Reading the Chunksters discussion
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10/06 Infinite Jest by D. F. Wallace, Week 02
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Kaycie wrote: "Sorry I can't comment too much on what you say in these posts. I just feel like you can't go back to page 100 after you've been to page 600 and not give something away accidentally."True! It's difficult to go back and make meaningful comments after having read so far ahead.
Nicola wrote: "KC wrote: "I just read the section between Mario and Schtitt. can anyone explain the significance to me of Schtitt's point? I think he's summing it up here: "...junior athletics is but one facet of..."Message 37
I thought it was about surrendering to the unknown.
Nicola wrote: "I don’t currently have the book for reference so if anyone is reading this please excuse any vagueness. I found this chunk of reading much more difficult than the first 60 pages, at least some o..."
Toilet humour jokes abounded in this section with lots of references to Schitt and Schatt
I understand the Schatt reference, but I'm missing the connection to Schtitt?
John wrote: "Hey Nicola, you can definitely rest assured that all of this stuff gradually starts to make sense later! You just have to be willing to have no idea what is going on for a bit :)I will have to look up that info about Martin Luther, I had never heard that about him before.
Yes I'm reading based on the premise. I am trying to catch up so I'm not going to let myself get too bogged down in details and things that I don't understand. I'll just keep on plowing straight on.
For the Martin Luther bit I first came across it in A World Lit Only by Fire which was an absolutely fantastic read. Full of interesting stories from the 'Dark' ages and the flowering of the Renaissance. Not to everyones taste I'm sure but one of my favourite books - incrediably entertaining.
Ami wrote: "I understand the Schatt reference, but I'm missing the connection to Schtitt? ..."
Well to me it's 'Shit' and 'Shat'. As in "I really need to go have a shit" (go to the toilet) and "Man I just shat myself" (I just went to the toilet in my pants). That's how I read their names.
Ami wrote:I thought it was about surrendering to the unknown. His posture in the toilet? It said something about it being a submissive or surrendering pose but don't you think that's an odd thing to bring up while a mans sitting on the loo? After he mentions the name of Luther straight afterwards I definitely interpreted it as more toilet humour.
P.S. Thank you all for taking the time to comment. I thought it might be a lonely hike to catch you all up!
Nicola wrote: "John wrote: "Hey Nicola, you can definitely rest assured that all of this stuff gradually starts to make sense later! You just have to be willing to have no idea what is going on for a bit :)I wi..."
I don't have access to the book right now but I did a quick google and found lots of references - this is one from here: http://primal-page.com/piven.htm. This snippet just references Martin Luther in passing.
Imagine, if you will, a tortured soul, who in the midst of his daily excretory ritual, is accosted by a hostile vision of Lucifer himself. The Devil attacks him in the castle lavatory, hurling scatological slurs (and perhaps other matter) toward his hapless defecating victim, whose only defense is to fling insults and other available material back at his evil foe. He finally defeats Satan with "a mighty anal blast." Imagine how this fecal hallucination became the inspiration for a theological revolution, how this tortured soul became the leader of a religious movement which changed history irrevocably. "Scatet totus orbis," he proclaims: the entire world defecates.
I've checked the passage in the book as I have it on hand and it talks about Luther, so maybe it wasn't a direct reference. But with so much emphasis placed on scatalogical things I made the connection in my head.
Here's another reference from elsewhere:The fiercely scatological Martin Luther (“I am like ripe shit, and the world is a gigantic asshole,” Luther once explained) had the idea that launched the Protestant Reformation while sitting on the john.
I can really see how this sort of things fits right in with the themes, humour and general 'feeling' of Infinite Jest.
Nicola wrote: "Ami wrote: "I understand the Schatt reference, but I'm missing the connection to Schtitt? ..."
Well to me it's 'Shit' and 'Shat'. As in "I really need to go have a shit" (go to the toilet) and ..."
This was funny! I hadn't noticed, but I think you're right, that's what's intended, even if they are spelled Schtitt and Schacht or whatever.
He does play with names quite a lot, I think. Incandenza is an interesting name, and there are lots more. (view spoiler)
Nicola wrote: "Ami wrote:I thought it was about surrendering to the unknown. His posture in the toilet? It said something about it being a submissive or surrendering pose but don't you think that's an odd thin..."
Actually, no... Not at all. I'm sorry, I thought the conversation you were referring to was the one between Mario and Coach Schtitt. Schacht pose while on the throne, I remembered as being an observation of Hal while in the locker rooms after an evening practice, if I remember correctly. My effort in shedding light to your question was in reference to your reply to a question somebody else asked earlier about Mario and Schtitt. I did not factor in anything about Schacht eliminating his bowels when I originally wrote my response concerning Coach Schtitt and Mario. Their conversation went a little deeper than Schacht's posture on the porcelain throne.
Rosemary wrote: "Nicola wrote: "Ami wrote: "I understand the Schatt reference, but I'm missing the connection to Schtitt? ..."
Well to me it's 'Shit' and 'Shat'. As in "I really need to go have a shit" (go to t..."
You're funny! I understand the definition of the word, I don't see how it's associated to the character (Schtitt)... Schacht is obvious. I read Schtitt as being the moral compass amongst these many afflicted characters (all other characters thus far)-a real salt of the Earth type. That's why I don't understand the connotation, if there is one, or if that's what was intended. There's a reason for everything in this book...Very contrived.
You posted something about Luther, I think.... A fresh turd in a world full of assholes? Maybe this is the missing piece... The Schtitt in a world full of assholes? If this is how you read him, then I understand.
Ami wrote: "Nicola wrote: "Ami wrote:I thought it was about surrendering to the unknown. His posture in the toilet? It said something about it being a submissive or surrendering pose but don't you think tha..."
Oh, I see. That makes sense. I will re-read that coversation at some point and see if it make a little more sense than it first did.
Further to the defecatory theme (my sincere apologies to anyone who reads all of these comments while eating) I've just thought about all of the references to 'digesting'. My first thought was 'consumerist society' and I still think that's a link, but now I'm also considering a human body and what happens at the end of the digestive process...
Ami wrote: "Rosemary wrote: "Nicola wrote: "Ami wrote: "I understand the Schatt reference, but I'm missing the connection to Schtitt? ..."
Well to me it's 'Shit' and 'Shat'. As in "I really need to go have..."
I didn't read Schtitt as being a good person, he moralised but I don't find that the same thing. I remember him being painted as a disciplinarian who got kicked out under a cloud from his previous employment for his dubious teaching methods. Then again I could have misread it.
Well, I don't have anything else to add to this interesting conversation, but just to say that it has added an entirely new dimension to this section of the book that I was not aware of when I first read it! So much more to think about...
Just a note that I reread the bit about Luther in the toilet and it was definitely a reference to Martin Luther."The defacatory posture is an accepting posture, it occurs to him. Head down, elbows on knees, the fingers laced together behind the knees. Some hunched timeless millennial type of waiting, almost religious. Luthers shoes on the floor beneath the chamber pot, placid, possibly made of wood, Luther's 16th century shoes, awaiting epiphany."
These questions are great, as they make for fascinating discussions and really get you thinking.:)1. What is the role of drugs in the narrative? Is there anyone who can be called an unhappy drug user?
Maybe it's just me, but no one (except for maybe Mario) seems to be happy. And I think their addictions play a big part in that. As for the role of drugs themselves, it seems to be everywhere. Even if they aren't addicts, they're inevitably impacted by those around them that are.
2. We learn something about Hal's father, but is it enough to understand the story behind the story, the connection that we are all seeking?
"The connection we're all seeking," regarding what, exactly? Why Himself and Hal can't seem to communicate? Why Hal is the way he is? Or in regards to Footnote 24, and the film depicting The Year of Glad, or vise versa, whichever you prefer? Regardless, I'd say no, we don't have enough information yet.
3. Did you notice interlacing connections between the plot lines. Actually, right now it is a stretch to call these emerging stories plot lines, but hopefully I will see something more in them soon. NB. I am not revealing anything here because I still need to read the last five or six pages in this week's selection.
Um, aside from the interaction of characters, I'd have to say no. The plot (if there even is one,) is awfully muddy. It's interesting though that although they might not all know each other or come into direct contact, you'll find indirect connections between the characters. (view spoiler)
4. What do you think about Marantne and Steeply's plot line?
This subplot is might intriguing and I desperately want to know more! I get the sense that there's some bad blood between Marathe and Steeply. What's their connection? How does Steeply know about Remy's wife? And I DEFINITELY need to know more about the Separatist movement. I mean, (view spoiler)
5. Tennis practice and football practice play a significant role in the novel page-wise. Do you think it is justifiable? Can you speculate why this part of the novel could be significant?
Hmm.. Excellent question! The two sports seem very significant to the novel, thematically, and I see them not only likened to an addiction of sorts, but also (tennis especially) the back and forth, constant movement that is life. I think that's what Wallace was getting at. There's probably more to it, but that's all I've got.
6. What do you think about the footnotes? How about the footnote about the filmography? It was extensively discussed in the special thread, but do you see its relevance for the para-text (the novel itself)?
I don't mind the navigation between the novel and footnotes, and for most part they're interesting and add a lot to the understanding of the story. Footnote #24 sheds much light on Himself (I couldn't help but pity him,) and though it is rather extensive and somewhat redundant, it's a favorite so far. I can't imagine IJ without it, that's for sure.
Speaking personally, the only thing about the footnotes that I'm finding a little annoying stems from the fact that I'm currently reading from the Nook version, which lacks touch-screen capabilities, and so I have to bookmark a LOT of pages and it's just a real pain.. I MUST find a physical copy ASAP!!
7. Are the footnotes trustworthy?
I.. think so?? Shoot, I sure hope so, otherwise I'll be completely lost!
Dustin wrote: "7. Are the footnotes trustworthy?I.. think so?? Shoot, I sure hope so, otherwise I'll be completely lost! "
Ha! I'm pretty sure I was thinking the same thing when I read that question.
Linda wrote: "Dustin wrote: "7. Are the footnotes trustworthy?I.. think so?? Shoot, I sure hope so, otherwise I'll be completely lost! "
Ha! I'm pretty sure I was thinking the same thing when I read that que..."
Do you still think so Linda? ;-)
Nicola wrote: "Linda wrote: "Dustin wrote: "7. Are the footnotes trustworthy?I.. think so?? Shoot, I sure hope so, otherwise I'll be completely lost! "
Ha! I'm pretty sure I was thinking the same thing when I..."
Yes, I'd be most interested in your thoughts on them now, Linda.:)
I think they are reliable?? I guess it depends on which footnote we are talking about, though. Who is writing the footnotes, is it the same person for all of them? I'm not used to this type of literature analysis!
Linda wrote: "I think they are reliable?? I guess it depends on which footnote we are talking about, though. Who is writing the footnotes, is it the same person for all of them? I'm not used to this type of l..."You mean there are multiple "writers" in the footnotes, like the novel itself??
Dustin wrote: "You mean there are multiple "writers" in the footnotes, like the novel itself??"I have no idea. That was just a question on my part.
Linda wrote: "Dustin wrote: "You mean there are multiple "writers" in the footnotes, like the novel itself??"I have no idea. That was just a question on my part."
Yet something else to think about!:) Coming from Wallace, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that is the case.. Not that I'm complaining or anything..
Linda wrote: "Dustin wrote: "You mean there are multiple "writers" in the footnotes, like the novel itself??"I have no idea. That was just a question on my part."
There definitely are, the footnotes seem to be as varied as the book itself. Most follow the standard 'disembodied' voice type though and the jury is still out for me on how reliable they are. They seem standard footnotes but I'm not sure how far I'd trust anything in this novel ;-)
Nicola wrote: "Linda wrote: "Dustin wrote: "You mean there are multiple "writers" in the footnotes, like the novel itself??"I have no idea. That was just a question on my part."
There definitely are, the foot..."
Now I really don't know! A lot of them have that "disembodied," voice, while others like #304 seem quite lively and to me, it's like DFW is speaking directly to us.. You know? He kind of has that sitting-around-a-campfire feel to him..
John wrote: "Haha, yes KC that scene was great, but short. I hope we get to spend more time with Orin soon.Lots of dialogue in this section -- a large portion of the section was just two extended conversation..."
I also love the scene with Orin, and the mysterious nature of the scene really through me off guard at first. In a good way, of course. Once it became clear I appreciated it more. I'm definitely looking forward to seeing more of him (and the other Incandenza's.)
Out of 2nd week's section, Kate Gompert's sticks out the most and is one of my favorite so far. The way she spoke of depression and addiction is very similar to Erdedy's, but I think she delves much deeper into it. It's incredible!!
"The subsidization of the culture" is a great point. We see this again and again, don't we?
Dustin wrote: "Now I really don't know! A lot of them have that "disembodied," voice, while others like #304 seem quite lively and to me, it's like DFW is speaking directly to us.. You know? He kind of has that sitting-around-a-campfire feel to him.. ."Yes exactly. Other footnotes (perhaps a little futher on I can't quite remember) are reports and emails etc from specific people and still others seem to be technical notes of some sort. The footnotes really are as varied as the book.
Nicola wrote: "Dustin wrote: "Now I really don't know! A lot of them have that "disembodied," voice, while others like #304 seem quite lively and to me, it's like DFW is speaking directly to us.. You know? He kin..."I am starting to see that.:)
Reading the Chunksters
Books mentioned in this topic
A World Lit Only by Fire: The Medieval Mind and the Renaissance: Portrait of an Age (other topics)A Clockwork Orange (other topics)
Dr. Faustus (other topics)
A Clockwork Orange (other topics)
A Clockwork Orange (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
James Joyce (other topics)James Joyce (other topics)
James Joyce (other topics)
This was a HUGE WTF moment for me, too. This even gets explained later!
Sorry I can't comment too much on what you say in these posts. I just feel like you can't go back to page 100 after you've been to page 600 and not give something away accidentally. I'm sticking to silence to avoid spoiling it for you! :-)