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Kristin Lavransdatter by Sigrid Undset (dely, Paula, Terri, Chrissie and Dhanaraj)
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Oct 17, 2014 05:17AM
Well then, we'll just have to write a "juicy bits for Chrissie" report every now and then :)
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I've been working 7 days a week and am behind on my reading. I'm on chapter 5 of Part 1 but will try to catch up soon. So far, it's not grabbing me but I'm going to keep at it.
Giorgia, yes, I would love that. Mu chuckle for the day.Paula, don't feel bad. Most people have a life outside GR that in fact cannot be ignored. Oh boy, it was only the first chapter that drew me....so maybe it will improve for you even if it went downhill for me. Let's hope so.
Dhanaraj wrote: "I have completed first five chapters. And I can say this much: I love this book. I am really living in the 14th century Norway and to me till now the characters seem real. No character seems to be exaggerated. It is not that I am an Undset's fan and so I see everything positively. It really is 14th century Norway and Undset has presented as exact as possible. "Perhaps it isn't the characters that are exaggerated but some details/happenings in the story. I'm pretty sure the author did it by purpose but after a while these details "sing out of tune" (clash?) in my opinion. This makes the characters less real and some situations aren't that believable. Also, for my tastes there isn't enough psychological insight. I'm still wondering how it could happen that (view spoiler) (I don't remember in which chapter we find this).
In one of my first posts (#45) I wrote that Kristin was a girl following moral values; no I'm doubting about this. She may have faith but her moral values are weak. I can't empathize for her (sometimes I would slap her from dawn to dusk) but sometimes I justify her telling to myself that she is still so young, inexperienced and naive. I will wait to finish the third part of book 1 to have a clearer opinion about her (I hadn't time to read today).
I don't know, perhaps I'm reading it with the mind of a woman of the 20th century so I can't relate to Kristin's behaviors; some happenings or thoughts can be related, in my opinion, to a woman of today. Perhaps also because of this the whole story doesn't seem real. But also if she would be a woman of the 20th century, she isn't behaving in a way I would accept and I can't empathize for such people.
Do you really think that women behaved that way in the 14th century? Some behaviors of Kristin seem strange for that time.
Chrissie wrote: "If this book was also meant to leave a serious religious message, aren't the melodramatics a bit distracting? Just what is going through my head. ..."I think the author added them by purpose in order to underline the difference between a life following moral values and a life without them. Perhaps she wants to emphasize some events in order that later the reader sees better the differences between the two different ways of living.
Or perhaps she wants to emphasize the fact that people are human beings with their weaknessess and that only faith in God can help to overcome moments of weakness.
Of course I could be wrong.
Dely, I don't think moral standards need be tied to religion. You can demand a high moral standard of yourself and still be without religion. I do not know the author's intentions. Is she trying to stress the importance of morals or the Catholic faith? Probably the Catholic faith since that was her faith. Furthermore, this being a book of historical fiction, here was a good opportunity to speak for Catholicism.
@ Chrissie: The author was not Catholic when she wrote the novel. She was born as a Lutheran. But her parents were not religious. Sigrid herself thought of herself as an agnostic. It was only later that she converted to Catholicism.
@ dely: I can not answer to you now. But having read just five chapters I will say that I did not find anything extra ordinary hard to believe fat. May be, there is the appearance of the River Elf or Forest elf. Even that I did not find anything to be unbelievable. As I read a book I go into that setting and that time. I am an involved reader. I felt myself walking with Kristin in the woods alone with the horse. She having heard of stories of such elves could naturally associate anything that happens with such stories. That is absolutely reasonable. In our country, till they found a cure for Chicken pox people believed that it was the anger of goddess. Some said that the goddess visited the house to impart the disease. When science had not yet touched the world, such beliefs are normal. May be, if you read from today's perspective, it might seem foolish. But it is exactly for that, I admire Sigrid. She controlled herself to passing judgment on the 14th century characters. She let them roam free as they are. About her decisions to marry Erland: I will let you know what I think of it when I come across it.
Chrissie wrote: "Dely, I don't think moral standards need be tied to religion. You can demand a high moral standard of yourself and still be without religion. I do not know the author's intentions. Is she trying ..."
Me neither. In fact I hope the author won't add the message that faith and moral values are linked.
Dhanaraj wrote: "@ dely: I can not answer to you now. But having read just five chapters I will say that I did not find anything extra ordinary hard to believe fat. May be, there is the appearance of the River Elf ..."No, I'm not talking about the dwarfs or superstitious beliefs, they are totally acceptable.
There are some details about the behavior of Kristin (and some other characters) that don't seem real. Perhaps they are in the second part of the book, I don't remember very well.
She controlled herself to passing judgment on the 14th century characters. She let them roam free as they are.
She doesn't judge but till now it seems to me that she has written it with the perspective of a modern woman. I don't know how life really was in the 14th century in Norway but there is something that doesn't convince me. There are some things that seem out of place as if the author has added some details but from a modern point of view.
I have finished the first book. Till now for me it is just an ok read.Book 1, part 3, chapter 7: (view spoiler)
Book 1, part 3, chapter 8: (view spoiler)
Giorgia wrote: "Hey Dely, I went and looked that part up [spoilers removed]"Ah, ok, because I hadn't that feeling. One sentence is a little bit different(view spoiler)
How is now the subdivision in your edition? Book 2 starts by me with "part 4" as if it would be a continuation of the first three parts in book 1.
I'm enjoying this discussion. I read this book a few years back and can agree with many of the comments here. Dely, Book 2 is a continuation of Book 1. In essence, all the books are really just one long book.
Petra wrote: "Dely, Book 2 is a continuation of Book 1. In essence, all the books are really just one long book. "Yes, I know. The problem is that our editions have different subdivisions and so what in my edition is part 1 could be chapter 1 in another edition; and what is chapter 3 in my edition could be part 3 in another one. Yes, it is confusing. I was asking in order to add the right subdivision before the spoiler tags. In my edition the second book starts with part 4 instead of part 1 so I was curious to know how the other editions are.
By the way, I think I will stop reading it for a while. First of all because in this way also the other members can finish the first book otherwise we risk to miss some messages or to make confusion among spoilers and so on. At least, with the same pace, we can carry on the discussion with less differences in the plot.
The second reason is because I want to dig into Norway's history and traditions. I want to know more about it in order to understand better some parts that aren't convincing me.
Dhanaraj wrote: "@ Chrissie: The author was not Catholic when she wrote the novel. She was born as a Lutheran. But her parents were not religious. Sigrid herself thought of herself as an agnostic. It was only later..."Thank you for explaining. When did she become Catholic? Maybe she was pondering such issues before she actually became Catholic? I do know that now the primary religion In Norway and Sweden is Lutheranism, and also in the 1920s. Do you think she is leaving a religious or a moral message? I do know that the book is classified as Christian literature.
dely wrote: "Giorgia wrote: "Chrissie ~ super spoiler ..."In my edition she hadn't been raped whilst she was bethroted to Lavrans :/ Fault of the translation or I didn't understand? There is written that she ..."
You are a very observant careful reader. I admire your tenacity, EVEN as you see points in the book that make it unbelievable. I just loose interest.
So many authors writing in the beginning of the 20th Century were not allowed to state clearly "delicate/controversial" issues - vulgar behavior, sex, etc. I am thinking of Hemingway. He even had to remove swear words. Boy have styles changed.
Chrissie wrote: "You are a very observant careful reader. I admire your tenacity, EVEN as you see points in the book that make it unbelievable. I just loose interest. "Thanks. I could be considered also fussy and finicky :D
There are some things that stop the flowing of the narration. Perhaps it's only fault of the translation. Another example (I don't add the spoiler tags because it is written in the first chapter of the first part): Father Eirik had a lot of children made with three different women...this isn't very Catholic so I don't understand why devoted habitants go in his church. Lutheran priests, if I don't remember wrong, can marry and have a family, not Catholic priests and a bishop would never accept something like this. But also the faithful Catholics wouldn't go to such a priest. Lutheranism started around 1500 so it's not very probable that Father Eirik was a Lutheran. Perhaps some remaining of Paganism? Eirik is also a hypocrite because in part 3, chapter 7 (view spoiler).
In these days I will study as much as possible about: Christianity in Norway, Lutheranism, Paganism and Vikings. (I'm too old to study again!)
I wouldn't be su fussy if there was only one strange thing in the book and perhaps I should stop asking myself too many questions but now I want to finish it and to do it I must understand.
I think many of you were aware of the translations and the redaction done to it initially. That is obviously my own misunderstanding. I assumed that the information contained in my book were given in your books too. But now, I feel that it is not so. And I am sorry to say it now. But I will just quote some four paragraphs from the translator's note of my edition (the recent edition of KRISTIN LAVRANSDATTER).Here is the quote:
This translation from the Norwegian is based on the first edition of Sigrid Undset's epic trilogy, Kransen, Husfrue, and Korset, which appeared in 1920, 1921, and 1922, respectively......
The three volumes of Kristin Lavransdatter were translated into English in the 1920s, but the translators chose to impose an artificially archaic style on the text, which completely misrepresented Undset's beautifully clear prose. They filled her novels with stilted dialogue (using words such as 'tis, 'twas, I trow, thee, thou, hath, and doth), and they insisted on a convoluted syntax.
Nowadays the role of the translator is different. Accuracy and faithfulness to the original tone and style are both expected and required. In Norwegian Undset writes in a straightforward, almost plain style, yet she can be quite lyrical, especially in her descriptions of nature. The beauty of the mountainous Norwegian landscape is lovingly revealed in Undset's lucid prose. In her research for Kristin Lavransdatter, she immersed herself in the customs and traditions of medieval Norway. She was meticulous about using the proper terms for clothing, housewares, and architectural features, but she did not force archaic speech patterns on her characters. To readers of the twenty-first century, the dialogue may sound slightly formal, but it is never incomprehensible.
Misunderstandings and omissions also marred the English translation from the 1920s. One crucial passage in The Wreath was even censored, perhaps thought to be too sexually explicit for readers at the time. Most serious of all, certain sections of The Wife, scattered throughout the novel and totaling approximately eighteen pages, were deleted. Many are key passages, such as Kristin's lengthy dialogue with Saint Olav in Christ Church, Gunnulf's meditation on the mixture of jealousy and love he has always felt toward Erland, and Ragnfrid's anguished memory of her betrothal to Lavrans. I have restored all of these passages, which offer the reader essential insight into the underlying spiritual and psychological turmoil of the story......
@ Chrissie: The novels were published between the years 1920 - 1922. Sigrid became a Catholic in 1924. That is why I had earlier said that in preparation for writing this fiction she was engaged in reading about medieval Norway which included reading about saints. This could have influenced her coming to the Catholic Church. This is generally accepted.
Dely, you questions and reasoning sure makes sense to me! You are NOT fussy or finicky, just thinking logically. Maybe one doesn't have to go to school to study. We can still learn through reading - in what ever subject attracts us.
@ dely: About Fr. Eirik: I think, I will give the information given in the 'Notes' section of my edition. I quote:
"Christianity was introduced in Norway in the 11th century, but it wasn't until 1270 that celibacy for priests became part of Norwegian Church law. Even then, it was not strictly enforced, particularly in the countryside."
P.S. I think, I have the best edition in hand with a an interesting introduction, an informative Translators Note, two maps explaining the geography, explanatory notes at the end, and a list of Holy Days. Lol...
Dhanaraj wrote: "P.S. I think, I have the best edition in hand with a an interesting introduction, an informative Translators Note, two maps explaining the geography, explanatory notes at the end, and a list of Holy Days. Lol... "Do you know that we could hate you for this!? :D I am looking for everything on the internet.
My edition hasn't even an index!
Thanks to your last message I can avoid to look for Christianity in Norway!
My edition is from 1942, translated by Evelina Bocca. I should compare it with other Italian translations. Giorgia, tell me about your edition.
In mine there isn't an archaic language but the spiritual and psychological turmoil isn't that present or only in a superficial way and this is what I miss.
@ dely: What I said was about the English translation. But if the Italian translation that you have is based on the English translation or if it had followed same norms in translation (omissions), then it might not be that good to hear.
@ Dhanaraj - The note to the translation you've posted is very interesting. The translator of my edition must be of the same "let's make it more archaic" school. The prose isn't particularly noteworthy and I particularly hate the excessive use of ... in the dialogues.
About Christianity in Norway (translation made by me with the help of google):However, Norway (and parts of Sweden that until the sixteenth or seventeenth century were part of Norway [Jämtland, Härjedalen, Bohuslän, Idre and Sarne]) was not converted to what we normally think of when we say Christianity (ie the Catholic church or Greek/Russian Orthodox) until the fifteenth century, when Norway became part of Catholic Denmark. Before that, the Christians are the so-called Celtic/Norse Christians, and had a faith like that of Gnostic Templars. When the Norwegian kings during 1030-1450 canonized the people and distributed titles of bishops, the pope was naturally furious, because this was considered his role. They weren't Catholics and did not respond to the Pope in any way. The Norwegian priests also could get married and have children, something unheard in the Catholic world.
The Celtic church and his Gnostic faith were soon defeated and replaced by Catholicism on the British Isles, but only after the Christians had successfully converted Norway, and for several hundred years, Norway was the only country in "Celtic-Christian" in the world. But after that, most of the clergy were killed by the so-called Gnostic plague we know as the Black Death in 1349 and the following years, because its members were involved in the treatment of patients, reason for which they were most exposed than others to the mysterious Black Death, and were replaced by Danish Catholic priests when the two countries were united in 1450.
This so-called-and little-known Celtic Christianity explains why you can find only wooden churches in Norway and parts of Sweden, and only wooden churches built before 1349. Catholics did not build wooden churches.
The explanation for this is obviously that Norway was never Christianized, to how we commonly mean. In 1030, the Norwegians were officially converted to a faith that mixed Pagan believe, including the veneration of the Sun, and a form of Gnostic Christianity. When they met the Danish Catholic priests in the fifteenth century, who attempted to convert them to Catholicism, many of them reacted with violence.
The ancient pagan religious practices were common until the seventeenth century, and perhaps even to the eighteenth.
I know, it is very long but it is interesting. There was much more so I tried to do a summit with the most important things. It seems that because of this religious past Norway is famous for Black Metal and has a lot of the most famous groups.
For who knows Italian here's the link: http://bigpav.wordpress.com/2010/04/1...
I will look later for Vikings!
Giorgia wrote: "@ Dhanaraj - The note to the translation you've posted is very interesting. The translator of my edition must be of the same "let's make it more archaic" school. The prose isn't particularly notew..."Who is the translator of your edition? Do you know also the year of publication?
I'm not at home and won't be able to look it up before tomorrow! I'll let you know.
I think. .. O think I read somewhere that the volume I have was published around 1947. .. but I may remember it wrongly.
I think. .. O think I read somewhere that the volume I have was published around 1947. .. but I may remember it wrongly.
Dhanaraj wrote: "@ Chrissie: The novels were published between the years 1920 - 1922. Sigrid became a Catholic in 1924. That is why I had earlier said that in preparation for writing this fiction she was engaged in..."OK, in 1924 she became Catholic, ie two years after writing the books. I am not sure I am following you. Are you saying that working on the novels and her own Catholicism are intertwined? Is that your point? I am sorry, I bet if we were talking in person this confusion would not happen!
Note to everyone: I have withdrawn from this readalong due to health reasons. I'll be following your discussion with interest. It's lively and quite interesting!
Terri, sorry you are not feeling well enough to participate! Best wishes.
@ Chrisssie: That is exactly my point. I have collected it from some of her biographical details.
@ Terri: Take good care of yourself. Will remember you in prayers.
Dhanaraj, good b/c that is exactly what I was trying to get across too.
Terri wrote: "Note to everyone: I have withdrawn from this readalong due to health reasons. I'll be following your discussion with interest. It's lively and quite interesting!"Don't worry. I hope you will feel soon better ;)
Dhanaraj, this could interest you: "There is also a chapel dedicated to St. Olaf in the church of Sant'Ambrogio e Carlo al Corso in Rome. Its altarpiece was a painting of the saint, shown as the Viking king defeating a dragon, the gift presented to Pope Leo XIII in 1893 for the golden jubilee of his ordination as a bishop by his Papal chamberlain, Baron Wilhelm Wedel-Jarlsberg.San Carlo al Corso may have the only surviving Catholic shrine of St. Olaf outside Norway."
dely wrote: "Dhanaraj, this could interest you: "There is also a chapel dedicated to St. Olaf in the church of Sant'Ambrogio e Carlo al Corso in Rome. Its altarpiece was a painting of the saint, shown as the Vi..."Thanks for the info, dely. I will be visiting it surely as it is not very far from where I stay. By the way, are you coming to Rome anytime soon?
Dhanaraj wrote: "By the way, are you coming to Rome anytime soon? "I don't think :-( I still don't know if Daniele has some days vacation before Christmas and from this year he must go to school also on Saturdays. Why do you ask me? By the way, I'm waiting for you here :D
Daniele was saying that he might be going to Malaysia. But I am not sure.I asked you whether you are coming to Rome to find out the possibility of visiting the Church and the house where Sigrid passed her days in Rome together. They are very close to each other and while reading Kristin if we visit it will be interesting, I thought.
Of course, If and when I get the opportunity to visit Liguria, I will make it a point to visit you.
Dhanaraj wrote: "Daniele was saying that he might be going to Malaysia. But I am not sure.I asked you whether you are coming to Rome to find out the possibility of visiting the Church and the house where Sigrid p..."
Lol, he still doesn't know if he will go somewhere but only next year, starting from July or August. He wants to ask for a scholarship (he will stay away one year!) and Malasyia is one of the places he would choose (he wanted to choose China or Japan but he is one month too old for these two countries; he was very disappointed). We must still subscribe for the scholarship and then we must see if he will win it. He will surely add also India. He can choose 10 countries and then they decide where to send him; the better grades he has at school the most they will send him in the place he puts at the first place but they look also for other things.
You had a wonderful idea but I don't think I can manage to come to Rome in these days (Daniele's father is totally absent, as usual, so I can't tell Daniele to stay with his father for some days; Daniele would also hate me if I ask him something like this and for coming to Rome without him).
No problem, dely. And let us hope for the best for Daniele.
Dhanaraj wrote: "No problem, dely. And let us hope for the best for Daniele."Thanks ;)
dely, my translation is from Evelina Bocca and the book was printed in 1967 ( I thought this was much older! Especially considering the style.) (awwww - it cost 4500 £)
Giorgia wrote: "dely, my translation is from Evelina Bocca and the book was printed in 1967 ( I though this was much older! Especially considering the style.) (awwww - it cost 4500 £)"We have the same translator but different years of publication, perhaps they have changed something in yours seen that it is most recent.
I wanted to read other books till waiting for the other members to finish the first book, The Wreath, but I can't concentrate on other readings so I continued with Kristin.Dhanaraj, seen that you have a good introduction with the list of the Holy Days, can you look for St. Simon? I've looked for it on internet and it should be the 28th October but if it is this day, then something is wrong with the story.
Spoiler of chapter 1, part 4 (at least in my edition but it is the first part), book 2: (view spoiler).
For who has already read the first chapter, part 4 of book 2 The Wife: (view spoiler)
dely wrote: "I wanted to read other books till waiting for the other members to finish the first book, The Wreath, but I can't concentrate on other readings so I continued with Kristin.
..."
Well dely... (view spoiler)
..."
Well dely... (view spoiler)
Giorgia wrote: "dely wrote: "I wanted to read other books till waiting for the other members to finish the first book, The Wreath, but I can't concentrate on other readings so I continued with Kristin...."I knew he was an idiot but not that much! (view spoiler).
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