The Mookse and the Gripes discussion
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Booker Prize for Fiction
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2020 Booker Prize Speculation
I have been invited to a book group (which I hope to make, travel permitting) which will be discussing Dept. Of Speculation with her in March. I also had a NetGalley ARC of Weather. As a result I have just read her three novels over the last week or so. Last Things was a little weak, Dept. Of Speculation made her reputation and I think is her best book (although I still need to write a review).
Weather is stylistically almost identical to her second novel. Thematically it has a lot in common with Ducks, Newburyport - climate anxiety, Trump concerns, family issues etc. Albeit books (the narrator is a librarian) rather than baking. And it adopts almost an opposite approach - although the book features lots of miscellanea and randomness it’s at the same time a deliberately elliptical style (whereas D,N by contrast was all about unedited comprehensiveness). Not sure I have explained that well but I still need to write my reviews and formulate my thoughts properly.
How is the politics on "Trump concerns" i.e. preaching to the choir / finger pointing, or does it attempt an empathetic understanding of why so many voted for him?One big issue with current literary fiction is that one would get much the same idea on current politics as one does from Twitter- i.e. that no one really support Trump/Brexit/Boris/The Coalition, or if they do it is because of their ignorance or prejudice.
More choir preaching - which is one of a few reasons why I think Dept of Speculation is a better novel.
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But Twitter is never going to be a good place for empathic insight into why people voted for Trump. The format is not conducive to it and - maybe this shows a continued shortcoming in how I read the site, but long, thoughtful blog-like threads seem much more a feature of left-wing tweeters (and the sort of centrists regarded as mainstream left 10+ years ago) than of posters on the right.
Gumble's Yard wrote: "More choir preaching - which is one of a few reasons why I think Dept of Speculation is a better novel."I'll give that a miss then.
Agree that not sure twitter is really made for long, thoughtful blog-like threads, I more meant the skew in users. May be a UK centric view (not so sure in US) but evidence there does suggest a left wing/remain skew (e.g. https://www.hansardsociety.org.uk/blo...).
Literary fiction I think though ought to be the place for more detailed consideration - but it doesn't seem to be. This doesn't exactly come from an unbiased source (a new political magazine aiming at the sort of right wing types who call everyone else snowflakes but get very upset very easily) but some of its points here have validity:
https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/januar...
I'm interested in reading Weather (also there are at least a couple of giveaways going on, so that may be why many US readers are adding it to their TBRs.) I added it to my TBR the second I realized its existence. Given how little I have in common w/ the narrator in Dept. of Speculation, I honestly expected to hate it, and was delightfully surprised at how much I liked it.Jenny Offill seems to hold a special place for the literary community. I think I get that impression b/c of the many essays etc she writes for various publications as well as how often she's just mentioned. I was a bit shocked to realize she'd not written many more books when I read Dept of Speculation just b/c her name seemed to be everywhere.
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I said this before (last year?) in a discussion about Brexit novels, but I think we are too close to these events for there to be that sort of really good exploration of them in a novel. Many of the older novels held up as great examples of state of the nation writing have several years, sometimes several decades' remove from events in question.
Also why is it that UK conservative publications seem shriller and shallower in their articles than the best US ones? I'm not saying there isn't anything ranty and low-evidence in, for example, the American Conservative, because there definitely is, but I have seen discursive essays in there or
* I meant the National Review. I always struggle getting these two and New Republic mixed up because I only look at them a few times a year, but the National Review is conservative and the Nation and New Republic are left-leaning.
Is climate seen as a "political" topic in the UK? It feels like the US is a "very special" place in regards to global warming and whether or not it's "real." But I could be wrong. Other countries? Europe seems good, but I'll admit to being rather clueless to places other than North America & Western Europe.
Ella wrote: "I was a bit shocked to realize she'd not written many more books when I read Dept of Speculation just b/c her name seemed to be everywhere..."Of course Dept. of Speculation is all about someone that can't get round to her second novel - there is a classic scene where she meets an old acquaintance who apologies as he must have missed her second book, only for an awkward moment when she has to admit she has not yet written it.
Lisa Nandy of course agrees with Paul and has made it a part of her campaign"That has been a bit of a problem for the left in recent years is that we spend a lot of time in this hot house of social media, particularly Twitter, when most of the country if they are on social media seems to be on Facebook."
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Less so than in the US but still somewhat. Left-leaning publications make it more prominent.
I don't read other languages fluently enough to tell, but as far as I can tell, in Poland (biggest coal user in Europe) it is as much associated with the left as in the US. Would love to hear perspectives on this from people who regularly read news from West European countries. I would guess that in most of Western Europe it is taken more seriously than in the UK rightwing press, and taken most seriously of all by all sides in Germany and Scandinavia. But this is just conjecture on the basis of their policies and politics.
Gumble's Yard wrote: "Ella wrote: "I was a bit shocked to realize she'd not written many more books when I read Dept of Speculation just b/c her name seemed to be everywhere..."Of course Dept. of Speculation is all about someone that can't get round to her second novel..."
Right, but when I picked it up, I didn't realize that b/c her name just seemed to be everywhere. I'll readily admit I'm a dingbat about some things. (You're talking to the woman who didn't know the Iowa caucuses didn't have a winner until a full day later.)
I assure everyone that Right Wing Twitter in the US is alive and well and doing REALLY well. So are right wing-aligned nationalist groups as well as hate groups (which are not aligned with any wing of any party, since their main goal is hating people.) Twitter is a place where your feed is so aligned w/ what you follow/post that you can miss large groups of people. Every now and then I do something stupid and get a whole bunch of responses from people I'd never know were there otherwise. (I did this recently w/ an article from Christianity Today that I thought was well-written and I found a lot of....let's call them not Christ-like.. responses.)
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Antonomasia wrote: "I said this before (last year?) in a discussion about Brexit novels, but I think we are too close to these events for there to be that sort of really good exploration of them in a novel. Many of the older novels held up as great examples of state of the nation writing have several years, sometimes several decades' remove from events in question."Writers often seem to take a better approach to things that affect them on a personal level: they live through an experience and synthesize it into fiction some years later, when they've made sense of it. I wish more fiction writers would reflect a little more before wading into political novels. I am probably "the choir," but I also hate didactic fiction.
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ETA: something like landmark 90s TV series Our Friends in the North but extended by another 25+ years. (Saying 25+ as works like this about Brexit have yet to be published, if not written.)
Antonomasia wrote: "I see a lot of climate change discussion coming out of India these days, but don't follow their media regularly otherwise, so am not sure about how it aligns with political parties."I thought that too (about seeing a lot of discussion/press about India) but I'm similarly blind about how this aligns with actual policy.
I guess I'm not surprised about Poland being polarized. I'd also just suspect that it may not be highest on the list of priorities for some countries that have much larger issues on their plates.
An interesting paper recently (it's a working paper & may be behind a paywall - I'm at work) https://www.nber.org/papers/w26669
If it IS behind a wall, Vox published the very interesting tables (and did a rather iffy explainer...but the charts are good. ) https://www.vox.com/2020/1/24/2107623...
and similarly reported stuff in various places (via a quick & dirty google search) all say the same thing: US is outpacing other democracies in partisan division/political divide. This will affect climate further in the US, sadly.
oy - I forgot the point of all that: re novels.
I agree w/ you Emily about didactic novels and you Anto on what a good book about the current political climate anywhere would have to look like/include.
But this data makes it interesting to see that much of the stuff we used to think "caused" the divide (internet being just one) is not as much to blame as some other things. OK must get back to work.
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It has been doing very well economically for a long time and was one of the countries least affected by the last recession. But like Hungary, they are deep in a culture war - the right-wing of which some commentators ascribe to former Eastern Bloc countries being made to feel inferior to Western Europe and being expected to copy and catch up on everything since 1989, and they are tired of that, and to assert themselves becoming more reactionary on issues where Western Europe is among the most progressive in the world, LGBT being a particular point of conflict. However they are also very fond of EU funding and keen on continued membership - the economic miracle has a lot to do with EU funding.
It is probably only less divided than the US in stats (if it is, not shown there) because there is a larger proportion of the population supporting right-wing parties.
Anyway I expect there will be a lot more climate change literary novels in the next few years and that Weather, being quite short, is just one of the earlier ones in a growing trend.
Antonomasia wrote: "I think a half-decent novel about Brexit or other shifts towards nationalism would need to be an epic thing going back decades, at least to the 1960s if not a little earlier, exploring how changes ..."I feel like a good "single day in the life of a neighbourhood" kind of novel could work too, one with plenty of other storylines and Brexit running very much in the background. But yes, subtlety would be key!
Paul wrote: "Had somehow passed me by that Marilynne Robinson has a 4th in the Gilead "trilogy" coming out in September (15th Sept from Virago in UK according to Amazon so should be eligible)"Book Depository UK has a paperbook version coming out May 2, 2020. The hardcover comes out Sept 15 in US and UK. Does the May 2 date in the UK make it Booker eligible? Mantel v. Robinson would be a battle whether for the Women's Prize or the Booker.
LindaJ^ wrote: "Paul wrote: "Had somehow passed me by that Marilynne Robinson has a 4th in the Gilead "trilogy" coming out in September (15th Sept from Virago in UK according to Amazon so should be eligible)"Boo..."
Well that's very interesting & it's definitely changed since last week when I looked up the US date. (It was Oct 20th according to my notes last week, and I preordered. Just checked & it's been moved to "This title will be released on September 15, 2020.")
And thanks Linda - for some reason I just thought I could wait for the US version, but that's crazy. So I changed my preorder to Book Depository. I've not ever done a preorder from them before - anyone have a clue how pre-orders work w/ them and other countries? I wonder if I should have tried wordery? Maybe I'll just preorder from them all. I'm very excited about this book!
(I wrote a review when I finished the trilogy on another book site, and my main "gripe" - my only real want after reading them was that I would like to hear the story from Jack himself. I knew I couldn't be the only person who felt like that, but I figured she had her reasons.) Oh, this is exciting!
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That said, if you get a copy please send my way when you’re done :-) !
The September date makes it eligible for the Booker and bringing the launch forward from October suggests that the publishers intend to submit it.
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https://www.theguardian.com/books/202...
If this is actually good, maybe a longlist prospect.
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I suspect politically it isn't going to be too in tune with the award either given his previous views on 9/11 etc.Unless his new take on 9/11 is a fictional rewrite where a 6ft5 hero with a six-pack like a cobbled city street, a chest like a suit of NFL armor, biceps like basketballs, and subcutaneous fat like a Kleenex tissue successfully prevents the attacks - in which case one judge might pick it.
(source: Never Go Back)
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I am reading The Memory Police. In the latest chapter novels have disappeared and people made bonfires of books and the library. I am suddenly less upset about that than I was ten minutes ago.
But when books burnings start, it isn't usually the bestsellers with biceps like basketballs that begin the bonfires.Memory Police is rather good I think - one of those that grew after I'd read it as it stayed with me longer than most books.
I spent about half the book trying to work out why and how things were going or what the grand repressive plan was, but eventually decided that was not relevant. The book is about people being diminished when things they treasured have gone, whether those things are hats, hair ribbons, green beans, birds, roses, fresh fruit, photographs or novels. The memory police are repressive, but the only disappearance which is obviously so is the boats.
Yes it isn't the book one expects it to be. Which is why I think I was a little disappointed while reading - but then more than a week or so later found I was still thinking about this one more than the 2-3 books I'd read since. Good chance of being on the other Booker Prize list at end of month (although just slipped off my personal longlist).
I haven't read all of Martin Amis's novels but I haven't read one I didn't like. This new one sounds good to me.
Last time I read one of her books. she came on the forum and complained about my comments. So I think I shall be passing this time round!
Oh well. I loved Orchid and the Wasp and she liked my Goodreads review.
Paul wrote: "Last time I read one of her books. she came on the forum and complained about my comments. So I think I shall be passing this time round!"She is a member here and her response would appear to be an explanation rather than a complaint.
Yeah, right.She joined specifically to spruik her book and hasn't been seen since. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but hardly grants her immunity from criticism, does it?
I have no problem with writers who join in a discussion about their work provided they identify themselves. And as it goes, I really rated that book. It was the bit about "she is a member here" which I can only read as yet another go at deeming a topic off limit for discussion. But if I misunderstood then sorry. Perhaps the answer is that we shouldn't get censorious quite so often.
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I had already anticipated getting Wild Laughter, since I loved Orchid and the Wasp. I do not have unrealistic expectations for this next effort, since it is so close to the first and the publishers may have rushed it a bit. The earlier difference between the author and Paul seemed to be more about individual perceptions on Celtic Tiger and banking in general than the prose. I do hope the book is a good one. I am also looking forward to Red Pill by Hari Kunzru to be published in September, and All Our Shimmering Skies, by Trent Dalton due in June.
Sam wrote: "I had already anticipated getting Wild Laughter, since I loved Orchid and the Wasp. I do not have unrealistic expectations for this next effort, since it is so close to the first and the publishers..."Sam, you're like a personal TBR creator! I can't remember if I knew Hari Kunzru had a new book coming or not, but thanks for the many heads up!
Did anyone read The Mirror and the Light review on the Times?99% of Contemporary literary fiction feel utterly pale and bloodless by comparison
Looks like a third win (or at worst shortlisting) for Mantel (unless we have two winners again)
The Guardian had an excerpt. I stopped reading the excerpt since I was getting the sense that Mantel may have changed her prose a bit to make it more accessible. But it is equally likely that it was just my imagination having just read earlier two books. One thing I liked from Bringing Up the Bodies, was the way Mantel would revisit in Cromwell's thoughts or conversations older scenes which had been elliptical at first view. I expect more of this repetition in the new novel but hope it isn't overdone.
The Guardian review: https://www.theguardian.com/books/202...
"She is still exuberantly rethinking what novels can do. Not since Bleak House has the present tense performed such magic. The narrative voice rides at times like a spirit or angel on thermals of vitality, catching the turning seasons, the rhythms of work and dreams, cities and kitchens and heartbeats. Mantel did not have much to learn about scene-setting or dramatic timing, but her involvement in the staging of Wolf Hall, and the experience of watching the television adaptation, may have contributed to an ever-finer honing of dialogue. In a room at the Tower, in the time it takes to burn two candles, a prisoner’s silence mounts towards confession. On a thundery midsummer night, talking quietly in a garden tower at Canonbury, eating strawberries while the moon comes up, two men arrange the future “a hair’s-breadth at a time”.
Endings, insists Cromwell, are opportunities. What begins now is the rereading. For this is a masterpiece that will keep yielding its riches, changing as its readers change, going forward with us into the future."
Prospect MagazineMantel, it seems, has turned historical fiction into a new—and newly respectable—form partly by the simple expedient of making it inordinately long. One of the joys of Georgette Heyer’s and Jean Plaidy’s frothy romps through the past is how little they ask of the reader; Mantel is, for good and bad, in a different league. Unlike another superlatively accomplished historical novelist, Penelope Fitzgerald, Mantel elects to govern an enormous cast, assuming a high level of involvement by her readers and spinning out her stories beyond the remit of what might reasonably be expected to engage anyone. (Fitzgerald, who probably spent as much time as Mantel researching her historical fiction, would devote months to cutting out what she identified as surplus.)
1.5 million sales might slightly call into question the accuracy of "what might reasonably be expected to engage anyone"
I would like to see the Booker introduce a rule that no book over 500 pages (ideally 300 pages but perhaps phase that in) is eligible going forward. Best way to send a signal that these bloated monsters are getting out of control.
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The Mookse and the Gripes
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So many people among my friends/following reading or shelving Weather by Jenny Offill at the moment. Been a quite a while since I've seen this many people actually reading the same book at once when it's not listed for any prize. Thinking it's a very likely prospect for both WP and the Booker.