Japanese Light Novel Book Club discussion
General Discussion
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General Blah Blah Blah
in 1992 a cross-comparative study in math, To Sum It Up:Case Studies of Education in
Germany, Japan, and the
United States was done b/w US, Japan, and Germany and it stated the following:
Japan = 240
Germany = 184
US= 180
Alex G wrote: "in 1992 a cross-comparative study in math, To Sum It Up:Case Studies of Education in
Germany, Japan, and the
United States was done b/w US, Japan, and Germany and it stated the following:
Japan =..."
Japanese too work! Other jobs in Japan are in the same case and I wish they took more breaks.
Well, it's teacher's school days, so as for students you get theirs by subtracting about 60 (spring, summer, winter breaks) from it. So 180 I think.
Question:Do you guys have the impression that Japanese books translated into English have many "negative sentences" and "passive sentences" relatively?
Japanese often uses them. Double negatives too. Whereas, I heard it's better in English not to use them.
If you don't have the impression, I think translators translate original Japanese texts into positive sentences or active sentences to easily read for English speakers.
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Do you guys have the impression that Japanese books translated into English have many "negative sentences" and "passive sentences" relatively?
Japanese often uses them. Double negatives ..."
I've never noticed, but then again, I've never paid much attention. I have noticed that Japanese books tend to have shorter sentences, shorter paragraphs, and much more description.
It could be that translators change the sentences to be more positive and active. I've just never paid attention before. I'll have to keep an eye out in the future. :)
1Q84 & battle royale are the only japanese novels that i've read in translation and neither use an excessive number of passive nor 2x- sentences.
I see, translators seem to work honestly. :)
I'm thinking about a new book. It is a fiction not a textbook, but people can learn Japanese words as they read it – I'd like to make such a book. Then, I have a question.
Do you guys have difficulty reading text mixed with Japanese letters or have pain?
For example,
人々 [hito bito]: people
河童 [kappa]: A Yokai’s name
あなた [anata]: you
Nowadays 人々 may not believe that 河童 really exists, but they say its name at daily life. Do あなた know Japanese food sushi? It’s bite-sized food that combine fresh fish meat or something with rice. One of them wraps rice around cucumber. They call it “Kappa maki”, yes, because 河童 likes cucumber.
Something like that. (Please ignore if English text itself is strange.)
What do you think?
(Incidentally, I don't think I much mind if Japanese text contains some Cyrillic words, which I don't know at all, with annotation.)
If you do a book like the example you give just now I think it will do.I do know certain Japanesse sentance because of anime. It more like I memorize the word and I combined it to sentances.
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The only problem I can see is issues with when the Japanese and the English grammar don't agree.
In Japanese, the phrase "Do you know Japanese food, like sushi?" (I think that's what you were trying to say) would be "寿司などの日本の食べ物を知っていますか。", right? I don't know how true this is, but in my Japanese minor I was always told never to use "あなた" and that it isn't really an equivalent for the English "you."
@Ask, Thank you! How do you learn Japanese sentences with anime? Subtitles?@Selena, Thank you! As you say, Japanese and English are very different. Not only grammar but also thoughts and the way we build sentences (Not grammatical meaning. For example, Japanese language usually speak at first "reason" (Because), "condition" (If/When), etc, then speak main ideas).
I understand your comment about "あなた", you're right. I'd like to make a book that enables readers to read Japanese to begin with. I think, when you speak or write Japanese, you don't need to know the relation between "you" and "あなた" perhaps, but when you read Japanese, you need to know that "あなた" means something like "you" even if it's not really correct.
@Fanta .. I think it is a good idea for people to learn reading Japanese, memorize words and get accustomed to the Japanese characters... but not so much when comes to actually learning the language...I think it's perfect for people like me who don't know how to write the words as much as saying them...
Since my vocabulary was originally built through anime ...
Well, It's true that with time, I learned multiple kanji and their different pronunciation through seeing & hearing them multiple time like (恋 - 愛 - 人 - 友) but again the amount of kanji I learned like that in one month is not enough to learn writing Japanese before 50 (I'm 18 BTW)...
Also how will u deal with the particles... like が for an example ...Usually, there is no English equivalent for the particles but they are used a lot in the Japanese language and Japanese reader are bound to bump into them... （＾_＾）
@Mohamed, Thank you! I didn't know "particle" also has meaning in grammar. Apparently Japanese language calls it "助詞" (joshi). As you say, for example "が" and "は" are very difficult to understand. I think almost all Japanese people don't understand them but sense. :)Writing Japanese letters is a difficult subject too.
Fanta wrote: "Question:Do you guys have the impression that Japanese books translated into English have many "negative sentences" and "passive sentences" relatively?
Japanese often uses them. Double negatives ..."
The use of double negatives in English is subtle. Unless you have a very specific meaning that is particularly enabled by a double it might be best to avoid using one. They are used colloquially, and they are used idiomatically, but rarely otherwise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_...
As for passive to active conversion: It is often the case in English that, for sentences which can be expressed either passively or actively, that the active form of the sentence is the most common one. When a passive sentence is used in such a situation it is generally the case that 'passivity' is being emphasized.
For example, when a mistake is made it is common to say "I made a mistake" or "He made a mistake." If instead "A mistake was made." is used it will usually be interpreted to mean that the speaker/author is specifically drawing attention to the fact that no one is being assigned blame. The uncommon form is used for special emphasis.
My sense from reading and listening to Japanese is that the opposite convention prevails; that passive sentences are generally the norm and active sentences are used to apply strength to a statement. If this is the case then a neutral passive sentence in Japanese might be translated as a neutral active sentence in English to avoid confusion. A literal translation ends up being less accurate because the conventions in the two languages are different.
仕方がない - passive / neutral
誰も何もできない - active / strong
@James, Thank you for your comments.James wrote: "If this is the case then a neutral passive sentence in Japanese might be translated as a neutral active sentence in English to avoid confusion. A literal translation ends up being less accurate because the conventions in the two languages are different."
This is just what I guess. I still can't think with English from the beginning, so I have no choice but to translate my Japanese thought or writing when I express them in English. At that time, as you say, I have to be careful with a literal translation.
Fanta wrote: "I'm thinking about a new book. It is a fiction not a textbook, but people can learn Japanese words as they read it – I'd like to make such a book."that's a pretty innovative idea.
(btw, did you mean "Cyrillic" like the script for russian/slavic languages or "roman" for the script of western/northern-european-based languages?)
do you want to write a book of fiction in english and including kanji/kana is just an added bonus? or do you want to write for japanese learners. if the former, then just go for it. it doesn't matter that english speakers wouldn't read it because some would. plus, you said that you don't mind reading "cyrillic" w/annotations and i think that sufficiently motivated english readers would feel the same way for kanji/kana. you could also hyperlink to a definition and pronunciation key (your own web page or translate.google.com or some other website). furthermore, i don't think it matters so much whether the japanese and english fit together grammatically. the more important thing is to convey the correct feeling and idea.
if you want to write for japanese learners, then--after reading what others have written--you could limit your book to japanese nouns. it might be useful to have the kana next to the kanji (manga targeted to elementary school kids already does that).i would think that it would be best to match the difficulty (both english and japanese) to a certain grade level.
although using nouns only would have limited utility beyond beginners, i think it could fulfill a role at the elementary school level. after all, it's boring to drill and practice all the time. my daughter is reading novellas in spanish after 6 years in elementary school. so, after a basic level of japanese, you'd want to switch to using phrases. in her 3rd year of mandarin, her class started to concentrate on chinese characters. they also used a website, which had simple--and somewhat cheesy--animation as well as a whole slew of fiction books.
whatever you do, my daughter and i would be happy to be guinea pigs for your new venture.
@Alex, Thank you! As for "Cyrillic" I meant Russian language. I think many English speakers aren't familiar with Japanese letters at all as Japanese people with Russian letters. We rarely see it and don't know how to pronounce it (we can't even guess it).I want to write for not only learners but ordinary readers, in short, bonus, so I'm worried about pain caused by English and Japanese together.
Again, thank you for your many ideas and information!
Fanta wrote: "@Alex, Thank you! As for "Cyrillic" I meant Russian language. I think many English speakers aren't familiar with Japanese letters at all as Japanese people with Russian letters. We rarely see it an..."got it.
Fanta wrote: "I want to write for not only learners but ordinary readers, in short, bonus..."
go for it! がんばって!
How do English speakers write the sound of a word in other language when they explain it to those who don't know? For example, ellas. That is a Spanish word and the pronunciation is here. Then, do they write temporary words like "a juss" or use the International Phonetic Alphabet? (How do you tell someone the sound of ellas with just words?)
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One way is saying "rhymes with _____". Another is a pronunciation guide like you see in dictionaries. Those are the most common ways I've seen.
Selena wrote: "Fanta wrote: "How do English speakers write the sound of a word in other language when they explain it to those who don't know? For example, ellas. That is a Spanish word and the pronunciation is h..."A pronunciation guide is a special letter, right? Like prəˌnənsēˈāSH(ə)n. Is it easy to type with the US keyboard? (If not, I feel it's hard to explain a sound of other language even though rough explanation.)
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I'll be honest. I can't read any of that lol.
No, those aren't easy to type on a US keyboard. Usually, when the average person types pronunciation guides, it tends to be more like this: "pruh-nuhn-shee-aa-SHUN" (and that's probably totally wrong, lol)
Fanta wrote: "Selena wrote: "Fanta wrote: "How do English speakers write the sound of a word in other language when they explain it to those who don't know? For example, ellas. That is a Spanish word and the pro..."Phonetic notation systems exist for describing words to english speakers, but they are not used for everyday writing. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoneti...
Phonetic characters are not easy to produce with a normal keyboard and are unfamiliar to most people. In normal conversation, or normal newspaper / magazine / novel writing word sounds are described in the way Selena described, by comparing it to a more common word whose sound is well known.
English is very different from Japanese in that there is no concept of a ‘foreign loan word’ in English. Because English is composed of words from many different languages, native English speakers can easily mimic the pronunciation of words in all other European languages, which are the source of almost all foreign words that are encountered here. Chinese, arabic, african, and most aboriginal language words are very difficult for most english speakers and english almost never imports words from those languages. Japanese words are not difficult for the most part, though english speakers will not be able to reproduce pitch or precise vowel duration. つ is difficult, and sometimes らりるれろ are difficult, depending on the word. There are very few words in English which come from Japanese.
Selena wrote: "it tends to be more like this: "pruh-nuhn-shee-aa-SHUN""Could you tell me online dictionary sites where pronunciation guides are written like that? I usually use Oxford Dictionaries, but this uses special letters.
James wrote: "sometimes らりるれろ are difficult"
I'm surprised. :) Japanese people are said to have difficulty pronouncing l and r differently because sounds like l and r in Japanese are only one, らりるれろ. L and r are same for them.
I don't think any online-dictionaries do it that way. It's mostly because English speakers don't generally think with special letters so we just try to fully spell out what each syllable would sound like if on it's own.The L and R stuff confuses me a bit, because they are fundamentally formed different in English.
Basically R is formed with the back of the tongue and a L is formed with the tip. You also roll your tongue off the roof of your mouth moving towards the back as you release on R's. I don't think this is rolling your R's though I think that's something else.
edit: googled it, out rolling your R's is something completely different.
There is additional nuance too like I feel that L's tends to be more accented than R's but the majority of the difference is just where the tongue touches the roof of the mouth.
I guess thinking about it, it might just be that you are thinking of saying English words only using Japanese syllables instead of saying the English words themselves if that makes any sense.
Aaron wrote: "The L and R stuff confuses me a bit, because they are fundamentally formed different in English."I think there are some reasons about the L and R problem for Japanese.
We learn English from junior high school, where teachers often don't teach how to pronounce correctly and move your tongue. Students pronounce as they hear and pronounce Japanese words.
And, we have many loanwords, which are pronounced like Japanese words. In other words, we are used to pronouncing other language's word like Japanese and tend to do. For example, water is woo-ohh-ta-ahh (like 4 syllables), business is be-zee-ne-soo. Those pronunciation are expected except for when we talk to English speakers.
Simply, there are few occasions in Japan where people hear and speak English.
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Santa comes to me in the form of gifts from friends and relatives, and goes to others when I give gifts to friends and relatives. :)
That, and in the form of the silly little things that my mom puts in my stocking when I come home for Christmas. :3 I'm hoping for another goofy pair of socks this year (yes, we're weird lol).
Selena wrote: "Santa comes to me in the form of gifts from friends and relatives"I found out the truth.
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I heard from news. Is Pokemon Go really popular?
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Around here it is. I went to the park to go catch some Pokemon and there were about 50 other people with the same idea. :)
Selena wrote: "Fanta wrote: "I heard from news. Is Pokemon Go really popular?"Around here it is. I went to the park to go catch some Pokemon and there were about 50 other people with the same idea. :)"
Incredible! XD
That sounds very fun. I'm wondering what makes them so excited.
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In Japan, about 20 years ago Pokemon began as a video game, and then the TV program started. When and how did it come to your area?
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It seems like Japan.You loved Sailer Moon, didn't you? If memory serves, it earlier began in Japan than Pokemon. Is it same as your case? Or, did Sailer Moon come after Pokemon?
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Though I didn't know, Japan has exported its contents for many years. (I thought it did from 2000.)
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Selena wrote: "Many of us grew up on Pokémon, so it has a lot of nostalgia for us. Plus, despite the bugs, it's fun and easy to play. And it brings to life something many of us dreamed of as kids: "real" Pokémon ..."my daughter's in middle school and several of her friends got into the pokéman card game and now one of her friends beta tested pokéman go. my daughter gave it a run.
Selena wrote: "We in the US were getting the Osamu Tezuka anime when my mom was a kid. My mom remembers Astro Boy."Great! Even my generation didn't see many of his works, just know some famous titles.
Is Pikachu popular in the US too?
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Alex G wrote: "my daughter's in middle school and several of her friends got into the pokéman card game and now one of her friends beta tested pokéman go. my daughter gave it a run."Don't you play Pokemon Go yourself? I heard even an old married couple play, walking their dog.
Selena wrote: "Pikachu is probably the one Pokemon everyone recognizes, even if they don't know what Pokemon is. :)"Then, I think it could be a rare character in the game. If people knew a place where they could catch Pikachu, they would rush into there!
Miutsu too?
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Selena wrote: "I'm not sure what a Miutsu is."That was Mewtwo. :) It looks white. I heard it's said to be the strongest.
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Has the goodreads' design changed? I'm getting lost and wandering. lol
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Yeah, it got an update. I wish I could customize the main page a bit, but they don't even have the "hide" option for some of the stuff I always hid before (like the recommendation thing).
Japanese Light Novel Book Club
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Yeah, Japanese schools have more days of school than American ones in general as well. I looked it up a while back, but I don't remember the exact numbers.