The Mookse and the Gripes discussion
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Booker Prize for Fiction
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2020 Booker Prize Speculation
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Antonomasia, Admin only
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Jan 28, 2020 06:28AM
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Garry wrote: "I'm reading American Dirt just now, and do not understand why it has merited her imprimatur." I have not read it so I'm speculating, but it sounds like the kind of subject that is well suited for the emblematic Oprah "performance", built on a curated, calculated presentation of "authentic" fascination with and emotional reaction to other people's pain (what I sometimes call trauma-porn).
The most startlingly apt commentary seems to be that Oprah is presented as "first citizen" of her audience: a regular member of the group, but also always the designated spokesperson for it. She (or her staff) picks narratives that would showcase her talents in performing this emotive reaction on behalf of her silence, platformless audience.
Maybe they saw a kindred spirit in the American Dirt project.
As for the 'small world' connection ... I've harbored this uncharitable suspicion that lit-fic writers are mostly somehow involved in the same pool of journals, reading, reviewing, publishing and responding to a small pool of subjects, stylistic experimentations, criticisms, commentaries etc etc.
I formed that opinion based on 19th CE literati literally conspiring to make canon and make taste, I have no evidence that this is still happening today ... other than coincidentally walking into journals covering topics that coincide too neatly with recent literary publications.
Ella wrote: "I prefer a newspaper blurb - at least then I can be generally sure that a professional read the book (or did whatever they'd normally do w/ a book) and wrote a review."I wouldn't be so sure. A while back, a couple of members of the Mookse and Gripes forum started sending reviews to newspapers speculatively. Sometimes they were carried. One member seemed to get a gig out of this reviewing for The Independent, and I found two of her reviews that had quite clearly been written without reading all (or perhaps any) of the novels in question because of the glaring errors in them. I think they were written based on a mixture of reviews of the authors' previous works, other reviews and the publishers' blurbs.
Mod
Antonomasia wrote: "Whilst I'm sure we've all seen reviews that make us doubt whether the critic has read the whole book, there are also other reviews which are in-depth and which make it absolutely clear they have."Yes, but Ella's point was that she believed snippets of newspaper reviews on book covers would be authentic, written by a 'professional' who had definitely read the book. I don't think that can be taken for granted.
Incidentally, when my wife had a book published she asked a well-known writer acquaintance for cover quote. The acquaintance agreed in principle, but said she would need to have a copy of the manuscript to read first. So neither can we assume that all author quotes on book covers are inauthentic.
My favourite author blurbs are the ones for books written after the blurber passed away. WG Sebald is a great one for that - not sure if his agent uses a medium to get hold of his views.
What?! There are author recommendations on books published after the blurbed has died!? I never take cover blurbs seriously because, one, I’ve been burned (the upside of a long story is that grossly exaggerated blurb is how I found Shelfari which led me to Goodreads, via Ron Charles video review) and two, I know that authors praise the writer in general or are simply dishonest and praise the book without reading it.
Emily discussed the need for more books on the border and immigration, etc: Off the top of my head and my book spreadsheets, I bring recommendations. We could make a much longer list, but this is a start. I tried to cover the spectrum here, from various "sides" of the debate and types of readers: All are available in English, but I may not have linked to the English version - hopefully I did: These fill the requirements of being from Latinx writers (documented and not, but not all from Mexico) who have written books that would fall into the general category discussed re: Luiselli and the current flare-up:
I can't recommend it b/c I've not read it, but I'm really excited about this one, which drops tomorrow:
Children of the Land by Marcelo Hernandez Castillo. He's already a celebrated poet and this is a memoir about his life as an undocumented child immigrant from Mexico who came to the US. Releases tomorrow by Harper in the US.
A Dream Called Home by Reyna Grande and she has a memoir I've not read called The Distance Between Us.
The Devil's Highway: A True Story by Luis Alberto Urrea (also last year's? The House of Broken Angels ) both about Mexico->America And his "Into the Beautiful North" is also quite wonderful, from the other side of the border.
Fruit of the Drunken Tree by Ingrid Rojas Contreras
I think everyone's read this, but if you've not, from our buddies at And Other Stories came the lovely Signs Preceding the End of the World by Yuri Herrera in English.
Bang: A Novel by Daniel Peña
Everyone Knows You Go Home by Natalia Sylvester
The Gringo Champion by Aura Xilonen
Tears of the Trufflepig by Fernando Flores
This one is a mashup of prose/poetry/etc: Borderlands/La Frontera: The New Mestiza by Gloria Anzaldúa
YA:
A little more on the YA end and not exactly on topic, but it's touching in good ways: The Book of Unknown Americans by Cristina Henriquez
The Shame the stars books by Guadalupe Garcia McCall
https://www.goodreads.com/series/2243...
I Am Not Your Perfect Mexican Daughter by Erika L. Sánchez
The Everything I Have Lost by Sylvia Aguilar-Zéleny
Nonfiction:
Undocumented Lives: The Untold Story of Mexican Migration by Ana Raquel Minian
Homelands: Four Friends, Two Countries, and the Fate of the Great Mexican-American Migration by Alfredo Corchado
Haven't read it, but it's been recommended more than a few times: Where We Come From by Oscar Cásares
All the Agents and Saints: Dispatches from the U.S. Borderlands by Stephanie Elizondo Griest
POETRY:
Short, by a poet (reviewed #1 on the list recently) Unaccompanied by Javier Zamora (who traveled to the US ALONE at age 9 - the poems are all about this)
Antígona GonzálezAntígona González by Sara Uribe
Virgin by Analicia Sotelo
History etc:
(The book is dated, and I should find something newer that's similar - which I will work on)
Mongrels, Bastards, Orphans, and Vagabonds: Mexican Immigration and the Future of Race in America by Gregory Rodriguez
A Massacre in Mexico: The True Story Behind the Missing 43 Students by Anabel Hernández
FILM: I can't recommend b/c I can't recall the title, but I really wish I could remember the name of a film I saw a couple years ago - a documentary, which was tremendous and explained how until recently historically, nobody cared if the border was crossed, and people went back and forth - to work or by the season, but w/ increased border "security" it forced people to either stay or leave, also trapped a bunch of people and separated families. I'll try to figure it out b/c it's well worth watching.
For specific insights into how culturally "off" American Dirt is Try:
Border Lore: Folktales and Legends of South Texas by David Bowles
Edit to add - you apparently REALLY want to start with Urrea b/c that's what Cummings did:
“My research started with reading everything Luis Alberto Urrea ever wrote. Then I read everything else I could find about contemporary Mexico and by contemporary Mexican writers. Then I read everything I could find about migration. Sonia Nazario’s Enrique’s Journey is magnificent. So is The Beast by the Salvadoran writer Óscar Martínez.” (from her Shelf Awareness interview: https://www.shelf-awareness.com/max-i...)
And here's a decent roundup of the current American Dirt "dirt"
https://www.bitchmedia.org/article/am...
I keep reading that paragraph about her reading all the contemporary Mexican writers and thinking about her saying "she wished someone browner then her" (paraphrasing) would write this book, but they didn't, so she HAD to. Does anyone else feel serious dissonance with these two statements???American Dirt was panned in USA Today: https://www.usatoday.com/story/entert...
Really poorly written, complete w/ examples, says Barbara VanDenburgh (who gave it 1.5 stars)
[the writing] would be problematic no matter the source. But it matters in this case that the source is a European-born woman in the U.S. without ties to the Mexican migrant experience.
In anticipation of these criticisms, Cummins defends her decision to write this story in her author’s note. But even there, she does more damage than damage control. “I was worried that, as a nonimmigrant and non-Mexican, I had no business writing a book set almost entirely in Mexico, set entirely among immigrants,” Cummins writes. “I wished someone slightly browner than me would write it.”
Lots of someones “slightly browner” than Cummins did write it. ...
In her author’s note, Cummins goes on to write, “At worst, we perceive [migrants] as an invading mob of resource-draining criminals, and, at best, a sort of helpless, impoverished, faceless brown mass, clamoring for help at our doorstep. We seldom think of them as our fellow human beings.”
I am sorry, but who is we?
OK, really done now.
Thank you for the list Ella. Several of them are available in the UK.Those quotes from her don't help Cummins' case at all.
MisterHobgoblin wrote: "Yes, but Ella's point was that she believed snippets of newspaper reviews on book covers would be authentic, written by a 'professional' who had definitely read the book. I don't think that can be taken for granted."The few of us who remember well the old Booker forum (not the old Mookse forum) know what you are trying to do by bringing this up repeatedly. It will not be tolerated here. Most members will not have noticed so it made sense to ignore it. You are bringing it up more frequently now so it's time to tell you to stop and we expect you to do so.
Mod
Hugh wrote: "The 2020 longlist announcement details are on Facebook - 28th July 1030-1100. So no need for a midnight shift this year..."That makes much more sense than what they have done in the past few years. Thanks for the info.
Thank you for the list, Ella! And thanks for reminding me about Into the Beautiful North. I loved that book -- great title too -- and will check out more by Urrea.
Ang wrote: "The few of us who remember well the old Booker forum (not the old Mookse forum) know what you are trying to do by bringing this up repeatedly. It will not be tolerated here. Most members will not have noticed so it made sense to ignore it. You are bringing it up more frequently now so it's time to tell you to stop and we expect you to do so. "What, exactly, am I trying to do? I made a factually correct post that was directly relevant to a point that another member had made.
Why do you and another moderator persistently tell me what I can and cannot discuss? You don't seem to do this for anyone else.
And if I caught out a newspaper publishing reviews where the reviewer had obviously not read the books, why shouldn't I refer to it whenever and wherever I like?
But you are correct that it was the old Booker forum. Time flies. :)
Why shouldn't you refer to it whenever and wherever you like, you ask. The answer is simple - because we've told you not to. I am not going to get into the unfortunate events that took place in the last year of the Booker forum. If you want to be a member here, heed the moderation.
Actually, my direct quote (I just copied it) was: I prefer a newspaper blurb - at least then I can be generally sure that a professional read the book (or did whatever they'd normally do w/ a book) and wrote a review.
So I allowed for the idea that they may not normally read the book, and frankly, blurbs are just advertising, which I think is generally suspect in all forms. A review is a bit different, that's all I'm saying.
Yes Ella. And my point is that if a weekly arts section of a newspaper has reviews of, say, 20 books then it is unrealistic to expect them all to have been written by professional journalists, and frankly unrealistic to expect that they have all been read. Sometimes they are little more than a repackaging of advertising material with the odd fact found from a writer's Wikipedia page. Some newspaper reviews are great, but it would be a mistake to attach value to every newspaper review just because it is in a newspaper.
Mod
This post should NOT be taken as a reason to re-open the subject.
Getting back to American Dirt, here's My Review. I should add that I DID actually read all of it, sitting up late last night to do so, and I have the facial stretch marks from yawning to prove it. N.B.: Thanks to Ella for taking the time to give us a list of other (and probably much, much better) books on this subject. I would hope to get around to reading Urrea's work, especially, in due course, (and to be fair to the author of American Dirt, she does name-check him in the actual text of her novel).
Mod
Garry - I largely agree with your review, specifically where you say "What follows is a not-bad chase thriller, there are two or three moments of genuine tension. But if I'd bought this before, say, a long haul flight, I would have been disappointed; there are much better page-turners available in airport bookshops." Too true.Having just finished American Dirt, I can definitively say that it is NOT Booker material. If it somehow is longlisted I will be grossly surprised (who knows - maybe Child will champion it).
If it were any other book - that is, not granted an exorbitant advance, not an Oprah's pick, etc. - I think it would be largely ignored and there would be very little discussion about this book.
Garry wrote: "Getting back to American Dirt, here's My Review. I should add that I DID actually read all of it ..."Garry, thanks for your review. The bit about the barbeque...omg!
Dylan wrote: "If it were any other book - that is, not granted an exorbitant advance, not an Oprah's pick, etc. - I think it would be largely ignored and there would be very little discussion about this book."
Yes! That's it! It's the big push by everyone (tons of resources, 4 articles in the NYTimes in the first week, more blurbs than one book can hope to hold, a movie, already translated & out in other countries, a movie deal, Oprah, the fact that it's on so many lists of "can't wait to read it.")
American Dirt is already being sold in Mexico (in Spanish,) and let's say that the frenzy here is nothing compared to what Mexican writers are saying. I know they'd already sold translation rights, but I do think it was a bad idea to send it directly to Mexico so fast.
I'm not upset w/ this book, per se, I'm upset w/ the bright light being shone on the publishing industry and the way they seemingly picked one book - this one - to make "the book of the year." The business end is the big issue behind the fury. That list of writers who signed the letter are angry about the publishing industry, I think, more than who writes what.
So I agree, Dylan. I'm almost starting to feel sorry for Cummins actually. It feels like she's in the midst of a storm where her (mediocre?) book is just a symptom of the much larger problem.
Now that Flatiron has cancelled her tour, it seems they just want to hide, blame her & reap the financial rewards. I think that's a cop-out. Sure, people would have protested, and it would have been a little crazy, but they should stand tall with the book they published and have a serious conversation about it. To hide away and just reap the financial rewards is ... icky. The big 5 can afford to protect everyone, and they've done it with big books for ages.
Sorry for the millionnaire with the barbed wire manicure? Hmmm, I haven't got there yet.The top rated review here on Goodreads, by “David,” contains links to further articles that point out that the company that snapped this up was also responsible for Oprah’s memoir, which I suppose explains the book club tie-in. As interesting as the cultural dynamic here, I think, is what it shows us about the workings of the publishing industry.
Emily wrote: "Sorry for the millionnaire with the barbed wire manicure? Hmmm, I haven't got there yet.The top rated review here on Goodreads, by “David,” contains links to further articles that point out that ..."
Maybe not sorry for her (just thinking of the picture of her manicure makes my skin crawl) but I do think this fury is about much more than her or her book. The publishers could and should have done more work to at least avoid some of the absurdity.
And yes, that's what I was trying to get at - the publishing industry is at fault for this (and honestly, they should have fact-checked her book, reread it more carefully, had a Mexican author check the Spanish & cultural aspects that have created one of the funniest twitter threads ever (#writingmyLatinonovel - which seems to have an actual hashtag now, but some of the best lack it. ie "praying to Santo Ricky Martin" - rofl.) Anyway, the people behind the book getting out into the world in the style it did should really be paying the price as much as she is. They could have hired many people to help make the book less mock-able. That's all I was trying to say.
Isn’t the best thing to do with this book simply to ignore it.
I don't think so. I wouldn't have known about the issues if it hadn't been discussed here and I might have wasted money on the book.
In my case it’s made me much more interested to read the book. I have it ready for next Monday. I call it the Spycatcher effect. That book unfortunately was rubbish and looks like this might be; but as soon as someone starts saying what is not acceptable to read my interest is raised.
Some people are just naturally censorious, I think.
Mod
Although it seems to qualify you for a Nobel Prize.
It whets my appetite for good books if I read an occasional stinker. And if it’s a stinker which lots of people are chattering about, so much the better.
To me people are complaining - particularly on twitter - that a rubbish book (in literary terms as much as political correctness) is getting far too much publicity - thereby giving it even more publicity. Its like when people retweet Trump/Katie Hopkins/Corbynistas/insertpopulistofchoice in condemnation of what they said.
I do agree that the outrage and argument (not to mention countless podcasts, radio chats, NPR seems to have devoted themselves to this book alone lately....) will only boost sales. But this book was always going to be a best-seller b/c it was set up to be exactly that. I honestly don't care if people read it. My worry is that they will then have preconceived unconscious negative ideas encouraged by a book that pretends to be based in loads of research etc.
IOW, if she'd just said she was writing a thriller, rather than the book to save all migrants, nobody would be talking about it like they are (maybe.) It's the white savior-y stuff that seems to stick in the craw.
I mean the book was picked for Oprah, reviewed multiple times, and a film is on its way. The 'far too much' publicity for it was already pretty decent, I'd say. If people stay silent then nothing in the book industry will change...
It seems that the negative press has created a much needed conversation, but I do feel bad for the author though. This is a very unforgiving age, and I worry that the well intentioned author will be as reviled by Progressives as anti-immigrant people are.
I’m usually against giving things like this more publicity. But in this case the controversy has reminded me of the very enjoyable Into the Beautiful North (which is a border book but also quite funny!), and have added Antígona González and Signs Preceding the End of the World to my to-read list. None of them are held by my library, and I've recommended them all and others by the same authors.
The negative press for "American Dirt" has had one positive effect, to highlight some of the books we should be reading instead. This is from the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/books/202...
Ella wrote: " despite claiming to have done tons of research, it seems she's got some very basic factual issues. It's long, but I strongly suggest reading this...https://thebluenib.com/a-poor-imitati... "
I did read the article (which has been very widely quoted across the press so I had read it before starting the book) and I also read American Dirt (which is a not particularly well written thriller)
From the article
"Lydia and her son decide to escape Acapulco by riding northward atop the freight train known as La Bestia, described as the one place out of reach of the drug traffickers. In reality, this train is practically controlled by organized crime. Members of the Mara Salvatrucha gang regularly climb aboard, rape female travelers and rob the migrants blind. Those who refuse to cooperate are thrown to their death. These horrific realities are glaringly absent from Cummins’ tale."
From the first time La Bestia is mentioned in American Dirt
"The train has earned the name La Bestia because that journey is a mission of terror in every way imaginable. Violence and kidnapping are endemic along the tracks"
The second time
"Robbery is a foregone conclusion. Mass abductions for ransom are commonplace. Often, kidnappers torture their victims to help persuade the families to pay. Half of the people pretending to be migrants or coyotes or train engineers or police of la migra are working for the cartel .... La Bestia is controlled by the cartels"
When she first meets others who have already travelled on La Bestia on previous journeys, they discuss in front of her how many times they have each been raped.
On the train itself Lydia and her friends are robbed and two females she is with are repeatedly raped.
-----------------------------------------
OR a smaller one
From the article:
Mexico is depicted as a one-dimensional nation, irredeemably corrupt and violent, while the United States of American Dirt is a fantasy land: a country free of gun violence, hate groups and organized crime
From the book, the first group of Americans they encounter is a group of armed vigilantes looking to kill migrants
Most of the other criticisms re valid (some were even obvious to me - for example the boy's Italian name which looks to have escaped from a Suzanne Vega lyric; I also did not like the mix of Spanish/English in the character's conversations - albeit we have also discussed that in the context of some far more literary books like the different translations of El Llano el Llamas)I think her biggest narrative mistake was in not having the central protagonist as an American (say who had married a Mexican). She was clearly trying to write the character as being like her (she says this in the end of the book) and so effectively ends up writing her as a exaggeratedly anglicised Mexican (who reads and sells English literature and speaks English fluently).
I'd like to recommend a border book that is not so well known and is excellent, Everything Begins and Ends at the Kentucky Club by Benjamin Alire Sáenz.
Mod
I would like to suggest, though, that if we do want to keep talking about American Dirt we do it in the Book News thread or even its own thread. Unfortunately, that would break any future discussion from the many comments that exist in this thread, but I do think it's time to refocus here on the Booker speculation.
To be clear, no one did anything wrong or even unfortunate. I don't want it to feel like anyone or any thing is being called out here (other than Goodreads, because that function would allow for seamless discussion to go on), but let's do what we can to carry the American Dirt discussion on elsewhere.
Had somehow passed me by that Marilynne Robinson has a 4th in the Gilead "trilogy" coming out in September (15th Sept from Virago in UK according to Amazon so should be eligible)
Mod
Jack tells the story of John Ames Boughton, the black sheep of his family, the beloved and grieved-over prodigal son of a Presbyterian minister in Gilead, Iowa, a drunkard and a ne’er-do-well. In segregated St. Louis sometime after World War II, Jack falls in love with Della Miles, an African-American high school teacher who is also a preacher’s child, with a discriminating mind, a generous spirit, and an independent will. Their fraught, beautiful romance is one of Robinson's greatest achievements.
Maybe she is going for a record for telling the same story in multiple books.I love them though!
This sounds as if it might be back story.My one issue with Home was the Hollywood ending when Della comes looking for Jack - and just manages to miss him. So wonder if it will also go into the future vs Home and have them reunite.
[now I'm wondering if this should move to a Marilynne Robinson thread - perhaps when the book comes out]
Paul wrote: "This sounds as if it might be back story.My one issue with Home was the Hollywood ending when Della comes looking for Jack - and just manages to miss him. So wonder if it will also go into the fu..."
Sorry - I'm confused by the blurb but also very excited. I've long wanted this story from Jack's viewpoint - is that what we're getting? I'll delete this & move it to her thread if we decide to do that.
According to Amazon US, it'll be out in the UK before it hits the US: Jack: A Novel by Marilynne Robinson
Hardcover
This title will be released on October 6, 2020.
And maybe that's because they want to make sure to submit etc.
Trevor wrote: "I wish Goodreads allowed us the basic forum function of moving posts that might get tangential to a separate thread. If it did, I'd move the American Dirt posts above to their own place..."A note - we discussed it, and there now exists a new folder for things like this (and more) and there is already an American Dirt thread ready and waiting for those (like me) who can't seem to get away from this story (or maybe just can't let go.)
I introduce you all to "Talking Points" (a new folder) and inside the folder, you'll find a thread I started just for American Dirt:
Folder: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...
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