Week 6: 10/12 Part 2, Ch 12-Ch13.V

[Kristi]

Comments?

[Luffy Sempai]

I no longer understand how Germany's defeat of Russia was a step backwards, but I don't care much for now. I've read another book that covers the Great War (As The Crow Flies), and that book had the same image of the protagonist coming face to face against a younger, more frightened German soldier. Maybe that image has been copied many times, in books and movies.

Aaaaanyway Fitz role in persuading England to fight left me scratching my head. The Fitz-Walter reunion was as corny as they come. By this time I didn't care.

Grigori Peshkov no longer has time to make life hard for himself, now that others have beaten him to that task. I rate Week 6 5/5 just as I would rate a bearable bowl of porridge 5/5. It's good, but it's still not filling, nourishing, or subtle.

[Zulfiya]

Obviously, it is not the high-brow read, and the main purpose of the book is to entertain the public. As many have noticed, it is soap-operish; thus, some of the tropes and the plot development are quite predictable, like Fitz and Walter meeting right during this Christmas truce.

I think their meeting also had an objective of conveying the atmosphere of these numerous ceasefires around Christmas in 1914.

Unfortunately, I anticipate some darker times for our characters quite soon.

As for the Russian story, it might be the most tragic one in the novel, and I think Grigory is going to be the ultimate redeemer for the whole clique of characters in the novel. It seems like if something might go wrong in his life, goes wrong :-)

[Sarah]

Zulfiya wrote: "As for the Russian story, it might be the most tragic one in the novel, and I think Grigory is going to be the ultimate redeemer for the whole clique of characters in the novel. It seems like if something might go wrong in his life, goes wrong :-)..."

I felt this way at first and he was one of my favorite characters. But I'm starting to feel like he's a bit of a door mat. And what is with Katerina? First she gets pregnant, then she has Grigori taking care of her, then she has him marry her, then she tries to sleep with him... She's completely immoral!

[Everyman]

Zulfiya wrote: "Obviously, it is not the high-brow read, and the main purpose of the book is to entertain the public. As many have noticed, it is soap-operish; thus, some of the tropes and the plot development are..."

I agree. And I'm not sure how much longer I'm going to stick with it, so if I disappear from the discussion threads, that's why. I just find the characters thin and undeveloped, the plot development reaching beyond the bounds of a willing suspension of disbelief into "oh, gad, here he goes again," and now, the history has largely disappeared into the soap opera stories of some of the characters. I really liked the first parts where we had the dinner table conversation and some of the machinations of the national figures, but now the politics are basically over and it's just fighting, and there are books that do war much better than he does. (All Quiet on the Western front, for one; the autobiography and poetry of Siedgried Sassoon and the poetry of Wilfred Owen, Rupert Brooke, et. al for another.)

As far as the brief taste of the politics leading up to the war, I've gotten Tuchman's The Guns of August out of the library, and so far it's superb, much better at explaining the history and personalities than Follette.

[Everyman]

Sarah wrote: "And what is with Katerina? First she gets pregnant, then she has Grigori taking care of her, then she has him marry her, then she tries to sleep with him... She's completely immoral! "

True. But a single mother in Russia in 1914 with no money and no family to support her may, perhaps, not have the luxury of morality.

[Zulfiya]

I would say Lady Chatterley's Lover and Women in Love are the two most obvious choices because to me they exhibit the power of talent and the might of his literary boldness.

His short stories are also quite good. Lady Chatterley's Lover has a very interesting history of its publication. It took more than thirty years to publish the unabridged version of the novel because it was too provocative for still Puritanical England of the thirties, forties and even fifties, but the swinging sixties and the flower power finally liberated the novel from its literary chancery :-)

[Alana]

While the reunion of Walter and Fitz was totally ridiculous, of course, I did like the way the Christmas truce was included, as this was something I had in fact heard about before. I think it does a lot to show that horror of war; realizing that the man you're shooting at is simply human like yourself, wanting nothing more than to return to his family and his normal life. Neither side is evil, but the nature of world politics at the time forces them to be enemies.

[Sarah]

Thank you Zulfiya.

[Sarah]

Everyman wrote: "True. But a single mother in Russia in 1914 with no money and no family to support her may, perhaps, not have the luxury of morality ..."

This is very true. I think I wouldn't even have blinked if it was just the marriage. That was a very practical decision. But she tried to sleep with him and that's the part that I found appalling. And with an attitude of "Here's your reward".

I find my own reaction a bit disturbing, though. Somehow I managed to lose respect for both of them based on her behavior. It's unfair to Grigori but it was what I felt.

Zulfiya said: "Obviously, it is not the high-brow read, and the main purpose of the book is to entertain the public"

I'm having a hard time with this book because of this. It seems like it was the fluffiest one that was nominated and I'm disappointed that the book is not more of a make-you-think type. Also, by my count only 4 of the 10 who voted for it have participated.

[Luffy Sempai]

Sarah wrote: "I'm disappointed that the book is not more of a make-you-think type."

Great entertainment is unapologetic in its intent and content. There are a lot of books that don't make us think seriously or deeply, yet are respected because they are damn good at what they do, namely entertain us.

We are seeing the faults of this book because we're in the act of catching Ken Follett saying "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."

This book's high rating, and those of its sequels (which I'm unlikely to waste my time on) holds goodreads back, and tars both casual and serious readers, and scholarly and easygoing tastes with the same brush.

Where do these people come from? I voted for this book on this board, anticipating, I admit, some smart writing, and knowing nothing going in. I've watched Follett online, he's an intelligent person. How could he write this book knowing that the latter has a market. What person a) wants to read a big book about WW1 b) Reads FoG and gives this book 4 or 5 stars? This is a joke of bad taste.

Can I be excused from the table because I'm bringing nothing new to it in terms of praise, that's for sure. Nonetheless, I'm not losing too much time or sleep with this book and I can go on slogging with FoG till the end, but I'm disappointed with this whole business.

[Sarah]

Luffy wrote: "Can I be excused from the table because I'm bringing nothing new to it in terms of praise, that's for sure. Nonetheless, I'm not losing too much time or sleep with this book and I can go on slogging with FoG till the end, but I'm disappointed with this whole business.
..."

I do like your comments so I would enjoy it if you kept posting. Nonetheless I completely understand if you want to throw your hands up :)

As for the high ratings... I hate that Goodreads wants you to rate the book based on how much you enjoyed it. I think part of my lack of enthusiasm is the slow pace. I think that if I read this straight through at my normal speedy pace, I would really like it and thus give it four stars simply because it's entertaining and four stars is "really liked it".

What I find most interesting is that I've been a Follett fan for years but haven't read a book since 2007 (I think). I've always enjoyed his books but now I'm wondering if it was just because I read him when I was younger and hadn't read as many high quality novels. Or maybe I liked them because they are unapologetic. They're sheer entertainment and that can be fun.

I agree that I'm unlikely to read the sequels to this one.

[Zulfiya]

Sarah wrote: "Also, by my count only 4 of the 10 who voted for it have participated. "

Heads will roll at the end of current reads:-) People seem to be having trouble understanding the concept of responsibility, and my frustration is growing up. Harsh words, I know.

[Sarah]

I am totally with you. There were a bunch of those books I wanted to read.

[Nina]

Zulfiya wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Also, by my count only 4 of the 10 who voted for it have participated. "

Heads will roll at the end of current reads:-) People seem to be having trouble understanding the concept of ..."

But not too harsh. People have been given fair warning and should know that voting means participating, so good on you for acting on it.

I'm with Sarah on this one - I think speed is the friend of this book. There is more entertainment than depth to be found here, so maybe larger weekly chunks would be better?

I'm sort of split in two on this book. My intellectual/highbrow self doesn't have much praise for it, but my lowbrow/laidback (not really sure what name to give it) self is really enjoying it. We can all agree that there are better books out there, more challenging and well-researched books, etc., but I can't help but enjoy it.

[Sarah]

I would definitely b be interested in picking up the pace a bit. I've been planning on going off on my own and using the speed reading thread.

I agree that this appeals to a more laidback, easy fun part of my personality. It would be great fun to kick back and read it without analyzing it.

[Zulfiya]

I will join you, guys. As I told earler prior to this discussion, I am listening to an audio version of this novel, so I actually had to stop listening to it every weekend, and on average, the weekly selection takes only a couple of hours.

I know that I am cheating a little bit, but now it is hard time for me to find actually sit-down time to read, and the only possibility to squeeze another book into my intensive schedule is to opt for an audio edition.

[Sarah]

Zulfiya wrote: "I know that I am cheating a little bit, ..."

Audiobooks are saving my butt right now ;) And believe me, I was a hold out for "real" books. About half of my in-person Sci-Fi/Fantasy group does audiobooks regularly.

[Sarah]

For those who want to read faster, I'm hopping over the speed reading thread to discuss speed.

[Everyman]

Sarah wrote: " Also, by my count only 4 of the 10 who voted for it have participated. "

Perhaps the moderators should a) send PMs to these people reminding them that they voted for the book, and if they still don't participate, b) advise them that they should not vote for books in future until they have participated actively in at least one discussion.

I also find it more than rude when people vote for a book and then don't participate in the discussion, because it sometimes means that a number of people who WOULD have participated in the discussion of another book don't get the chance to.

[Sarah]

Everyman wrote: "I also find it more than rude when people vote for a book and then don't participate in the discussion, because it sometimes means that a number of people who WOULD have participated in the discussion of another book don't get the chance to.
..."

Hear hear! I wholeheartedly agree.

[Everyman]

Zulfiya wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Also, by my count only 4 of the 10 who voted for it have participated. "

Heads will roll at the end of current reads:-) People seem to be having trouble understanding the concept of ..."

As long as the rules are clear, applying them is not harsh.

[Everyman]

Sarah wrote: "I would definitely b be interested in picking up the pace a bit. I've been planning on going off on my own and using the speed reading thread."

I would also vote for accelerating the pace to get through it without just dropping it totally, so we can get on to something more worth reading.

[JoLene]

I agree with the comments that speed is probably a friend of this book because it is like potato chips --- very easy to just sit down and keep munching!! I find that I can read the weekly selection in one or two sittings.

I too would be fine with a faster pace.

Also, I will re-iterate the suggestion that perhaps it should be mentioned in the nominations that you are looking for "more challenging" (not most challenging -- like Infinite Jest) when nominating. Given what happened with Outlander, I didn't vote for this book because I thought it might be similar.

[Sarah]

I commented on the speed read thread so we can try to organize ourselves. Those of us who want to pick up the pace that is.

[Esther]

What I find surprising about this book is that I really enjoyed "Pillars of the Earth" when I read that earlier this year. But now I am finding "Fall of Giants" quite a lot thinner. For instance, I can't really see myself reading further into the series.

I do think that reading this book faster would help. Having said that I don't really have time to...

To enrich my reading, what I'm doing is reading some other World War One books to form a kind of 'tapestry' of impressions. At the moment, I am really enjoying Birdsong.

[Sarah]

I think the best thing out of this week's section was when Fitz said he was there to win a war and not promotions. For once I was cheering for him.

[Kristi]

Since everyone is thinking speeding up would be a good idea I'll look into adapting the schedule. How much faster would you like it? should I just put 2 sections together each week or would that be too much?

[Sarah]

2 works for me.

[Zulfiya]

That would be fine.

[Esther]

That sounds do-able.

[Alana]

I am for speeding up a bit as well. I, too, am doing it via audio, and through sheer enjoyment of the storyline itself (ignoring any of the "high brow" elements, as has been discussed) had progressed to the point of having to stop and work on another book, because I was getting too far ahead of the group. Unfortunately, that means I am now behind, as I had put it aside for a couple of weeks.

[Kaycie]

Hi all! I am back from vacation finally! I have read through everyones updates but dont have anything too serious to add to the discussion. I do agree that a faster reading schedule would make the book more enjoyable and i am totally on board with that! I havent read the section for week 7 yet, but will catch up quickly and join you guys in that discussion.

I do think I am glad I didnt read outlander with you all, though! Ive been reading the series for about 10 years and absolutely love it! I do think it helps that i read the first ones when i was really young, and now im just super invested. I do agree that itd be a tough book for discussion, though. Its mostly just a guilty pleasure type of read!

[Alex]

Zulfiya wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Also, by my count only 4 of the 10 who voted for it have participated. "

Heads will roll at the end of current reads:-) People seem to be having trouble understanding the concept of ..."

I can't and won't speak for anyone else but I personally fell a few weeks behind due to work commitments but am making a massive effort to catch up and participate in the discussion.

That said, I'm enjoying this book (particularly this week's section). I've read and enjoyed Follett before and came to this novel expecting a soap-opera type read. As such, it's meeting my expectations perfectly.

I ended up not participating in the Outlander discussion after I voted for it due to the negative nature of the discussion. I loved the book and didn't want to spend the entire discussion defending my opinion of it. If that results in my head "rolling" then so be it.

[Sarah]

Zee wrote: "I ended up not participating in the Outlander discussion after I voted for it due to the negative nature of the discussion. I loved the book and didn't want to spend the entire discussion defending my opinion of it...."

Zee, I think this makes it even more important to participate in the discussion. Having one or two people who enjoyed the book could change the entire tenor of the conversation. Also, if someone explains to me why they like a book, it can alter my perceptions and make me enjoy it more. I would definitely appreciate hearing your comments.

[Alana]

Sarah wrote: "Zee wrote: "I ended up not participating in the Outlander discussion after I voted for it due to the negative nature of the discussion. I loved the book and didn't want to spend the entire discussi..."

What Sarah said! I'll be jumping into that conversation eventually (one day, when I have time for it, lol!) and it's always nice to hear varying opinions. Even when everyone likes the book, the conversation can get dull!