The Pickwick Club discussion
Dombey and Son
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Dombey, Chapters 11 - 13
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I finally managed to finish reading these chapters. I agree that Blimber's academy isn't malicious, instead, rather poorly managed due to its unrealistic academic pursuits. The students are well fed, not physically abused, however, a lack of warmth and reasonableness in the expectations of the students makes it appear a more negative place. I imagine it was pretty much standard for the time - to show a cold exterior where adults forgot that kids were kids.I also like Florence, a lot. I agree with all the comments though. Perhaps she is too goody-goody, however, I think she'll show her true colours in time. She is just behaving the way most of the children from that era and social standing were expected to. I'm sure she'll retaliate when she isn't so dependent or is pushed too far. At the moment, Paul is filling that void. If that changes and she is left completely alone, with no show of affection or compassion from anyone, then we might see some fight.
For me, and knowing Dickens, things seem too 'comfortable' for Florence and Paul at the moment. I'm waiting for something to show their true strength.
Kate wrote: "rather poorly managed due to its unrealistic academic pursuits."Are they really unrealistic? Given high expectations and demands, many students do much better than anyone initially expected they could. Most of have seen this with truly gifted teachers who got incredible academic results out of quite ordinary students.
Hi Everyman.Working them extraordinary hours is unrealistic, I think. The workload is what I was thinking of when I talked about unrealistic expectations. However, I think for a teacher to achieve extraordinary things with any student comes with a good bond and mutual respect which I don't recognise at Blimber's academy.
Everyman wrote: "Kim wrote: ""They knew no rest from the pursuit of stony-hearted verbs, savage noun-substantives, inflexible syntactic passages, and ghosts of exercises that appeared to them in their dreams. ..."..."
Maybe it is not just the quantity of learning and the process of cramming that Dickens is objecting to, but also the fact that such an education does not leave a lot of room for creativity and imagination. I mean one of the reasons why Paul repeatedly wishes to be allowed to converse with old Glubb is probably that the old man had told him imaginative stories about the sea, about mythical creatures living in it etc.
And sometimes you needn't taste the grapes yourself in order to know they are sour - just look at the faces of those who tasted them ;-)
Kate wrote: " where adults forgot that kids were kids."The idea that children are not just minor versions of adults is relatively new, I'd say. Just compare how children were generally represented in old drawings and illustrations - like adults, just smaller. It's probably since the beginning of the 20th century that people came to think of childhood as something not only different in quantity but also in quality from adulthood.
Kate wrote: "However, I think for a teacher to achieve extraordinary things with any student comes with a good bond and mutual respect which I don't recognise at Blimber's academy. ."I totally agree with you here, Kate. And yet I think that Dr. Blimber was, by the standards of those days, quite nice with his students. His only fault is that he did not perceive them as children and maybe also that he conceived of learning as cramming, as learning by rote instead of as discovering and finding your own approach towards a subject matter.
Yes, I agree with you on both posts Tristram.
Kate wrote: "Yes, I agree with you on both posts Tristram."And I agree with your agreeing with me, Kate. So that's hard for E-man to counter.
Tristram wrote: "Kate wrote: "Yes, I agree with you on both posts Tristram."And I agree with your agreeing with me, Kate. So that's hard for E-man to counter."
Lol.
Peter, I just saw your comment about Leonard Cohen. I just had to say that I couldn't agree more! That is also one of my favourite songs of his - well all of them actually. We had the privilege of seeing him in Dublin twice and in Belfast once, during his relatively recent tour of 'Old Ideas'. I LOVE the man. So delighted that he is touring again with his new album 'Popular Problems'. Aged 80, he is like a fine wine: he improves with age. Our whole family adore him. Sorry that this is not strictly on Dombey, but I'm taking the liberty of hopping on the bandwagon as you neatly tied his lyrics into the story earlier! :)
Hilary wrote: "Peter, I just saw your comment about Leonard Cohen. I just had to say that I couldn't agree more! That is also one of my favourite songs of his - well all of them actually. We had the privilege o..."Leonard Cohen is a treasure. Believe it or not, there are many Canadians who do not know much about him, his music or his writing. I hope his voice cradles us both for many years to come. Halleluah!
Kate wrote: "However, I think for a teacher to achieve extraordinary things with any student comes with a good bond and mutual respect which I don't recognise at Blimber's academy. "As a former teacher, I'm eager to agree with you, and that's certainly an ideal. But actually I think some teachers can get great work out of students without that much of a bond between them. If not, then how can we expect, for one example, the students in Harvard University to do excellent work in some of their lecture course which have hundreds of students in them?
I do, by the way, also think that Paul did have a bond with Miss Blimber, who was his teacher rather than Dr. Blimber. But that doesn't speak to the other students in the school.
Eric Blair (George Orwell) certainly didn't have much of a bond with any of his teachers, if you read "Such, Such were the Days," but he turned out to be intellectually very capable. So it can be done.
Tristram wrote: "Kate wrote: " where adults forgot that kids were kids."The idea that children are not just minor versions of adults is relatively new, I'd say. Just compare how children were generally represente..."
Right.
Tristram wrote: "Kate wrote: "Yes, I agree with you on both posts Tristram."And I agree with your agreeing with me, Kate. So that's hard for E-man to counter."
Pah. Piece of cake.
[g]
Everyman wrote: "Kate wrote: "However, I think for a teacher to achieve extraordinary things with any student comes with a good bond and mutual respect which I don't recognise at Blimber's academy. "As a former t..."
Sorry,this is not really about the novel, but about teachers but then we don't really have such an no-off-topic-policy here: I must say that having children of my own surely has changed my attitude as a teacher. Whereas formerly I used to be very consequential and demanding, I have grown a bit more lenient nowadays. For example as to homework, I can understand that children sometimes don't really feel like doing it, and so I have introduced the rule that once per term a student might not do his homework without being quartered, tarred and feathered for his remissness. Call me a doating old man, but I think once you have children of your own you are growing softer.
That's so true, Tristram. I remember a GP friend of ours used to be very frustrated when the same parents would bring in their children again and again. It was almost inevitably colic and he could not understand all the fuss. THEN, their first child was born. She suffered from, you guessed it, horrendous colic. His whole attitude changed towards those worried parents. Especially where young children were concerned, he adopted a come-one-come-all approach.
Everyman wrote: "Kate wrote: "However, I think for a teacher to achieve extraordinary things with any student comes with a good bond and mutual respect which I don't recognise at Blimber's academy. "As a former t..."
True but perhaps the intrinsic value was already strong in their constitution or they were goal driven regardless of who was teaching. I know I still love to learn, regardless of who is teaching me, as it's for my personal want and interest.
Tristram wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Kate wrote: "However, I think for a teacher to achieve extraordinary things with any student comes with a good bond and mutual respect which I don't recognise at Blimber's academy...."Yes fitting in homework is hard for a lot of students however I have warned my year 10 class that next year their homework is going to be relentless. Year 11 often complain about there being such a big gap between the junior and senior years.
Kate wrote: "Yes fitting in homework is hard for a lot of students however I have warned my year 10 class that next year their homework is going to be relentless. "Meanwhile, there is an increasing amount of research which shows that homework is often destructive to quality learning.
Plus, homework will often result in the parents' sitting down and doing it ;-)
So true. There is a big move here to scrap homework altogether, precisely for those reasons .
Tristram wrote: "I must say that having children of my own surely has changed my attitude as a teacher. Whereas formerly I used to be very consequential and demanding", Teachers are grumps.
Oh, I almost forgot, doating old man.
I have to really push my son to do homework because he hates doing it. My daughter is starting to get difficult about it when I used to have no issues. Problem at our high school is that most homework is assessment work, in the junior school. They have a lot of homework that is catch up work from the day's lesson, in senior high, because they haven't been focused enough to do it in class time. It's not an easy situation and I'm sure it never will be.
Like everyone else, I cracked up at the, "nobody like me," "I am glad of that," dialog between Mrs. Pipchin and Paul.Yet another hideous school. At least, as Dickens sees it. However, the school personnel aren't cruel, and the boys are fed well.
So, what do people make of Mr. Toots. I can't really believe that too much studying will addle anyone's brains.
Florence Dombey asked to have lessons. That's impressive. And, even more impressive is her project to help Paul. True, her goal is a properly feminine one, by Victorian standards--helping someone else. But still... She's showing great determination, and also intellectual capacity. Self-taught, self-motivated Latin and Greek...? Assimilated well enough to teach someone else? I'm impressed.
"Quartettes of the most tormenting and excruciating nature..." I wonder who the composer was. Did Dickens like classical music at all? I note that Carker, an unsympathetic character, shares that opinion of the music. Dickens isn't giving all the sympathetic characters his own opinions, the way amateur writers will.
Yes, it's clear that Mr. Dombey sends Walter to Barbados because he is angry at being reminded at Florence. Totally irrational, and Dickens does a magnificent job of showing it without spelling it out.
So, the other Mr. Carker was an embezzler. Why did he retain a job? Will that ever be expanded upon, or was it just a random act of charity on the part of Mr. Dombey, senior?
How long is Walter going to stay in the West Indies? I was hoping to get to know him better.
So, at the end of this installment, Florence and Paul seem to have found some stability, while Walter is tossed into unknown lands.
Mr.
Keep your seat belt on Elisa. You are coming to more big events soon.
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It sounds a lot like a literary equivalent of Navy Seals training. My nephew tried that, but flunked out. But those who finish the program have extraordinary skills and strength, both physical and mental.
Other than Toots, who I don't see as representative of a Blimber student, we haven't seen any graduates of his program, have we? So we don't know whether they are failures or incredible successes. Oh, Dickens claims otherwise as a generic plaint, but that could just because he doesn't have the right stuff to have succeeded in Blimber's academy, so feels the need to dis it, which is a common sour grapes response of those who aren't good enough to succeed where others are.