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The Nonesuch Oct 2019 Group Read Chapters 1-10
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Beth-In-UK
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Oct 01, 2019 03:37AM
A 'compare and contrast' between Tiffany and Laurence would be instructive......!
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Beth-In-UK wrote: "I get the feeling GH had fun creating a character that no one could possibly like or have a good word for! "I think that Tiffany lifts this book into memorableness, where Waldo and Ancilla fail to stand out from the crowd. She might be obnoxious, but at least she's interesting!
Rosina wrote: "She might be obnoxious, but at least she's interesting!"As a character, not as a person in real life.
Just got started. I really admire the way GH used Chapter 1 to show us the intricate relationships between the main male characters. And I appreciate that doting mama Lady Lindreth is presented as someone with a good store of common sense when it comes to handling her son Julian.
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Elza, in England those books are called Where's Wally! (Maybe Wally is indeed the short form of Waldo - but in the English vernacular it also means 'idiot'....as in 'Don't be a total wally you nitw..."Yes, I think Wally and Waldo are really not heroic names, are they? Unfortunate choice either way for such an attractive character, I’ve always felt.
Beth-In-UK wrote: "is anyone else seeing a similarity between Julian and (hope I've remembered how to do the spoiler!)"Beth-In-UK your spoiler is empty, we need to know who Julian is similar to!
and I always thought it was pronounced "nun such"
Beth-In-UK wrote: "(As an aside, we in the UK have a similar issue with your name Randy....absolutely NO boy over here would be called Randy....it's an adjective meaning, excuse my language (!), er ,'up for it' in a ..."Ok, so Waldo and Wally don’t seem fitting for our hero, but Randy would be worse!
I thought the first meeting between Ancilla and Waldo was kind of dull when I first read the book - when I was young! now, I find it sweet. The share some gentle laughter right away and we can tell they are both kind people by how gentle they are with Charlotte.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it was a meeting of two pairs of gray eyes!
Barb in Maryland wrote: "Just got started. I really admire the way GH used Chapter 1 to show us the intricate relationships between the main male characters. And I appreciate that doting mama Lady Lindreth is presented as ..."Yes, I find the audiobook helpful sorting through all the male relatives, I just plug along until it makes sense - I always struggle a bit with those opening scenes with several family members getting the relationships straight! I get into the humor and the rest eventually falls into place.
Susan, the only way 'Randy' could be used for a hero would be in one of those Restoration comedies with characters like Lady Wishfort ('Wishes for it'...durrh!) or Mr Horner (cuckolds all the husbands) etc etc. :) :)
I, too, found the opening scene somewhat confusing, or, to be fair, required more concentration than I was giving it. I'm still not sure how Laurence is related to Waldo......And I'm a bit confused over Tiffany too!
Too many aunts and uncles!
(As an aside, one of the helpful things the Victorians did was to refer to aunts and uncles by their surnames, so it was simpler to work out how the relationship was achieved!) (It may occur in Jane Austen as well??) (I remember it mostly from Mill on the Floss,with the disapproving aunt who suddenly champions poor Maggie after she has disgraced herself.)
Jackie - 'nun such' it is then! :) (non-such sound a bit like 'nonchalent' to me!)
Yes, Tiffany is the one thing I remember most about the book - I can't remember what happens to her, but hopefully she does NOT get what she wants!!!The awful thing is, her only fitting 'punishment' would be have her looks spoiled so she might have something else to think about in her life .....but I suspect it would NOT improve her character, and she'd become like Laurence just filled with self-pity.
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Susan, the only way 'Randy' could be used for a hero would be in one of those Restoration comedies with characters like Lady Wishfort ('Wishes for it'...durrh!) or Mr Horner (cuckolds all the husba..."Lol! ;)
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Yes, Tiffany is the one thing I remember most about the book - I can't remember what happens to her, but hopefully she does NOT get what she wants!!!The awful thing is, her only fitting 'punishme..."
Agreed, I think a Tiffany who lost her looks would become bitter and more difficult.
Finally! Ch 4-- Waldo and Ancilla meet. That's our reward for wading through all the local gossip, party planning, Tiffany's back-story and reports of 'first sightings'. I regret to say I was rather bored and confused by Chapters 2 and 3.Now we're getting somewhere!
Barb - Lol! Glad I’m not the only one - that’s why I like audiobooks for rereads, it’s like listening to a witty, gossipy friend, instead of slogging through reading those bits.
I'll be starting a bit late; I had to finish The PushCart War by Jean Merrill, which had me in stitches. So, then I'll go read all your comments and see if they change any of my mind...
I think Tiffany raises difficult questions about whether someone as dreadful as she is can ever become a decent human being!I mean, is there anyone who could possibly inspire any compassion and sympathy in her for them?
Just how entirely horrible is she I wonder??
And, in the same vein, why on earth doesn't anyone tell her what a total cow she is?!I appreciate Ancilla is in no position to do it, being only an employee, but maybe once she has married Waldo (do hope that isn't a plot spoiler??!!!), she could speak 'freely and frankly' to the girl.
After all, in the end it is for Tiffany's sake - it's sad to think she will live her life being loathed by absolutely everyone.
Do those with Narcissism ever realise how hated they are, and do they care?
Beth-In-UK wrote: "I think Tiffany raises difficult questions about whether someone as dreadful as she is can ever become a decent human being!I mean, is there anyone who could possibly inspire any compassion and s..."
In real life she would be considered (view spoiler)
Hmm, not so sure. I think regarding Narcissism that favourably (excusably!) is a mistake. BUT, yes, maybe if she had a bad upbringing - but the faults seem more to be indulging her and spoiling her, rather than depriving her of love and affection so that she had to overcompensate by thinking only of herself??
She just seems to be a genuinely selfish and horrible piece of work to me, nothing 'pitiable' at all to excuse her!
Also, she 'rules by fear'.....everyone is frightened of her 'displeasure' when she doesn't get her own way. Obviously Ancilla isn't, but, as I say, she isn't in a position to tell Tiffany to get over herself!Narcissists manipulate others into being afraid of making them angry by throwing tantrums etc.
One has to call their bluff, and not give a stuff if they are 'displeased'. Better still, had Tiffiny been punished everytime she threw a hissy fit because she didn't get her own way, it might have brought home to her that it was unacceptable behaviour.
Ancilla is very clever the way she 'controls' her through appealing to her overweaning ego, but it's a total cop out alas.
I feel sorry for Tiffany in respect of it's sad to be someone that everyone else loathes, but that's it.
So, I'm finding this a very interesting contrast with ACC in how Heyer presents the characters to us. In ACC we are meant to like Adam, and the natural expectation would be to like Julia as well. We don't meet Jenny right away, and when we do, I for one was unsure about her -- these are not formulaic characters. But our Author leads us along to (view spoiler)(I'm saying "we" although I don't know if anyone else shares this view.)In TN, on the other hand, we are very clearly instructed whom we are to like (Waldo, Julian, Ancilla, Patience) and not to like (Laurence and Tiffany). It's not subtle at all, and I'm not sure how I feel about that.
Elza wrote: "So, I'm finding this a very interesting contrast with ACC in how Heyer presents the characters to us. In ACC we are meant to like Adam, and the natural expectation would be to like Julia as well. W..."That is a great point, Elza, something to think about.
Yes, the characterisation in A Civil Contract was a lot more subtle, complex and nuanced - more like real life!I'm not sure about being 'unsure' about Jenny, however - I think my sympathies are personally always primed to like the 'plain janes' and be more suspicious of the 'natural beauties'!!! :)
Tiffany is a perfect illustration of what happens to a spoiled-rotten two year old who's allowed to run amok. It's so much easier to train a two year old than it is to do remedial work on an almost-adult.And, interestingly enough, Waldo takes the blame for Laurence's lack of character by confessing that he spoiled him.
Both of them suffer from the "too much, too soon" syndrome.
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Yes, the characterisation in A Civil Contract was a lot more subtle, complex and nuanced - more like real life!I'm not sure about being 'unsure' about Jenny, however - I think my sympathies are p..."
Ditto Beth.
The concept of 'spoiling' a child is an interesting one - as in, the word is itself interesting.A 'spoilt brat' (Tiffany definitely!) is always a 'horrible' person, but it can be easy to forget that the word 'spoil' means that the 'real' person has been 'ruined' (ie, 'spoilt').
Yes, whoever is doing the spoiling is indulging the brat (for whatever reason - which may be fear, laziness or, in Waldo's case for Lawrence, initial ignorance of the effect he was having) (and partially guilt, too, for Waldo - he didn't like Lawrence, and felt bad that he didn't, so gave him money instead...)......but the spoiler is also ruining the person as well, destroying any chance that person has to grow up to be a decent human being.
The 'spoiler' is as 'culpable' as the 'spoilt'. (???)
Very deep thinking there Beth:)
Sounds like the Oompa Loompa songWho do you blame when your kid is a brat?
Pampered and spoiled like a Siamese cat
Blaming the kids is a lie and a shame
You know exactly who`s to blame
The mother and the father
Well, sadly, whoever has the raising of the child has the responsibility I guess - hard to evade that one!As the Jesuits said, give me a child till he is seven and I will show you the man. I don't think it's quite that 'early' (as in, I think you can do a lot after seven as well!), but that's the general premise.
I do think, (whether it's deep thinking I'm not sure!) that we just can't say 'oh, bad blood' (or whatever!) and leave it like that.
I suppose with Tiffany she was passed around various relatives (and yes, that sense of 'not belonging' could indeed have been a bona fide psychological contributor for her narcissim - overcompensating or whatever), but it seems people went 'in fear' of her tantrums, and that is the BIG mistake.
One of my 'texts for life' is something I came across a while ago, which summed it up - it was a book called 'Walking on Eggshells'....that shows how fatal it is to 'tip-toe' around a 'difficult' person. All it does is confirm their bad behaviour, and never calls them to account.
Though I can't remember what happens to Tiffany, I don't think she is irredeemable, if she gets some 'life lessons' (which I imagine she does during the course of the novel) (well, I hope she does!), and a bit of 'plain speaking' (eg, from Ancilla when she is no longer bound by the constraints of being her governess), I think she could improve hugely. (Well, could she get any worse, sigh?!)
Too often people "spoil" others out of a misplaced sense of love, not understanding that when you really love someone you want them to grow into the very best that they can be. Sometimes that's not particularly pretty while it's happening, but as adults we do need to look at the long picture and think about it.I think poor Tiffany suffered from getting her own way, because no one loved her enough to stop her. You have to really love someone to put an end to their tantrums instead of just fleeing to parts unknown for peace and quiet.
Somewhere I have a George Macdonald poem that mentions that for the good of ourselves (our souls?) we must have some winter in our lives. If life is all skittles and beer, we tend to just become more and more self-involved and self-importan and selfish. Not that there's anything wrong with skittles and beer...
I have the book in hand. The dust jacket is long gone and all that's left is a probably rebound in a horrid orange stiff board. I look forward to rereading and discussing with all of you.
I agree - you have to WANT them to be a better human being! And yes, the strength of a human being is only discovered in adversity.
I wonder, in respect of Tiffany, thinking about that second sentence of mine, whether she resembles Scarlett O'Hara? I was always impressed, when I finally read GWTW, as opposed to only seeing the film (good as it was), how 'interesting' Scarlett was.....not all good, not all bad....with qualities of both.
As a spoilt southern belle she's pretty obnoxious, but she does get tried in the fires of adversity (and then some!) and her strength of character does come to the fore. Still very 'flawed' but one can't deny that she 'saves the day' in many respects for the other characters (Melanie and Ashley) who are very 'good' but can't face what she can make herself face.
I wonder, perhaps, if, say, Tiffany had found herself out in the Peninsular, being forced to be the only nurse for wounded soldiers, and ensuring there was foraging to be done, or whatever, she might actually have found her 'selfishness'....ie, her 'will to survive and thrive' ....was a 'virtue' in those circumstances???
She definitely needs to come face to face with her own Rhett Butler though, who calls it to her face, and is not impressed or fooled by her, and can't be manipulated or 'won over'. (I'm assuming Waldo won't succumb to her, but of course neither will he fall for her either!)
Beth, I kept thinking through this read that Tiffany is Scarlett O'Hara! Selfish, conniving, manipulative -- but always a survivor.However, Tiffany has no redeeming qualities. Heyer really is pretty hard on her, and makes no bones about Tiffany's lack of any kind of moral compass. She is all about Tiffany, and nobody else. (Could it have made a difference if she was actually called Theophania? We'll never know. LOL)
I'm just reading the scene where Lord Lindeth and Waldo turn up at the Underhills, and Tiffany has 'pounced' on Julian....there's a bit about how she adored being adored, which is reminding me of Julia in ACC. Waldo and Ancilla are having their first proper conversation, and it is clear that humour is what they have in common, and that is what is drawing them together.
It's also clear that Mrs Underhill values Ancilla because it gives HER social cachet that so socially well connected a person is living in her household.
I've just started Ch 6 and I'm enjoying all the social competition in the neighborhood; all of that oh so genteel back-stabbing!I do notice, though, that I'm finding this book very easy to set aside whenever something newer or more engaging comes along. However, I like it well enough while I'm reading...
Speaking of the social competition, Barb, I think Heyer is at her best (and her most Austenesque?) when bringing all the competition and microaggressions of a small community to life. I love that stuff! It happens in the London-based novels but is most enjoyable for me in the stories set in a country neighborhood.
Beth-In-UK wrote: "I'm just reading the scene where Lord Lindeth and Waldo turn up at the Underhills, and Tiffany has 'pounced' on Julian....there's a bit about how she adored being adored, which is reminding me of J..."I think Mrs. Underhill does value Ancilla's social cachet, rather in the way "My daughter, the doctor" does in our day. But she's partial to Ancilla also because she has a good heart and appreciates how much smoother Ancilla has made her life, not just with Tiffany but also helping with Charlotte and even Courtney.
I like Waldo, by the way, in spite of his unfortunate name. He's quick-witted, but he's also kind. Their little exchange about Charlotte's aversion to horses is a good example; he won't twit her about it, and he manages to turn the "intolerably conceited" remark into a neat return.
It's here, too, at their first meeting that we see first Ancilla's distrust of the sporting set; she held them in "poor esteem", although we don't know why.
That poor esteem seems to be coming out a bit more now once we learn about her uncle's wayward son (Bernard?), who 'apes' what comes naturally to Waldo.Bernard is also very extravagant, and is wasting his father's money, and the general hasn't got that much of it - I think it's clear Ancilla thinks Bernard 'a bad son' to a good father, especially since the general has been generous and protective of Ancilla's own family.
It seems she is blaming the likes of Waldo for 'inspiring' impressionable youngsters to copy him 'for bad reasons'.
While reading about Tiffany's deliberate-looks-like-an-accidental meeting with Lord Lindreth, I realized that this is why Tiffany is so completely unlikable; she knows exactly what to do in order to look adorable and unspoiled. Nothing about her springs from truth; even at her young age, she's just plain completely deceitful.I think that's what makes her so horrible - she knows what right is and she twists it to get her own way.
Just started Ch 10. Oh look who shows up, just like the proverbial bad penny.
Abigail wrote: "Speaking of the social competition, Barb, I think Heyer is at her best (and her most Austenesque?) when bringing all the competition and microaggressions of a small community to life. I love that s..."I think this is Heyer's most Austenesque work.
It’s really appalling the Mrs Underhill actually WANTS her son to (view spoiler)I’m also enjoying the rivalry between (view spoiler)
Just starting tonight! I have the delightful green Harlequin cover ... okay, apparently I can’t capture an image from Google search on my iPad. I’ll insert it later.This is only my second read of this book; the first was about 5 years ago. And I totally missed on my first read that Tiffany’s real name is Theophania! I think I’m going to start calling her that in my mind. I’m hoping I’ll find her more amusing and less annoying than I did on my first read.
Andrea, I agree - but on the other hand, he is perhaps the one character who actually could cope with Tiffany as he sees through her from the off and dislikes her etc etc. He would never be her victim. That said, yes, no mother should want it!!!!
Karlynne, I agree - and when Waldo, in reported speech, says 'he would have thought Tiffany's artlessness amusing ' (if Julian hadn't been her target), I would say there is a missing word there....'cultivated' or 'calculated' in front of 'artlessness'. Because 'artless' is the very last thing she is! She knows exactly what she is doing, and how to do it!
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