The Sword and Laser discussion
What's in the tree?
At the risk of being chased with pitchforks and torches, I immediately thought of Ancillary Justice. Heard all the positive press, read all the amazing reviews and was excited to finally read it. Just did not grab me. I don't want anyone to think I'm hating on it, it just did not get it. Some of the narrative decisions confused me, and I guess I was more disappointed by how much I didn't love it.
I don't understand the love for KingKiller at all. At least Ancillary Justice and A Song of Fire and Ice neither I really enjoyed I can see the appeal. Kingkiller chronicles just leaves me baffled, because the only negative things I heard about it going in is the main character is a bit of an asshole and a Gary Stu otherwise it's woahsdfahsdlfka awesome. I thought huh I have no problem with either of those things I bet I will love the book then I read it and was completely underwhelmed. I mean it wasn't terrible just okay, and that isn't what I was led to believe from all the hype surrounding it.
@Aaron - I wasn't super impressed with the first book but I'm listening to the second book on audible and I've enjoyed it a lot more. The second book to me feels like it ties in the setup from the first book so I understand more the slow build up. Book 1 and 2 feel more like one book to me.
I think ringing endorsements are treated as "objectively the best thing ever" rather than "best of the things I am predisposed to like".I'm usually ambivalent about epic fantasy, so it doesn't surprise me that The Name of the Wind didn't really do it for me despite it being one of the cornerstones of 21st century epic fantasy. And the flaws that I couldn't get past are mostly flaws of the whole genre rather than of the specific book.
OTOH, space opera has been front and center in my preferences for decades so something like Ancillary Justice hits me where I live.
@Nick - I don't think there's anything wrong with you. I've never come across any explanation for aesthetic taste. Sure, there are things that lots of people like, but there are always outliers. I don't think that means anything's wrong with the outliers, just that they have different tastes.For example, I read The Road and thought it was bad when it seemed to be universally acclaimed.
I think the best we can do is try to understand our own taste so we can better choose in the future.
I would take that story and turn it around and make it a Christmas story. It's the tree itself they are all looking at, it's a nice tree, a big tree, it's symmetrical, you can hang a lot of ornaments on it. But it won't fit in your house. There are a lot of trees in the forest. Many of them are just as good, smell as nice, have a great shape. Pick the one that fits for you and who cares what everyone else says.
I like Charlie Brown's little tree the best ;)
Books are very personal in how they speak to you as a reader. Some manage to speak to a lot of people. Some people don't have as much experience as readers of a genre and so anything impresses them. Some people have almost too much experience in a genre and so only something very different can impress them.
Too many factors here to let yourself feel like you are missing something. Your unique experience is the only thing that matters. Though you can of course learn a little something from each book you try, if only that certain things just don't appeal to you.
Everybody has different tastes and nothing is universally loved and we all have different "trees" but it does suck when you feel like you're the only dissenting voice in the wilderness.Sometimes it depends on what you've read before or how old you are or what race or religion or education level. And sometimes it's nothing you can put your finger on, you just know it's not your thing.
I think the important thing is to not feel bad about whether or not you agree with everyone else and just move on.
But one of the good things about a group like this or any book list is once in a while it's a good excuse to try something a little outside your normal sphere and maybe you'll hate it or maybe you'll find something new to love that you wouldn't have found otherwise.
Edit: Damn it. Michele posted her response while I was writing mine and she always seems to say what I think but in a more articulate manner.
It goes without saying that everyone's tastes are individual and no one should feel bad for not enjoying a particular book, but sometimes it is hard for me not to feel like I might have some deficiency as a reader when I'm the guy who can't see what's in the tree. The Name of the Wind is not a perfect example, because I did like it, but certainly not to the degree that many others did. I loved the writing, but wasn't crazy about the story or characters, and I wasn't inspired enough to read the follow ups (though I may at one point).
Sometimes the crowd around the tree can create nearly impossible expectations. Ancillary Justice has been mentioned here, which again is not a perfect example for me because I loved it, but I read it before catching on to most of the hype and the sweep of the major awards. Had I read it with more awareness of the hype, I'm sure I would have done so with a more critical eye and may not have enjoyed it as much.
I'm having a hard time thinking of other examples of books that received huge acclaim, but didn't really do it for me. I've seen a lot of people gushing over The Emperor's Blades, which I thought was merely above average fantasy at best. I don't think that book has quite enough hype to qualify though.
The Alchemist by Paulo Coehlo is a book that people seem to have a deep, almost religious reverence for, and I absolutely hated it. I don't know if that book qualifies either, because it does seem to be a bit divisive - there's a separate, smaller tree with a crowd of us looking up and hating it. That's an example of a book that I don't feel bad about not liking, despite all the acclaim - I'm pretty confident in my opinion of it as new age pseudo-spiritual drivel.
Sometimes the crowd around the tree can create nearly impossible expectations. Ancillary Justice has been mentioned here, which again is not a perfect example for me because I loved it, but I read it before catching on to most of the hype and the sweep of the major awards. Had I read it with more awareness of the hype, I'm sure I would have done so with a more critical eye and may not have enjoyed it as much.
I'm having a hard time thinking of other examples of books that received huge acclaim, but didn't really do it for me. I've seen a lot of people gushing over The Emperor's Blades, which I thought was merely above average fantasy at best. I don't think that book has quite enough hype to qualify though.
The Alchemist by Paulo Coehlo is a book that people seem to have a deep, almost religious reverence for, and I absolutely hated it. I don't know if that book qualifies either, because it does seem to be a bit divisive - there's a separate, smaller tree with a crowd of us looking up and hating it. That's an example of a book that I don't feel bad about not liking, despite all the acclaim - I'm pretty confident in my opinion of it as new age pseudo-spiritual drivel.
Sometimes there is nothing in the tree and everyone is too frightened to admit it because they don't want to look foolish in front of the crowd. Sometimes the emperor is bare-ass naked.
Mod
Personally I'm not bothered by it though. I like what I like and I don't spend much time on things I don't.
Fauxley wrote: "At the risk of being chased with pitchforks and torches, I immediately thought of Ancillary Justice. Heard all the positive press, read all the amazing reviews and was excited to finally read it. J..."I felt the same way about this book, I finished it and could not see the appeal, I even had to check the cover a few times to make sure I hadn't some how picked up a different book then every one else.
I often get leary of a book when I hear so much amazing praise, I get a bit of anxiety even knowing that it's so good and I should like it. It's why The Blade Itself sits on my coffee table and hasn't been read yet and almost stopped me from reading The Martian, which I did end up loving.
It's definitely the Kingkiller books for me. By no means do I hate them, and I actually like a good chunk of both books. But I don't understand the effusive praise at all. Maybe it's because even if he's much better at it than most, Rothfuss is still playing in a sandbox I got tired of over 15 years ago. Another is The Crimson Campaign. A lot of people seem to feel it's a marked improvement over Promise of Blood. I had the opposite experience. PoB's characters were a bit cardboard, and the plot wasn't as engaging as I might have liked, but the interesting worldbuilding kept me going. With CC, that worldbuilding's pretty much finished, and I was left with a bunch of characters who really rubbed me the wrong way.
And to Nick's other observation: I find both these authors likable and charming people in interviews and such.
There are so many books I could list that are put on the highest pedestals by the majority, which I feel should not be put there.Ancillary Justice.
The Road.
The Blade Itself.
To Kill a Mockingbird.
Catcher in the Rye.
Atlas Shrugged.
... 100's more.
You're not the only one to not see what's in the tree. Maybe all those people are pointing and looking because their neighbors are.
I have something of a related problem -- when everyone is standing around oohing and ahhing over a tree, I find it hard to like the tree. The mass of acclaim around a novel is like a sandbag weighing down my enjoyment of it.As for books where I didn't quite like it and I feel like the problem is me, I absolutely have experienced that too. My most recent example(s) are books by Alastair Reynolds. I can see the appeal; I admire that type of work; I have no knock on the craft he used ... but both Blue Remembered Earth and House of Suns left me just a little cold by the end and wondering why I didn't love them.
Ah, I've finally come up with a good example of a tree that I can't seem to understand the appeal of in spite of the crowd of worshipful onlookers: the entire oeuvre of Brandon Sanderson! I keep giving him chance after chance because I figure there's got to be something behind all the praise, and I keep coming up disappointed and scratching my head. Again, not that it's bad, it just doesn't stand out above the average genre stuff for me. I bought all 3 Mistborn books as a set, believing so strongly that it was a can't miss - that series seems to be near the top of every best-of list. The second two books are still sitting unopened in my Kindle, and will probably remain so. I must be a glutton for punishment, because I recently bought the Way of Kings ebook (only because it was on sale at a deep discount). I wasn't feeling pulled in when I read the free sample chapters the first time around, but hey, maybe it will work out better for me this time. It has to, right? Everybody else seems to love it!
*Rolls eyes*
*Rolls eyes*
Add him to my list too, among the sea of mediocrity.
John Scalzi. I just don't get it. I've read Old Man's War and Redshirts and both left me cold. Very little substance and the characters were boring.
Even though I love Sanderson, and I liked the Way of Kings but that rating is completely insane.
@Dara: I liked Old Man's War, but despite Scalzi's protestations that he never read it, it feels awfully derivative of Forever War by Joe Haldeman to me. I'm with you on Redshirts though. The jury's still out for me on Scalzi, I need to read more of his stuff, but I do get the sense that he's a bit overrated. He seems like a guy who gets a lot of attention through pure force of personality and a high public profile with his blog and everything... to which I say more power to him! Seems like a very engaging and entertaining guy who is passionate about his craft. The product itself doesn't seem quite up to the hype for me though.
Andy wrote: "He seems like a guy who gets a lot of attention through pure force of personality and a high public profile with his blog and everything... to which I say more power to him! Seems like a very engaging and entertaining guy who is passionate about his craft. The product itself doesn't seem quite up to the hype for me though. ."Well said! That's how I feel about him as well. I'd like to try more of his work because he seems like an alright guy but I just don't think it will click for me.
The Last Unicorn. A lot of people said that it was a great book and someone even said that one couldn't call oneself a true fantasy fan until you had read it. So I read it and my reaction was meh! I hated the unicorn and the writing was mostly purple prose.
Hmm, this is becoming a complaint thread.
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It was pretty much set up that way IMHO.
Rob wrote: "Michele wrote: "Hmm, this is becoming a complaint thread."It was pretty much set up that way IMHO."
ROFL .. yeh sorry bout that.
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Personally, I'm happy to answer the question, but that's about as much time as I'll spend on it.
Calling someone overrated or complaining about how popular they are simply because you don't like them/there book seems silly to me, but that's pretty much the nature of you internet.
I still find it interesting to see which books/authors people say, but don't caste about their reasoning for it.
I'll give you a reason. I found To Kill A Mockingbird to be painfully boring to read. I had to force myself to turn each page and not fall asleep instead. Also, I do not enjoy reading racist characters. Even though it's supposed to open your eyes to how African Americans were treated, make you more aware, etc., I just find it a painful thing to read, and just makes me mad. I also have a hard time reading anything with rape or child abuse... plain homicide perfectly okay though :/
@Rob - thats just it though, I don't hate these books. I was just surprised at how crazy some people are about them. It makes thing even more frustrating when people whose opinion I trust gush over the books.
I hated hated hated hated Ancillary Justice. I hate it even more now than I did when we read it because a) all the praise it's getting and b) thinking the author is a bit of a prick.What really bugs me about it, more now that before, is that one of the biggest complaints I had was that it felt like it was only a part of a book. At the time, a lot of people defended it. But now that the second book is out, I'm seeing so many of those same "defenders" saying how the second book makes the first one complete (which I'd expect, since AJ was one overhyped setting device).
Oh I hated that book and it's the only book I can think of where I've hated it more (not less) in retrospect, I hate it more every time I think about it.
Rob wrote: "Calling someone overrated or complaining about how popular they are simply because you don't like them/there book seems silly to me, but that's pretty much the nature of you internet."
I don't recall anyone complaining about anyone's popularity, just a few of us discussing the sometimes perplexing phenomenon of why we aren't able to see the same qualities in an author's work that so many others do. And as far as feeling that an author's work is overrated... well gosh, I'm sorry for expressing a reasonable and civil opinion in a forum designed pretty much for that exact purpose.
OK, I did call The Alchemist "drivel", which was a little less civil than the standard I would normally hold myself to. I'm not shy about being critical of books I don't like, but I usually don't resort to anything that harsh. That book just makes me so angry though!
I don't recall anyone complaining about anyone's popularity, just a few of us discussing the sometimes perplexing phenomenon of why we aren't able to see the same qualities in an author's work that so many others do. And as far as feeling that an author's work is overrated... well gosh, I'm sorry for expressing a reasonable and civil opinion in a forum designed pretty much for that exact purpose.
OK, I did call The Alchemist "drivel", which was a little less civil than the standard I would normally hold myself to. I'm not shy about being critical of books I don't like, but I usually don't resort to anything that harsh. That book just makes me so angry though!
Ally wrote: "I also have a hard time reading anything with rape or child abuse... plain homicide perfectly okay though :/"
Funny, I just wrote something similar in a discussion in a horror group here on GR. I have a really hard time reading about anything bad happening to kids, especially now that I've got a few. Animal torture bothers the hell out of me too. Adult human on human mayhem? Bring it on!
Funny, I just wrote something similar in a discussion in a horror group here on GR. I have a really hard time reading about anything bad happening to kids, especially now that I've got a few. Animal torture bothers the hell out of me too. Adult human on human mayhem? Bring it on!
Oooh good point on torture. Human torture, animal torture both bother me reading-wise. I have to flip past those parts. Similarly, if I read about people having surgeries that I've had or similar issues...too close to home. Can't do it...
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You might not, but other people do. I'm certainly a little crazy about the books I love though. And I always hate when everyone doesn't love them too.
The one thing this club has shown is that no matter the book, some will love it, some will hate it and most will be somewhere in between.
But the haters seem to be the loudest, followed by the lovers and everyone else tends to be less vocal. So going just by comments or reviews can often be misleading.
I wish goodreads would show statistics for ratings by group members for books on the group shelf. Given the data they have it would be trivial to add.
Mod
I get people not liking it though. But I still don't understand the hate it gets. Or any book for that matter. Seems like a waste of energy to me.
In fairness, I only hate it when I think about it. Which is when someone posts about it. :PI actually didn't read the entire OP and agree with the observation that the haters usually are the loudest, the lovers next, and the ambivalent ones are most quiet. Oddly, Alif the Unseen so far seems to be a bit of an exception. There are definitely lovers/haters, but the conversation has been comparatively even keel and the threads haven't all been love or hate.
Mod
For me I've only given one book a 1 star rating, Letters from an American Farmer, which was assigned reading in college. And even that book doesn't make me angry. Just glad I'll never read it again. If other people like it/want to read it, more power to them I say.
@Nick - Let me just say the three books you listed as examples I completely understand them not appealing to you, while I really liked both of them.Among Others is sooo much a teenage geek girl's thoughts, I could totally relate to Mori but it is only natural many would find her tiresome or boring or whatever because that is a very narrow voice to listen to for the length of a book.
Blackout/All Clear is very very very long. And crammed with little details. And the timeline of the various stories within don't match up until near the end. And there are a lot of POV characters, each using 2 names.
I love me some Connie Willis but I struggled with some parts for sure, especially in the middle. Once I had all the main characters and their relative places in the timeline figured out I was fine, but that wasn't until near the end of the first book lol. So I kept on keeping on and I felt it was worth it in the end.
I always really like her characters, they feel like such real people to me. So I trusted her to make it all wrap up in a satisfying way, which it did - for me. BUT, it definitely was a struggle and I'm sure she could have cut out a ton of details and still had a good story, but in the end I loved it, little details and all, and I think when I reread it later I will love it even more. So in this case, I just had to trust the author through the tough parts and I felt it was worth the time.
So, there's my very personal reasons for liking those examples, whoch only make sense for me and I totally see where other people might just lem them.
I loved Blackout/All Clear, but all the near misses in the first one where the characters would come so close to meeting up and then turn away at the last minute just drove me nuts.
Andy wrote: "I have a really hard time reading about anything bad happening to kids, especially now that I've got a few"Something about having a baby made me a real pussy about anything bad happening to children. I cried in this episode of Game of Thrones when they left a baby out in the cold.
If I went and gave my reasons, then it would truly be a rant. The simple, polite version is the tree analogy given in the first post. Everyone is looking, but there's nothing there from where I'm standing.
I can generally find something to enjoy about every book I read, with a few exceptions. The majority of this group seemed to love Altered Carbon, but I didn't like it (interesting concept but way too graphic for me). I also didn't enjoy a couple of the "thinker" books that we've read: The Einstein Intersection and Stories of Your Life and Others. I didn't get the appeal of those, although I did enjoy reading through the discussions about them.
Nick wrote: "So some one (we will call him Bob in this case) is walking in the park when they see a group of people looking up into a tree. The group is pointing at the tree and many discussions are happening ... Anyone sometimes feel they don't see what's in the tree?"So many times! (Outlander, The Dragonriders of Pern, and ASOIAF all come to mind). That's why I'm glad we have these discussion threads and GoodReads in general. It doesn't matter what my opinion is. I can usually find other people who share my view. So I don't feel so alone and find I don't care what's in the tree.
Ally wrote: "Something about having a baby made me a real pussy about anything bad happening to children. I cried in this episode of Game of Thrones when they left a baby out in the cold."
That scene didn't actually bother me much because the fantasy elements and special effects brought it so far out of reality.
If I recall our conversation on another recent thread you're a Stephen King fan, right? I'm guessing you've got a complicated view of Pet Sematary. Me too. That's his darkest book for me. And since being a King fan these days pretty much = being a Joe Hill fan, I'm wondering what you're take on NOS4A2 was (if you read it)?
Without getting too spoilery, here are a couple of books you may want to avoid if you're uncomfortable with bad stuff happening (or potentially happening) to kids:
Seed by Ania Ahlborn
Bird Box by Josh Malerman (although this one's worth the read anyway I think).
That scene didn't actually bother me much because the fantasy elements and special effects brought it so far out of reality.
If I recall our conversation on another recent thread you're a Stephen King fan, right? I'm guessing you've got a complicated view of Pet Sematary. Me too. That's his darkest book for me. And since being a King fan these days pretty much = being a Joe Hill fan, I'm wondering what you're take on NOS4A2 was (if you read it)?
Without getting too spoilery, here are a couple of books you may want to avoid if you're uncomfortable with bad stuff happening (or potentially happening) to kids:
Seed by Ania Ahlborn
Bird Box by Josh Malerman (although this one's worth the read anyway I think).
Lindsay wrote: "I loved Blackout/All Clear, but all the near misses in the first one where the characters would come so close to meeting up and then turn away at the last minute just drove me nuts."Agree! It seemed like that was the only thing happening, over and over and over... Didn't like Blackout so I never read the next book. LOVED To Say Nothing of The Dog!
Once she gets over all the dithering with the characters not meeting up the story improves greatly.
Once she gets over all the dithering with the characters not meeting up the story improves greatly.
I can usually see the appeal in a book even if its not for me. There are a few exceptions though so I get that feeling of bewilderment when everyone seems to love something and you just cant understand why. That's The Alchemist for me. Whenever someone brings it up I think I have to reread it because even if I cant stand it I feel compelled to figure out how someone could possibly love it. Or maybe I'm just a masochist.
Not a book, but I wish I could enjoy Dr. Who. I've tried several times, with several different doctors. I don't hate the show, and even enjoy the odd episode, but I never keep watching. The fans seem to get so much joy out of it, I feel envy.
Andy wrote: "Ally wrote: "Something about having a baby made me a real pussy about anything bad happening to children. I cried in this episode of Game of Thrones when they left a baby out in the cold."That sc..."
I did read NOS4A2 and there were moments where I wasn't sure I wanted to continue reading, but the majority of the bad things that happened to the children were kind of fantastical, as opposed to direct violence towards the children. Also, I hadn't had my son yet when I read it. And I never read Pet Semetary, but I would never willingly watch the movie ever again. However I will say that as much as I loved the Shining, the parts where Jack physically hurt Danny were very difficult for me to read.
And those books you mention are nothing I have considered reading, but thanks for the heads up.
The Sword and Laser
Books mentioned in this topic
Quicksilver (other topics)Quicksilver (other topics)
Seed (other topics)
Bird Box (other topics)
Outlander (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
John Scalzi (other topics)Alastair Reynolds (other topics)
Poor Bob keeps looking and looking but doesn't see anything. He asks one of the group what they are looking at and they point to one of the branches. Bob sees nothing.
I tell the previous story as a metaphor(is that the right word?) for the times when a book is really really loved and popular and you read it and don't like it but feel something must be wrong with you because you don't get it. Everyone else can see what is in the tree so something must be wrong with me because to me there is nothing on that branch.
A few books have done this to me. To make matters worse and make me feel even more defective is the fact I've listen to these authors talk in interviews and found them likable and incredibly charming. So it follows the problem must be me.
I've considered the issue of sometimes a book is better put down and picked up again later. I may not be in the right frame of mind to see whats in the tree.
Blackout/All Clear by Connie Willis was one I didn't even finish but intend to revisit.
Among Others by Jo Walton was another.
Anyone sometimes feel they don't see what's in the tree?