College Students! discussion

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message 1: by jessi (new)

jessi (infinitevantage) | 157 comments There is a group I'm in called "Debate," and I was wondering if anyone else likes to debate and would like to come over and join. Frankly, some of the people there are a little young and not that good at debating, and I am looking for more mature conversation/a challenge.


message 2: by Molly (new)

Molly (slinkyxo) | 153 comments I think we should have a debate thread :)




message 3: by Kimberly (new)

Kimberly (kimberlywithat) | 2140 comments I agree Molly! I think we could have a lot of fun with this group. We've already shown that we can discuss touchy subjects without getting out of hand.



message 4: by Jamie (The Perpetual Page-Turner), The Founding Bookworm (new)

Jamie (The Perpetual Page-Turner) (perpetualpageturner) | 4407 comments Mod
Sounds good to me! We should just convert this into the debate thread! Feel free to take it away Molly or Kimberly! :)


message 5: by Silvia (new)

Silvia (silverware) | 436 comments I LOVE DEBATES!


message 6: by Tahleen (new)

Tahleen I disagree; debating is not fun at all.

(There was too much agreeing going on.)


message 7: by Kimberly (new)

Kimberly (kimberlywithat) | 2140 comments Tahleen wrote: "I disagree; debating is not fun at all.

(There was too much agreeing going on.)"


HAHA!

There was not. It's healthy to agree once and awhile, it gives us a feeling of connection with each other.

:-D


message 8: by Tahleen (new)

Tahleen :)


message 9: by Kimberly (last edited Sep 03, 2009 08:42AM) (new)

Kimberly (kimberlywithat) | 2140 comments I am. I messaged Molly to see if she wanted to do it too, along with some ideas for topics. I haven't heard back from her yet (I just barely messaged her yesterday) but everyone seems excited to get started so I'll just go ahead and start.

What I think we'll do is maybe every 2? weeks we'll introduce a new topic. If the debate is still going strong after two weeks we'll keep it open, or if it just doesn't work we'll start a new debate even if it hasn't been two weeks. How does that sound to everyone?

Ok, for our first topic. I just Googled "Debate Topics" and this is one of the first ones that popped up, I thought it might make for an interesting debate. If you have any ideas for a topic PM me, I'd love to hear other ideas.

TOPIC

What is music? What does and doesn't qualify as music?


message 10: by Kimberly (new)

Kimberly (kimberlywithat) | 2140 comments Ok, since that topic fell flat lets go with something more contraversial.

International Adoption



message 11: by Ashley (new)

Ashley (readerandwriter) I think it's a good idea. It's a great way to learn about a whole different culture and also shows that family can be anyone as long as you love, trust, and supoort that person and they do the same for you.

Do you think people have preferences of which country to adopt a child from? Do you think people may have stereotypes about certain countries(whether they realize it or not)and could that affect which country they adopt from?


message 12: by Jamie (The Perpetual Page-Turner), The Founding Bookworm (new)

Jamie (The Perpetual Page-Turner) (perpetualpageturner) | 4407 comments Mod
I'm for it. I know some really awesome families/couples that adopted internationally and it has worked out great for them. The child seems happy. They seem happy. And they seem to have really integrated the child well into our culture and their family. I think it really depends on the family though. The family has to understand the struggles that could come with this. It's going to be a culture shock for most of those children and it will be work to really integrate them into your family as if they have always been a part of your family but also embracing the culture in which they came from. The people that I know have done a really great job doing that.


message 13: by Kimberly (new)

Kimberly (kimberlywithat) | 2140 comments So I thought this would make an interesting debate topic, so here goes.

What do you think about this?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32594686/...


message 14: by Emily (new)

Emily I'm for it. I think that people mature at all different ages. She obviously has the skills to do it, several people have mentioned she is an accomplished sailor, they are just restraining her because of her age. Fer frontal lobe may not be as developed as an adults (the decision making area), but that doesn't mean that just because she is a teenager she will be making poor decisions. They worry about how the lack of socialization will effect her emotional health...well she can stop if she wants to. It's not like they are shutting her in a box for two years, if she gets lonely she can sail to land can't she? I assume that she would be keeping in contact with people through out this trip? Obviously it's dangerous, but I think it should be her choice. If she was 18 no one would be saying anything about this, yeah four years is a lot life experience, but this girl probably has more life experiences than the majority of 18 year olds.


message 15: by Tahleen (new)

Tahleen Emily, I thought that too, about her being able to go to land if she gets lonely. I guess the only thing is she'd be surrounded by strangers and that might be dangerous, but you could make the argument that it's kind of dangerous for anyone.


message 16: by [deleted user] (new)

so what is the debate going to be about?


message 17: by Kimberly (last edited Oct 19, 2009 04:08PM) (new)

Kimberly (kimberlywithat) | 2140 comments Gene, check the link out and give us your opinion.




message 18: by [deleted user] (new)

i guess the dutch government is not wrong to delay her from her voyage, i know most of you will disagree with my statement but let me back myself up here, first of all, sailing around the world probably takes alot of stamina and motivation, and the government just does not feel that she is up for the task.. it is not the experience that the dutch government is looking at its the dangerous of the adventure and even if she has the experience, at this age is it way out of her league to overtake such a massive adventure


message 19: by Jamie (The Perpetual Page-Turner), The Founding Bookworm (last edited Oct 28, 2009 04:19PM) (new)

Jamie (The Perpetual Page-Turner) (perpetualpageturner) | 4407 comments Mod
I found this article about whether or not monogamy in a relationship is realistic. What are your thoughts?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/10/28/...

I don't know..call me old fashioned or something..but I think monogamy is the way it should be in a marriage. And that opinion doesn't have anything to do with any religious thoughts or anything. That's just me thinking that it's the whole point of what a marriage is about..and that I would die at the thought of my husband being with anyone except me.


message 20: by Ashley (new)

Ashley (readerandwriter) I believe that love can only be shared between two people. It doesn't make sense to tell someone you love them and then go out and go have sex with someone else. You either love someone or you don't, period. No ifs, ands, buts, or exceptions about it.


message 21: by Kimberly (last edited Oct 28, 2009 06:56PM) (new)

Kimberly (kimberlywithat) | 2140 comments That article really kinda annoyed me. The one guy they interviewed that practices "polyamory" sounds like a real moron. '"... and see your wife with another man. I know a lot of people would have a real problem with that. I really don't."
I firmly believe that monogamy is realistic. Look at the older generation, many of them have been married for 50+ years and have always stayed faithful. I don't believe that things have changed so much that being committed to one person your entire marriage is impossible.
Why get married if you're just going to go off with someone else? The whole point of getting married is to spend your life together, to be partners in life.


message 22: by [deleted user] (last edited Oct 29, 2009 05:07AM) (new)

I'm for whatever is right for one's own relationship. I don't think you can generalise and say 'x' applies to everyone. Everyone's relationships are different.

A great social theorist called Antonio Gramsci urged everyone to question common sense. So here we go....

1. Most people have grown up with, being surrounded by people who advocate monogamy. It's the norm for most relationships (in theory, if not always in practice). Is it possible that most peoples view that monogamy is the way to go is a result of society advocating it, of being brought up to think that monogamy is the right thing to do?

2. What would non-monogamous/polyamourous relationships look like? Could there be any benefits to it? What are/might be negative things about non-monogamy/polyamory?

3. If monogamy is the 'right way' to have a relationship, why do so many people cheat?

4. What are the positive things about being in a monogamous relationship? What are the negative things?

5. Is it possible to say that you will love one person for the rest of your life? What if the both people change? What if the person you fell in love with is a completely different person 20 years from now? What if one/both people don't like the person the other has become? Should you stay in this relationship? Can you stop yourself from not falling out of love with the person you have promised to love for the rest of your life? Do feelings obey promises?

Sorry for it being so long, but I really do believe that Gramsci was dead right: it is REALLY important to question so-called common sense, to question the morals, values,society etc that one is surrounded by, that one has been brought up with.



message 23: by Ashley (new)

Ashley (readerandwriter) I agree with that too. Sometimes you have to question what you've been taught and what has been generalized by soceity. But if you are unhappy in a relationship or don't want to be in a relationship with someone anymore, don't cheat. Sit the person down and tell them how you feel. They may or may not take it well but at least you will be man/woman enough to be honest and say whats on your mind.


message 24: by jessi (new)

jessi (infinitevantage) | 157 comments Ashley wrote: "I believe that love can only be shared between two people. It doesn't make sense to tell someone you love them and then go out and go have sex with someone else. You either love someone or you don'..."

That's assuming that sex and love are synonymous. You can have sex with other people without loving those people/without loving your partner any less.


message 25: by Jamie (The Perpetual Page-Turner), The Founding Bookworm (new)

Jamie (The Perpetual Page-Turner) (perpetualpageturner) | 4407 comments Mod
Roisu..I like what you said about questioning common sense. I think you ask good questions to think about!

I don't know..I guess it just depends on ones own preferences..? I mean, for me, I want my marriage to be only between myself and my husband. No other parties involved as far as sex and affairs go.

I do really think it takes work. I'm not so idealistic enough to think that it's really easy just because you are married. I would think it would be hard in a situation where you just find you and your spouse growing apart. I think then you could talk about what happens next. I just think that their should be open communication rather than cheating going on. That isn't going to help anyone in the long run...in my opinion. Another thing..I'm sure it's hard when kids are in the equation.


message 26: by Katerina (new)

Katerina | 252 comments Interesting topic. I'm not sure honestly. I guess it depends on what expectations the two people going into the marriage have for it.


message 27: by [deleted user] (last edited Oct 30, 2009 06:03AM) (new)

I was rooting around and I found this article about monogamy/polyamoury. It's very interesting.

http://briarpatchmagazine.com/adulter...

The article is extracted from a book called Expect Resistance A Crimethink Field Manual


message 28: by Emily (new)

Emily  O (readingwhilefemale) | 487 comments I would say that cheating is not ok simply because it's dishonest, while consensual and informed polyarmoury is fine so long as everyone involved is ok with it. It's all about what the people want out of their relationship. If they go into the marriage expecting that there will be other purely sexual relationships outside of their marriage, and both parties want that type of relationship, then I don't see why they shouldn't be able to have it.

I think that monogamy is realistic for some people, and not for others. Not everyone is the same, and not everyone should feel pressured by society to get married and be monogamous if that's not what will make them happy. I personally want a monogamous marriage, but I can understand that not all people want the same things that I do, and that's ok. The world would be boring if we were all the same.



message 29: by [deleted user] (last edited Jan 05, 2010 07:04AM) (new)

There's going to be a massive abortion debate at our uni. soon. I was just wondering what everyones thoughts are on the matter? I swear I'm not going to get involved in this one, but it'd be great to know what everyone thinks.


message 30: by Tahleen (new)

Tahleen Ha, Roisu I bet I can guess what your opinion is. :) I'm pro-choice.


message 31: by Kimberly (new)

Kimberly (kimberlywithat) | 2140 comments I'm against abortion. However, I don't like the idea of forcing someone into a decision they don't want. What if a young girl was raped and became pregnant, is it still right to force her to carry the child? A friend of mine was in that situation, though she chose have the baby and give her up for adoption.


message 32: by Ashley (new)

Ashley (readerandwriter) I've always beeen taught by my mom that what a woman does with her body, is her business. How does it affect others when a woman decides to have an abortion? This is a great question to ask and I agree with my mom. Thats what my mother always ask when it comes to the issue of abortion. If you are a family member of the woman who is getting the abortion then its understandable that there is gonna be some controversy. But if you are complete strangers, what right do you have to judge that woman? Like those rioters that you see sometimes in front of abortion clinics or other places who call women names like baby killers or whatever. What do they care what a woman does? They don't know her. The've never met.

Does this make sense?

Anyways, what a woman does with her body is her business and it doesn't affect me unless it's a family member. I think we can all agree that we are not for killing a child's life. But sometimes women have to make choices, choices that are best for them.


message 33: by Emily (new)

Emily  O (readingwhilefemale) | 487 comments Eh. I am pro-choice, up until the first trimester, just because I don't think a bunch of cells that have no nervous system of pain receptors should be considered a person. But I can understand why people would be against abortion. Still, I don't think that one person's moral opinion (usually religious) should dictate other people's morals on an issue that is clearly up in the air, so I am completely against abortion being illegal. Besides, if you look at the statistics from places like Mexico (where abortion is illegal) you'll see that making it illegal doesn't stop people from doing it. It just makes those people do it less safely.

Really, when I think about abortion, I think that if the people who are against it really want it stopped they should not focus on laws (which do basically nothing) and misinformation (which they use now and which is totally wrong) but rather they should focus on how to keep women out of those situations. That means free birth control and condoms for people who need them, health care that will cover the tremendous cost of pre-natal care and delivery, better daycare systems for single working moms, comprehensive sex education, a more streamlined and popular adoption program, and a better support system for women who are pregnant (because let's face it, a lot of people who are against abortion treat unwed mothers like dirt, especially once they have the baby). Once all that happens, abortions would be so low that making a law wouldn't even be a really necessity.

Anyway, that's my two cents. I'm mildly worried about this topic because people usually get pretty touchy about it. Lets all be nice.



message 34: by Jamie (The Perpetual Page-Turner), The Founding Bookworm (new)

Jamie (The Perpetual Page-Turner) (perpetualpageturner) | 4407 comments Mod
I agree with Emily about being mildly worried about this discussion. We normally don't have a problem because we are all pretty respectful of each others opinions..so I don't think there will be a problem. However, I just want to caution everybody to think about what they wrote before you post it and read it a few times just to make sure you aren't being nasty or disrespectful. I know I have to do that sometimes when I respond when I'm angry about something that was said. (Not that I think we will have a problem.) We can disagree but it doesn't have to get nasty. I just figured I'd reiterate as this is a very touchy issue.

Anyways..great discussion so far!

I think that how I feel about abortion differ socially and personally. What I mean by this is that for ME..I would never have an abortion. I don't believe in it for ME. As far as society goes, I would never push my beliefs on anyone else and never tell someone else what they should do.

I am against it after the first trimester as well. And Emily..I am SO with you about the legal vs. illegal debate. Making it illegal will be worse..because people WILL still do it & will be extremely unsafe.

I thought what you said was really important, Emily. I think it would be wise to also focus on how to keep women out of those situations. All of those things you listed would be so beneficial to women and perhaps abortion wouldn't even be an option to alot of those women if they knew they would have support or be covered health care wise.

I also have to say what makes me really mad when it comes to abortion is when it is used by people (mostly young teenagers) who have them over and over again. Just because the option to have an abortion is there, it shouldn't mean that you cease to practice safe sex. It isn't a license to be reckless and to act like there aren't consequences. I remember knowing trashy girls in my high school who had multiple abortions just because they were too irresponsible and they felt like it was no big deal. There are people who can't have kids who would die just to be able to become pregnant. It kind of seems like a slap in the face when someone just carelessly has sex without taking any responsibility. I think that's where the free birth control and condoms and comprehensive sex education would really help out.


message 35: by Tahleen (new)

Tahleen Jamie, that's a really good point. It should never have to get to the point where abortion is a form of birth control. I think I remember reading somewhere that women in some countries have to rely on that though, since they can't afford to have any more children and they're not allowed to use contraception... I can't remember which country though.


message 36: by Jessie (new)

Jessie (Jessie08) | 128 comments I'm like a number of people here; while I could never be able to get an abortion personally, it is none of my business if other people choose to do so. I would hope that anyone with that situation would fully take a look at all their options, (like adoption) but I definitely think that abortion should be legal and an option to women.
And Jamie I totally agree with you that free birth control, condoms and better sex education is really the best way to prevent anyone from having to choose abortion anyways. I really have a problem with politicians whom are against abortion, but also want schools to teach abstinence only sex ed classes.


message 37: by Drew (new)

Drew Hamilton (drewhamilton) I don't support abortion as an act of birth control (as seems to be a general consensus) but it is your personal right to choose. It's even a God given right (free will). Medical reasons get a pass. It seems pretty clear cut to me. No one should be able to dictate your rights, especially the government. It's like gay marriage. I feel the government has no right to dictate the definition of marriage and has no right to regulate it either way. I believe in governmental minimalism.

My views on whether either of these is right or wrong is just that, MY view and I have no right to dictate your views.

We need better sex education, not abstinence education. I think abstinence should be encouraged for psychological reasons, but should ONLY be encouraged. Not the definitive stance.


message 38: by Tahleen (new)

Tahleen Drew, I completely agree, abstinence-only education is not what should be taught in our schools. I went to high school in Massachusetts and we had a really great sex ed program and learned all about contraception. When I went to college and found out that some of my peers had abstinence-only ed in their schools, I was shocked.


message 39: by Emily (new)

Emily Bravo everyone for being nice to each other! Emily, I think you put my beliefs very well into writing!

Also one of my frustrations is how often people see the pro-choice/pro-life debate as two opposing sides. when really we all are just trying to do what is best for humankind and just have different opinions of what that is. I think it is essential that everyone understand that pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion.

Also i know it has a radically liberal title and even I was a little skeptical of it at first, but i swear it's an amazing book and i can't wait for someone on here to read it so i can discuss it with them! How the Pro-choice Movement Saved America Freedom, Politics, And the War on Sex

p.s: abstinence-only education has been scientifically proven to be wildly unsuccessful. Someone should tell Sarah Palin that....maybe her daughter will ;)


message 40: by Tahleen (new)

Tahleen Speaking of Sarah Palin, if anyone reads her new book let me know how it is. I'm eager to hear.


message 41: by [deleted user] (last edited Jan 05, 2010 07:02AM) (new)

Hey guys, I know this is a bit weird, but we're all adults here so......

What is ye're opinion on porn? I ask because it comes up in my sociology class (especially my Women's Human Rights class) alot. My friends and I debate about it sometimes and we all have pretty mixed opinions about it. Right now I'm on the fence, I don't know what to think.

So Is it just pure innocent fantasy? Degrading towards women? Inherently evil? Enjoyable for men and women? If ye've watched porn, how did ye feel? It'd be great to get guys opinions on this too.


message 42: by Tahleen (new)

Tahleen I think it's degrading, for the most part. To get my opinion just read my review of Getting Off Pornography and the End of Masculinity. Roisu, I think you've read it. But reading that book illuminated a lot of things for me; I don't watch porn and didn't know what mainstream porn was like until I read that book, and I know it isn't fair to base my opinion on something based on one book, but I read enough to wish that porn didn't exist.


message 43: by Jamie (The Perpetual Page-Turner), The Founding Bookworm (last edited Feb 24, 2010 12:36PM) (new)

Jamie (The Perpetual Page-Turner) (perpetualpageturner) | 4407 comments Mod
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/FaceO...


Did anyone see this debate last night on Nightline? It was a very interesting debate called "Is it Ok to be Fat?" I found it extremely interesting. It's a shame that they don't have the whole video just on one thing but on that page after you watch the initial one there are the actual clips of the panel debating it.

I think my concern is healthiness. You aren't healthy when you are extremely overweight and you aren't healthy when you are extremely underweight..and that differs based on your height and also in some cases, your genes. I've always been thin (all of my sisters and I are tall and skinny..we can't help it) but I don't think that is an indicator of being healthy. I think my eating habits are just as unhealthy as being overweight. I think unhealthiness just manifests differently when you are underweight and overweight.

I don't know..I just found their debate so interesting. I thought the really fit woman was extreme but I agreed with alot. But I also agreed with some of the points of the model about the other extreme of being anorexic. I think that there really needs to be more promoting healthiness rather than being thin.

And I want to clarify...by overweight and underweight..I'm not referring to people who a little over the "average" weight for their BMI..I'm talking about being alot under or over that.


message 44: by Tahleen (new)

Tahleen I just read a review that relates to that, called The Fat Studies Reader. I want to read it; I think we as Americans have a very skewed idea of what is healthy and what is not. I want to read this book, and maybe I'll find the time to watch that clip Jamie--but I do think we need to look at this from more perspectives. There can be healthy people who are overweight. It depends on genetics and what your normal body type is.


message 45: by Jamie (The Perpetual Page-Turner), The Founding Bookworm (new)

Jamie (The Perpetual Page-Turner) (perpetualpageturner) | 4407 comments Mod
Tahleen wrote: "I just read a review that relates to that, called The Fat Studies Reader. I want to read it; I think we as Americans have a very skewed idea of what is healthy and what is not. I wan..."

Precisely. In some cases I think genes play a huge role in it and body build. One weight is not going to "fit" everyone.


message 46: by Daisy (new)

Daisy | 686 comments I agree there isn't one perfect weight for everybody, but that's why there's a range that's normal for your height. And if you go a little over or under it's not that big a problem. But maybe I have a different definition of what's healthy or not (I'm studying medicine and this is a hot issue), because in my book being overweight is never healthy. They may not experience problems now, but it's not healthy as in that it's a risk factor for a lot of diseases, for example diabetes, heart problems, joint problems (I really could go on and on)..
I do realise that it's very hard to loose weight (and the other way around to gain weight if you're underweight) and that not everybody can do it. That's why I think it's very important for parents to teach their children healthy eating patterns and stimulate them to exercise, it's a lot easier to continue something you've always been doing than making changes because you already are overweight.
I feel very strongly about this (and could talk for hours about it) and I'm trying very hard not to offend anyone, but if I did let me know.


message 47: by Tahleen (new)

Tahleen Daisy, you definitely didn't offend me, I don't know about anyone else! I know it's a hot-button issue, but I also think that when most people are talking about health issues related to being overweight, the people tend to not be overweight. Am I wrong? That's just what I've noticed in my own experience. Are we talking obese, or just overweight?


message 48: by Tahleen (new)

Tahleen I think I've mentioned it here before, but about a year ago I was going through a really tough time with my body image and my weight. I had an eating disorder, and though it wasn't quite at the level of anorexia, I was eating in a dangerous way--trying to eat 800 Calories or less a day. It was this book that really helped me realize I was in danger: Appetites: Why Women Want. I highly recommend this book to every woman, and to every man as well, actually. Please, please read it.


message 49: by Jamie (The Perpetual Page-Turner), The Founding Bookworm (new)

Jamie (The Perpetual Page-Turner) (perpetualpageturner) | 4407 comments Mod
Daisy wrote: "I agree there isn't one perfect weight for everybody, but that's why there's a range that's normal for your height. And if you go a little over or under it's not that big a problem. But maybe I hav..."

I agree with everything you said! Good points. I think you would find that panel discussion interesting. I'd like to actually know what you think about all the things the women said to know what was fact and what was not. In the discussion they did stop it and do some "fact checks" for things that the people said. But, I do agree, they might not experience problems now, but they will. I have relatives who are pretty overweight and they have all sorts of problems.

Haha Tahleen..that is true..it does tend to be people who aren't overweight. The most interesting person that was on that Nightline thing was a woman who used to be really obese and lost alot of weight. Her perspective was very interesting.

Anna--That documentary looks interesting! My own experience with food/dieting/body image has always been interesting. I have anorexic tendencies if that makes sense...very bad body image (always struggled with that even though I've always been thing) and there have been times, like when my mother died, that I didn't really eat much. But normally I eat a lot and don't care..that's why I say I have tendencies. I struggled with it alot in college.

I was thinking about something that was said about discrimination on the Nightline thing. The obese woman was talking about it and then the really fit woman was saying something about discrimination against thin people (I forget what exactly)..but anyways..I was thinking how hard it is to be a kid. If you are a chunky/fat kid you get made fun of and if you are too skinny you get made fun of. When I was younger, I always got made fun of for being so tall and skinny. My younger sister (14) is even skinnier and taller than I was and she has been called anorexic since she was like 10 or 11..which is in no way. We just can't help it. No wonder kids end up having such shitty self esteem and body image..you are either too fat or too skinny and you pretty much can't win.


message 50: by Ashley (last edited Feb 25, 2010 09:41AM) (new)

Ashley (ash88) I can go on and on about this topic. SO MUCH has to do with your genes! I think that for the most part, if you generally eat healthy and treat your body in a healthy way I don't think we should even look at weight!

I have two younger sisters, one of them is like me and we've always been skinny (but we eat junk), and the other one eats healthier, plays sports, exercises, and her BMI is slightly in the overweight category.

I think she's perfect, but unfortunately she gets ideas in her head that she's 'fat' (which is SO far from the truth) because she compares herself to her sisters and to people on TV. I hate that! She's perfectly healthy!


It goes the other way too- I've always had body image issues because when I was younger kids used to call me Stick, Anorexic girl, on and on. But my weight had more to do with my metabolism than anything else. I used to eat so much, and then continue eating after i was full because I was embarrassed of my body. I think its one of the reasons I used to be so shy.


I just really think we should get these ideas of 'healthy weights' out of our heads and look at what is healthy for an individual person. People are different, so their 'healthy weights' are going to be different.

(Also, no Daisy you didn't offend me, and I hope I didn't offend anyone! I'm not in the medical field so I can't say much technically.)


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