etc etc, there's a priceless line in Maid in Manhattan where Ralph Fienne's PR guy affirms to the press, once Ralph and Jenny-from-the-block are an item, that of course Ralph is fine with the Hispanic community 'because he speaks Latin'!!!! :) )
I sort of assume (??) that in the USA, the general theme was that whoever was 'last off the boat' re immigration was considered 'lower' than the previous lot off the boat? Maybe that's too simplistic.Plus, of course, there is the 'rural hick' aspect as well - hillbilly in the US?? Over here it is 'yokel' for someone from deep in the uncouth countryside!
It's a sort of depressing truth about humanity that we all seem to try and categorise each other in some insulting and usually unfair way, whoever we are, and whenever, and wherever.
Perhaps the one GOOD thing about modern times is that at least we no longer believe that people are 'born to be lowly', and that everyone can, with education and enculturisation, 'make good'.
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Karlynne, I agree - and when Waldo, in reported speech, says 'he would have thought Tiffany's artlessness amusing ' (if Julian hadn't been her target), I would say there is a missing word there......."Yes, it needs to be oxymoronic like "studied innocence"!
I'm finished with Chapter 6. Waldo seems to be coming around to the Underhills in spite of their new money. Mrs. Underhill isn't very bright and doesn't know how to manage Tiffany but she's hospitable and kind. Waldo knows noblesse oblige and is good with the young people in the neighborhood who idolize him. I really like Ralph Colbatch and feel sorry for him that his father doesn't understand his passion for his studies. I hope he's not the eldest son!The ill-fated expedition to Knaresborough shows Tiffany's true colors. Julian seems to be moving towards feeling Tiffany sure is beautiful to look at but he'd rather hang out with Patience. He's young yet and has a few years to go before marriage.
Sir Waldo on the other hand... he's piqued that Ancilla doesn't like him and wants to make her like him but it seems he's more interested than that. He takes an interest in her family and learns all their names pretty early on. Even Mrs. Underhill can see how he looks at Ancilla. Ancilla, being an intelligent woman, overthinks everything. I think she would be a librarian today. She thinks like me and some of my favorite librarian literary heroines. She is, of course, madly in love with him already but I do think she's right to be cautious. How much does she know about him truly? She doesn't yet know about the orphans so he isn't ready to open up to her. I don't think he knows he's in love yet.
Class is different here in the U.S. and now there aren't many left of the old monied classes. There are some Vanderbilts left but they were new money too. Heyer's Regency people wouldn't look twice at Commodore Cornelius Vanderbilt. As an American I do find it hard to understand why they won't socialize with the man who goes to his manufactury every day! Here in America he would be considered elite and hard-working - a good guy to know. Everyone in New England had a job even if it was just looking after the family's shipping interests or in politics, law or the church. We were more industrious in the north. In the South it was more like England with the large scale plantations and class system.
The people with money I know live on the beach and have exclusive private deeded beach rights and woe betide any member of the public who wanders onto their beach. You can tell who has money by the way they dress and the type of car they drive and if they send their kids to private school - and which school, if they have a nanny vs. a babysitter or daycare. A mom shows up to chaperone her child's field trip in an SUV carrying a designer handbag and wearing designer sunglasses and that's a clue that they have money. School lunches apparently also indicate money. Kids who bring prepared foods from Whole Foods and the other high-end groceries are obviously much better off than kids who have to get free or reduced school lunch. (I'm learning a lot from a co-worker who comes from a large middle class family. Whenever she says something is bourgeoisie ("boozhy") I know she's saying "wow my family could never ever have afforded that so in my view they must be rich." My family is in a higher socioeconomic bracket.)
Here in the U.S. I think race matters a LOT more than where you or your ancestors came from and how long ago. Read the news and it will answer your questions about class, race and immigration.
I'm not in the US, I'm in Canada, and I'm fascinated by the idea of class. In theory, there isn't a class system - just about everyone says (and believes, I'm sure) that they're middle class. I am speaking only for my own regions, of course. It's considered really bad manners to act like you're richer than average or better educated than average - and yet, some people are, and others can spot that. I remember how surprised a friend was when someone in a group working on a charity project referred to her as "one of those Society ladies"! She considered herself middle class - entire family had post-secondary education and nice professional-type jobs. I'd bet any money the other woman might not have finished high school, and she and her family made ends meet with a series of insecure and low-income jobs. But she'd still think she's middle class, sort of - just not a society lady! Accent is much less of a marker locally than it used to be - and even when I was a girl I'd have gotten in serious trouble at home if I said anything about a rural accent being a sign of low class. Some people thought so - but a lot of people in my area had an accent, including some of my relatives, and you just never, but never, were rude to some respected elderly member of the community just because they spoke with a non-standard accent and were poor with little formal education. There are cues. It amuses me sometimes how easy it is for me to be taken as working poor, if not on social assistance - all I have to do is wear my comfortable clothing and let it be known (or seen) that I ride the bus. At the other extreme, I think I miss some cues. As I said, it's not done to put on a show, and also I don't know the expensive styles. I'm reasonably sure that some people I know are richer than I am, but of course it's none of my business just how much richer they are!
It's hard for me to see class distinctions in the U.S. anywhere but on the news (which I don't watch - ha!). It may be more of a judgy thing in rural America, where I've lived most of my life, as in judging someone for speaking poorly or beating their kids or driving drunk. But, since those kinds of things are generally dealt with in a case-by-case situation, it's not relevant to class or money. Maybe it's just that we, the average Joes who live in fly-over states, don't come into contact with those who have bazillions or have a social cachet of some kind. Do they exist? Maybe, but I've never met them - or Bigfoot, either...
Education plays a role, but ... I remember, before we got married, my husband and I were filling out some sort of questionnaire supposed to be helpful for prospective spouses. Some of the questions were about our perceptions of each other's family, and he checked the box that said "I see your parents as better educated than my parents".Well, in a way that was true. My dad was a clergyman and my mom was an English teacher before she married, and they were both college-educated. But my reaction was, "Yes, but... his parents still fall into the category of 'the kind of people my parents would have grown up with.' They would have lived in the same neighborhoods, gone to the same schools up until college age." And they were all white Midwesterners.
It's complicated.
There used to be more defined classes in the USA, but since the 1970s they have been less noticeable and more porous. The old "aristocracy" was more about family heritage (being here before the Revolution a must) and tradition than it was about money--it was frequent for the heritage folks to look down on people much more wealthy than themselves as being "nouveau."What changed? I think a combination of more women entering the workplace and elite educational institutions opening up to more people of varied economic and geographical backgrounds. Also, the distinctive speech patterns of the old elite have largely been abandoned (think of the way Katharine Hepburn spoke), so it's harder to point them out in a crowd. They were also a more distinctive group when the East Coast dominated American economic and cultural life, which is less the case now.
I agree with Cheryl saying that many people consider themselves middle class, and agree with Karlyne about rural USA being less class judgy (at least in my experience). In the southern US, I was more aware of people being snooty about the high school they attend or where they live in town. And what your after school activities are - working part time at a fast food restaurant vs going skeet shooting, for example.
Growing up in a military family, rank was very important, as in you knew the rank of the parent before you met the children, and rank often decides your friends. That was a very strict social structure, but I am not sure if that has changed.
Definitely complicated!!!! A multi-dimensional matrix of 'origins' (who your parents were), accent, educational level, financial status etc etc. Picking up this point...."As an American I do find it hard to understand why they won't socialize with the man who goes to his manufactury every day! Here in America he would be considered elite and hard-working - a good guy to know." .....
from an (old fashioned) British point of view, the fact that he WORKS is what labels him as 'lower' than Sir Waldo etc. The whole point of being upper class is that one didn't work! One didn't need to....one owned land, and collected the rents from the tenant farmers, and then one also had money invested in respectable things like government bonds etc. Fundamentally, one lived off capital - one did not EARN money, let alone MAKE it!!! Goodness me no! How VERY infra dig!!!!
I think the USA was founded very much on the Protestant Work Ethic, at least in New England, and work was 'virtuous' in a way that it wasn't in England. Except that there was, of course, amongst the 'sub-landed' class, many of whom were not Church of England, but Dissenters (such as those who emigrated to the USA of course) (ie, non-Anglican Protestants), who actually fuelled the mercantile and industrial revolutions of the 17th and 18th and 19th centuries. They regarded the 'idle rich' (ie, the landed classes) as vain and frivolous. (And of course they were right to do so in many, many respects - think of Laurie in the Nonesuch, wastes his time sauntering around as a wannabe Bond Street Beau etc etc)
It's a good point that the 'South' in the USA was far more like the English 'idle' landed gentry than the hardworking industrious New Englanders, recreating the same 'owner/serf' economic relations as prevailed in Europe (in an even worse way of course, because of actual slavery, rather than 'mere' poverty) (ie, that the peasants in Europe were 'free' to walk off the land if they wanted, but stayed because of economic necessity etc etc).
I agree that 'these days' absolutely 'everyone' is 'middle class'.....even if, economically, they aren't. That is 'good' in a way, but it's also 'bad' in that it deliberately obscures the very concept of a 'working class'. These days, the 'working class' have become 'chavs', but then, of course, they don't really have any mass economic power any more, because society really can 'do without them' to a very large extent, because the UK is 'post-industrial'.Some sink into the 'underclass' of the morass of benefits dependency and unemployment, and some go in the other direction into the 'lower middle class'.
I suspect, if push came to shove, and what remains of the British Working Class 'disappeared' (or emigrated!), nothing that bad would happen to the British economy at all, because the 'working class' has become economically redundant?? (If anything, it has sunk into being a 'service class' ...the Uber taxi drivers and the middle-class-professional women's nannies and cleaners, and the Deliveroo drivers, etc....quite, quite shameful that the middle class now expects other human beings to do these menial and low-paid jobs for them)
It's also obscured by the obsession with 'identify politics' where what ethnicity and sexuality you are counts for far more these days than what economic role you play in society.
Again, that said, the whole 'identify politics' obsession could be a way that the 'ruling classes' (ie, those who 'control capital') are happy to divert attention away from the way they are benefiting hugely from 'neo-conservatism' and marginalising what is left of the 'working class'!!! I'm a huge critic of the obsession with identity politics, as personally I think 'class' trumps 'ethnicity or gender' every time, as both of those are merely surrogates (or even distractions!) for the former. 'It's the economy stupid' really is the underlying most important factor in society. It's why the issue of immigration is so fraught - it's deliberately viewed through the lens of identity politics, which then makes folk feel guilty for objecting to it, in order to obscure the economic function of immigration (which is to increase the pool of labour and keep wages down!!!!)
However, I'm getting too political, and had better shut up!
(All the same, it's interesting that the very issues raised by a novel set two hundred years ago still resonate today.....and rather depressing too, alas.)
No matter what we think or what we're told to think, this equation is still true today: Ruling Class equals Money.
As in, the rulers are always rich! (I seem to remember from my youth reading one of those 'How to Succeed in Business' books, and the author was very keen to stress that it was far more important, in corporate life, to strive for promotion and power, as once you had that, the money would come anyway!)
Beth-In-UK wrote: "As in, the rulers are always rich! (I seem to remember from my youth reading one of those 'How to Succeed in Business' books, and the author was very keen to stress that it was far more important, ..."Exactly!
In the UK, officially, the Prime Minister's salary is relatively modest (ie, by the standards at that level of society) as it is something like £150,000. (A lot of public sector department bosses are on loads more!)Some PMs do live 'modestly', ie, when they leave office/politics, but for example, Tony Blair is, I think, the richest ex-PM of all. He's made a bundle since leaving No. 10!
That said, the likes of Boris Johnson, not to mention David Cameron, have 'family money' to begin with.
I seem to remember that Ronald Reagan was the first US President not to have been 'born with money'.....but I can't think that is true, after all, wasn't Lincoln 'just a country lawyer' etc etc, so maybe the RR aspect is only in modern times?
Tying the money issue back into The Nonesuch, I think someone a few days ago worked out that Ancilla's salary of £150 per annum is equivalent to a bit more than £8000.That sum is what a single/widowed person gets here as their state pension! And it doesn't come with board and lodging either!
Lincoln was also famously born in a log cabin, so no -- he wasn't born to money.More recently but still pre-Reagan, one of the reasons the presidential pension was established was how little Harry Truman had to live on after leaving office. He was able to retire to the family home in Ohio, so he had somewhere to live, but...
I think it's cute how the Rector approves of the waltz! He seems to be romantic at heart and very much in love with his wife. Now we know why Patience is the way she is. Her mother has good "breeding" and her parents love each other. She contrasts sharply with Tiffany, a girl no one wants with a rotten personality. I can't help but feel a tiny but sorry for Tiffany. It's funny how the Rector holds Tiffany up to his wife. If Tiffany is going to waltz then Patience had better waltz too!Ronald Reagan wasn't the first president born to money by any means! The exception is presidents born without money.
List of presidents by net worth
I think that most of the money American presidents have comes from very lucrative side-deals, like books, speaking engagements, endorsements, etc. There's a saying that goes something like, "If you're not rich when you become President, you will be when you leave." However, by just about any standards, all of the candidates in the last few decades have been wealthy!
QNPoohBear wrote: "I think it's cute how the Rector approves of the waltz! He seems to be romantic at heart and very much in love with his wife. Now we know why Patience is the way she is. Her mother has good "breedi..."What a great site for some perspective; it really does show just how wealthy the ruling class is!
And I agree that the Chartleys are the kind of parents anybody would be lucky to have.
Here in Ireland when Ministers of the government give up their jobs or are ousted for any reason they get a huge pension. It maddens people here because most of them are useless any way and they make a fortune afterwards with speaking engagements (even those who couldn't say anything useful when in power) and their nearly better off than they were when in power. It's all corrupt.
QNPoohBear wrote: "I think it's cute how the Rector approves of the waltz! He seems to be romantic at heart and very much in love with his wife. Now we know why Patience is the way she is. Her mother has good "breedi..."I do believe it is my favorite scene of the book - so sweet!
Critterbee❇ wrote: "QNPoohBear wrote: "I think it's cute how the Rector approves of the waltz! He seems to be romantic at heart and very much in love with his wife. Now we know why Patience is the way she is. Her moth..."yes, I could agree with this, it's very sweet <3.
Rector and Mrs. Chartley are one of my favorite older couples. They seem devoted to each other and their children, indulgent enough but not to the point of spoiling rotten. I think Heyer is trying to show the good breeding of these people in contrast to Tiffany's "mushroom" family and the difference between the girls is because of their upbringing. Mrs. Underhill is kind but she spoils Courtenay, basically ignores Charlotte and can't control Tiffany. She's not a woman of sense but of sensibility.
Personally, I can never understand why anyone would pay to hear what an ex-PM/President has to say! It was bad enough when they were in office and spouting off 'for free'! :) :) :)Interesting about Truman and his pension - here in the UK, there is a sorry tale about how Harold Wilson, who was a Labour Party PM, and not from a wealthy background (middle class, I believe) (ie, no vast treasure chest of family money anywhere), went to the Queen at Buckingham Palace to resign (I think he handed over to his deputy in a kind of 'I've had enough!' sort of way)(he later, like Reagan, got dementia, so perhaps it was starting to affect him??). He was driven to the palace in the official Prime Ministerial limo, from No. 10, but when he'd handed in his resignation officially to the Queen, and she'd said goodbye (and hopefully not good riddance ..... he was, as the Tories always called him 'a socialist'....)(to which the real socialists always said 'we wish'!!!!)(leftist politics in the UK are incredibly schismatic!)(as we are seeing now with Corbyn etc).....
Anyway, as he left the Palace he looked for the official limo....and it had been driven back to No. 10. Wilson was no longer PM, just an ordinary citizen again.....he had to hail a taxi to get him away from the Palace. A sobering lesson....
There's an apposite quote from Shakespeare in Antony and Cleopatra, after they've lost their critical battle of Actium against Octavian, and Antony's troops are deserting him....
"Authority melts from me....."
I think all elected politicians find it very hard to 'lose power'....which presumably is why so many go on all these lucrative speaking engagements etc, and try to become 'powers behind the scenes' etc etc, and keep pulling strings and so on. Few, I think, in the end 'go gracefully'....
(As an aside, one of the 'fun' things that would, I think, have happened had Hilary Clinton won, was to have a ringside seat to see just what dear old Bill would have got up to as First Gentleman....!)(though I suspect the word 'Gentleman' would not have been very apt?!!!!) (Would he have been received at Almacks, I wonder??!)
Still on the 'aside' of politicians/power/money, there is, I believe, a tale from the days of the English Civil War in the 17thC, when Cromwell was berating one of the government ministers for 'profiteering'....to which the minister tartly replied:'Sir, if one is not to profit from holding office, what is the point of holding office at all, pray!'
At least he was honest about it!
Teresa, one of my absolute 'contempts' for politicians, or those who have 'political influence' such as Trade Union bosses, is when someone 'leftie' who purports to be striving to better the lot of the 'poor' etc etc, not just makes money themselves (thank you very much!), but, in the case of a few Labour MPs and Union bosses, they live in Council Houses! They 'pretend' it's so they can 'identify' with their constituents, but the actual outcome is that they (on huge salaries comparatively) pay VERY little rent....and, worse, occupy a council house that is in incredibly short supply and thus deprive and actual 'deserving occupant' from having it! Absolutely and totally despicable to my mind!
"Now we know why Patience is the way she is. Her mother has good "breeding" and her parents love each other. She contrasts sharply with Tiffany, a girl no one wants with a rotten personality. I can't help but feel a tiny but sorry for Tiffany. It's funny how the Rector holds Tiffany up to his wife. If Tiffany is going to waltz then Patience had better waltz too!"I think this is very true....maybe if Tiffany had been brought up by the Chartleys, then despite her beauty and fortune, she might have been a nicer, better person.....
I rather like the Rector not just for seeing no 'sin' in waltzing (in appropriate circumstances), but also for being sufficiently protective of his daughter to not want her 'outshone' by Tiffany. A very fatherly touch. :)
Interesting to look back on Julian's first impressions of the neighborhood society: He thinks the "most striking" of the girls (apart from Tiffany, of course) is LIzzie Colebatch, aka the "redheaded dasher" -- 'but for my part, I prefer Miss Chartley's style --and her parents! No pretensions there, but -- I don't know how to express it!'
'A touch of quality?' suggested Sir Waldo.
'Ay, that's it!' agreed Julian.
Rosina wrote: "I also have an audio book, with this rather worrying cover"Me too. Worst cover ever! That is not Waldo on the cover. I don't know who he is but he needs to get back to his own book.
Amy wrote: "Rosina wrote: "I also have an audio book, with this rather worrying cover"Me too. Worst cover ever! That is not Waldo on the cover. I don't know who he is but he needs to get back to his own book."
I have an old (and battered) paperback book, but also have the audio version which I have listened to this time. I'm not keen on the narrator of this one (but better than the dreadful versions of The Black Moth and Powder and Patch that audible still keep recommending )
Mod
It doesn't necessarily hold true in the GH world, though, does it? There's a real problem for the upper classes who haven't got money, because they are severely limited as to the socially acceptable ways they can acquire it.
For a woman it's either marriage (in itself difficult without money) or, if the worst comes to the worst, governess. When somebody like Kate Malvern (Cousin Kate), who isn't qualified to teach any but the youngest children, contemplates becoming a lady's maid or a housekeeper, those who care about her are horrified and regard it as unthinkable; Anthea Darracott (Unknown Ajax) only contemplates going into the dressmaking business with her mother as a joke.
Even a man has only the choice of a narrow range of professions - law, church, army, navy, civil/ diplomatic service, parliament - and for any of those he needs friends with 'interest' if he's going to advance beyond the lowest levels or even get a job at all. Laurie's difficulty in setting up as a horse trader (apart from the initial capital!) is that he can't openly run a business but will have to rely on someone wanting to buy a horse they 'just happen' to see him riding.
Sometimes people had to choose between remaining in the ruling class and having money!
Georgette Heyer Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
The Secret Garden (other topics)The Black Moth (other topics)
Powder and Patch (other topics)
Arabella (other topics)
The Nonesuch (other topics)
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