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Colloquial speech or polished speech - Which do you like better in fantasy novels?
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I have used a difference in speech patterns/accents/dialects to show highlight differences between charactersBut I always try to keep them pretty minimalist and make it so they don't intrude too much into the reader's consciousness. If the reader consciously notices it, I've probably done too much.
This is one example from 'Dead Man Riding East'
Kirisch finished his breakfast and went outside to load their baggage into the coach. By the time the coachman arrived Kirisch had arranged the baggage on the roof so that there was a cosy nest in it.
“What’s tha doing lad?”
Kirisch made himself comfortable.“I couldn’t face another day travelling inside.”
The coachman climbed up onto his seat and glanced at what Kirisch had done before replying. “Aye well, company never hurts up on top, but you’ll rue it if it rains.”
Kirisch laughed. “My old mother always used to tell me that my skin was waterproof and to stop whining.”
You probably should not do accent, unless you are Twain or Kipling. It is hard to do well and readers don't like it. (Go pick up PUCK OF POOK'S HILL and see what I mean.)However, you can certainly do vocabulary. Some people use long words, some short; some people sound like they are from Maryland while others sound like Texans. In an ideal book you would never have to add the tag, "Mary said" or "Bob replied", because the word choice would clearly indicate that it was Mary or bob talking.
I read another thread on this topic recently (sorry, can't remember where, precisely) and the general consensus was that most people find it irritating if it is too over the top, and might stop reading the book as a result. Best advice was to just drop in the odd bit, like Jim's example above, and as Brenda suggests, to used distinct vocabulary for individual characters.
It's confusing there's two parallel threads on two groups and when I saw the other one I thought my comment had been deleted! :-(
It depends. Some characters i write colloquially for others i use key words to determine dialect choice. othrr than complaints about my weird slang (affects all my novels) most reviewers said my characters sounded realistic. and thats what i strive for :)
Thanks for the comments everyone. They're really useful. I think I'll go for using occasional use of slang/colloquial words, making context clear so readers unsure of vocab can infer meaning.
It's the rhythm of people's speech and the way the use words as well.Happen yer should just stop an listen to folk ;-)
When it's done well, I love it. Irvine Welsh writing entire novels in a first person narrative in an Edinburgh blue collar slang was done brilliantly - as was Anthony Burgess' A Clockwork Orange.
But, most writers can't do that and I've read some horrible accents ....
But, most writers can't do that and I've read some horrible accents ....
Geoffrey wrote: "When it's done well, I love it. Irvine Welsh writing entire novels in a first person narrative in an Edinburgh blue collar slang was done brilliantly - as was Anthony Burgess' A Clockwork Orange. ..."I agree-I am from northern minnesota (the Fargo accents) and NO ONE has ever done it right except the Cohn brothers-lol
When colloquial is done well you almost don't notice it. But it's really hard to do well and it's way too easy to go overboard (I plead guilty and have had to tone it down).OTOH, "high" speech is equally annoying when it's done poorly.
GRRM annoyed the F out of me by being totally inconsistent in his use of both in GoT. People would be all "ser" this and "ser" that and suddenly break out into gangsta street language invectives. Shockingly bad for such an acclaimed work.
Brenda wrote: "some people sound like they are from Maryland while others sound like Texans..."I'm from Maryland and once while visiting Maine was told that I sounded like I was from Texas. Then, while visiting family in Oklahoma a cousin told me "Y'all sound like y'all from New York Ceety!".
And actually there are probably half a dozen distinct Maryland accents (Eastern shore, Blue Ridge mountain, Baltimore, Dundalk...probably others)...Well, I'm sure there are dozens of TX accents, too.
You have to develop your ear for it. Alas, watching TV and movies is not good for this. Everyone you see on a screen, remember, is using a script -- which is to say it was written by somebody else. So you can watch Thorin Oakenshield, a dwarven king, speaking in the actor Richard Armitage's native Yorkshire accent, but saying words written by all the screenplay writers in Peter Jackson's stable. This is not going to help you.Ideally you actually go someplace and listen for a long time to native speakers. Failing that, you can search for native accents on YouTube. You know what would be good, is those taped memoirs they air on NPR. (I forget the name of it, somebody help me here.) They go around the country and you can go in and tell your story into a tape recorder, and they archive it. So, in theory, you could go and fish out the voice of a man born in Alabama in 1928, and listen to his timber and word choice.
There ya go, I knew someone would give me a hand. That is going to be a priceless resource for anyone who wants to write Americans. There must, must be some equivalent in Britain and Europe...
It takes time to develop the ear and the eyes in that direction. For the unwary reader, it can stumble them--look how many fumble with the Great Bard's classic speeches and Twain's twangs these days, and how many miss out on great works because of them. I love colloquial speech, but especially in a fantasy world, where readers are already trying to settle their feet and get a feeling for the world they'll be sifting through, I fear it can be too much. Good colloquialism is something that, as Micah noted, when done well is something you cease to notice very swiftly. But I dare say in mainstream fiction, or nonfiction, what have you, that colloquialism also comes with an innate ground: we have basic conceptions of Welsh, say, or German intonations, or Arabic. Even if we've never heard the phraseology before, most have already formed conceptions of the place or have some little knowledge of it: we ground the language firmly in that knowledge and do our best to move forward with it so located.
In a fantasy world, there is no such pre-existing "ground". Many people also don't have the patience to develop the means to interpret such. Thus, key words can be a better means, perhaps, to establish dialect and that sense of "the other" than full-blown colloquialism--I'd say use the latter at your own peril, as it may isolate you from some reader base. They're there for the world, and above all, they want to understand it, be immersed in it; colloquialism is surely more immersive, but only once they've broken inside its external shell!
Brenda wrote: "There ya go, I knew someone would give me a hand. That is going to be a priceless resource for anyone who wants to write Americans. There must, must be some equivalent in Britain and Europe..."Indeed there is Brenda. Here it is:
http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sou...
Looks like a great resource. At the moment I'm living in Sri Lanka so the range of UK and US accents I'm exposed to is pretty limited. Will have to make do with the internet.
Chris wrote: "It takes time to develop the ear and the eyes in that direction. For the unwary reader, it can stumble them--look how many fumble with the Great Bard's classic speeches and Twain's twangs these day..."Thanks Chris. It definitely seems that key words are the way to go.
Mark wrote: "At the moment I'm living in Sri Lanka so the range of UK and US accents I'm exposed to is pretty limited. Will have to make do with the internet."In that case, focus on finding local programming rather than commercially produced TV and movies. For example, here's one that has some classic Smith Island accents..the Captain is pure Maryland Eastern shore:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5ZUh...
Mark wrote: "Chris wrote: "It takes time to develop the ear and the eyes in that direction. For the unwary reader, it can stumble them--look how many fumble with the Great Bard's classic speeches and Twain's tw..."My pleasure, and also: best of luck on your fantasy novel! It's an enthralling and enchanting (and, alright, it can grind you to pieces without proper caffeination sometimes!) process.
The other thing you can do is to call Microsoft to your aid. Specifically, Excel. Make a spreadsheet for all the major characters. Log in their favorite oaths ("By Grabthar's Hammer!"), their favorite source of quotations (Elvish poetry? MAD MEN?), their religious inclinations (Bible? Eressea? Buddha?). Ideally your brain would do all this for you, and automatically pop the appropriate dialect and quotation out for you when you wrote each character, but if not, cheat.
I really dislike colloquial dialogue. Nobody thinks that way. Some people speak that way, but generally you can present the same atmosphere using other textual clues that don't involve butchering the dialogue.
"...there wos other genlmen come down Tom-all-Alone's a-prayin, but they all mostly sed as the t'other wuns prayed wrong, and all mostly sounded as to be a-talking to theirselves, or a-passing blame on the t'others, and not a-talkin to us."Dickens got away with it.
Micah wrote: ""...there wos other genlmen come down Tom-all-Alone's a-prayin, but they all mostly sed as the t'other wuns prayed wrong, and all mostly sounded as to be a-talking to theirselves, or a-passing blam..."
So did Mark Twain, but not every writer can write on their quality level.
So did Mark Twain, but not every writer can write on their quality level.
Unique dialects are fine. Colloquialisms and slang and regional language is rarely a bother. If a character says "Mosquito hawk" instead of "dragonfly," it can give them more definition and it's generally easy to get what they're talking about. I have an issue with accents though. Accents sacrifice clarity and that's not something you want to do. Very few authors get away with doing accents, and I often feel we give them a free pass because they're either out-standingly brilliant, or because they're authors from a different era with different standards.
If you can write as well as Dickens and Twain, go for it. There are very few indeed who can, and most modern readers will not tolerate it. Pick up THE PICKWICK PAPERS yourself, and see.
Brenda wrote: "If you can write as well as Dickens and Twain, go for it. There are very few indeed who can, and most modern readers will not tolerate it. Pick up THE PICKWICK PAPERS yourself, and see."
This. My thoughts exactly.
This. My thoughts exactly.
develop an ear and listen to people talk. you'd be amazed at what you find
develop an ear and listen to people talk. you'd be amazed at what you find
I say use a combination. Certain rungs of society will inevitably develop vulgar speak or colloquial vernacular. THe hard part is doing it right.
David wrote: "I say use a combination. Certain rungs of society will inevitably develop vulgar speak or colloquial vernacular. THe hard part is doing it right."yeah, whatever
;-)
I generally enjoy the different variations in English - a Kentucky Colonel shouldn't speak like an English Lord - and I can get a kick out regional dialogue or prose. Though some authors could use a little constraint - but other I it is a positive feature of writing
I also hate - HATE - when non-American English is Americanized for the United States. I understand the Irish and the Scottish have their own word usage - but I rather like learning words like gobshite or wheelie bin.
I also hate - HATE - when non-American English is Americanized for the United States. I understand the Irish and the Scottish have their own word usage - but I rather like learning words like gobshite or wheelie bin.
I've just started writing a fantasy novel and I am in too minds whether to write character's dialogue colloquially (for example, "We done real magic! And dint get et by tooth fairies" from
In my previous Sci-Fi novel I had the protagonist have a Westcountry Burr. Instead of writing in the accent (e.g. Alrright my luvu, he asked.) I just dropped in a mention of the accent at the start of the novel (e.g. Charlie spoke with a Westcountry burr stressing every r, dropping initial h's and lengthening the verbs).
As I reader I enjoy colloquial dialogue, especially when done well, by for example, Pratchett, Welsh and De Bernieres. But sometimes I do find it a little hard going.
I'd be really interested to hear other reader's thoughts.
Thanks
Mark