Outlander Series discussion
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Episode 8 - Both Sides Now - Spoilers up thru E8.
message 51:
by
Diane
(new)
Sep 28, 2014 02:44PM
Ladies please spoiler tag your posts for anything that happens in the Outlander series beyond what has happened through this episode. I know we all have theories and points to be made with supporting details from what we read in later books but not everybody has read beyond Outlander and some people may be only watching the series and have not even finished Outlander yet.
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Avril wrote: "I only read outlander as the series started I have known about the series for a while but did not read it. Once I got into it I could not put it down but it took a while. I did not get a real sens..."Avril, Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'm currently on book five, so it's hard for me not to imagine Jamie and Claire being together. That's interesting that you didn't get a sense of their intense connection until the wedding and thereafter. I do miss that being shown in the series, but I suppose the constraints of screen and time …
Vanessa Eden wrote: "And my point is those people who thought differently than you... As you said yourself, you are in the minority... how can millions of people misinterpret a character... Like its their fault; my poi..."This was Diana's first book and she never intended to publish it. I can certainly understand how she could write something that was misinterpreted. What she had in her head was left ambiguous and she didn't realize at the time that other people (whom the book was not written for) would feel differently until the fans began expressing their interpretation. Who are we though to tell her the nature of her characters? How can we say SHE is wrong when she is the one who invented them. They live alive inside of HER imagination we can only see what she shows us. If she didn't show character trait as she wrote and now realizes that fans do misinterpret a situation or character don't you think she might pass that along to the producer and writers of the TV show so we get a fuller more clear picture of what she intended?
I have never been a Frank fan - at first I was neutral and then I disliked him as the series went on. When the author says that my interpretation of a character was not what was intended then I am willing to open my eyes and try to see her point of view especially when it is now being presented through a new medium with variation in some content.
@Mia wrote: Frank heard Claire more with his heart than with his ears.love that line. Quite possibly, on the wind, as it were. And if Frank heard her, then what? He leaves. He's devastated, with no where to go, no way to see what could be possible, even though he's a man who literally lives in the past because of his teaching. ah, Frank, we love you, too.
AvrilI can see why you didn`t get a sense of connection,it seems to me the last few ep. have been about everyone but Jamie and since there is little time in movies to get them together is why I think we have had a whole lot of Dougal and a horrible amount of Frank and Black Jack on the screen & they have spent only a few seconds together except for the wedding in the last few ep.I don`t compare movie with book,I disregard the books completely and to me it`s just like it should be,it can never be word for word from a book and it would probably be dry and boring if it were.
Diane... Just as you said, if we misinterpreted a character and she adds facts about them later then that proves my point... If we are supposed to feel something then tell us because we don't live in her head and understand the characters the way she does. The job of the writer is to put your imagination on paper.
Alexa wrote: "I love the series. I am ok with the changes but okay, Jamie didn't threaten to spank her if she left. That is a huge deal. Did I miss something?"Yes that is a huge point and you didn't miss it. Half of the episode was devoted again to Frank/BJ so they took out things again that would impact things down the road. So I guess they are changing all that as well. So we can spend more time with Black Jack rape of Claire and Jamie. They also took out the part where Claire was not upset with Jamie and didn't initially blame it on him. The sex they had after was that they were both in shock and felt they needed to reconnect after that rape attempt (view spoiler)
gertt wrote: "Paul wrote: "Brizo wrote: "I liked the book version better. I wish they would get on more with Claire and Jamie and less with Frank and Black Jack. "I have a "first-love" theory about what people..."
I don't know it depends on the book and the adaptation. I remember reading Ken Follets book Eye of the Needle, and then saw the film and the film was right on and better than the book. So I do think it's more to do with expectations not being met, than first love..
gertt wrote: "Alexa wrote: "I love the series. I am ok with the changes but okay, Jamie didn't threaten to spank her if she left. That is a huge deal. Did I miss something?"You're right Alexa, I was wrong...Ja..."
Yes and the important part was when he told her he didn't make idle threats or vows. It was part of his code of honor.
Well, if readers did misinterpret Frank's character, doesn't that also make Claire much worse than reader's thought, as well? From my pov, my understanding and justification of her ability to turn her back on her husband for Jaime so quickly was due to me thinking that she wasn't genuinely happy in her marriage anyway. If Frank is better than I thought, it also makes Claire far far worse than I thought at the same time.
One very MAJOR thing I think I either missed, in the show, or they left it out. Now maybe I am mistaken here but, in the book, didn't Jamie and Claire have a talk where he told her that he knows there may be things she doesn't want to tell him about and he won't hold her to do so but that it was important they NEVER LIE to one another? (from this moment forward)
I thought that was on their wedding night and I don't remember hearing it on the show. It is a vital part of their relationship and equally important to future happenings, in the books anyway.
Mia wrote: "One very MAJOR thing I think I either missed, in the show, or they left it out. Now maybe I am mistaken here but, in the book, didn't Jamie and Claire have a talk where he told her that he knows ..."
You are correct—he says that on their wedding night before they consummate their marriage.
I think it was a mistake for them to leave that out. It directly relates to so many events from that time forward.
M. wrote: "You are correct—he says that on their wedding night before they consummate their marriage. "So I didn't miss it? They really did omit it?
If so, I hope they put it in somewhere and soon.
Diane wrote: "I think it was a mistake for them to leave that out. It directly relates to so many events from that time forward."It does! I am only in DoA and it does play a part in what I've read so far.
M. wrote: "gertt wrote: "Diane wrote: "I love how she almost went through the stones and was pulled back by the Redcoats at the last moment..."Don't you think this was the same interpretation as the drownin..."
Yes, I think they altered the drowning scene and replaced it with the stone scene to add drama with Frank. As rewrites go, for the screen, I think it was good. I thought it was her wrap she saw in the grass. When she initially went through and came to at the base of the stone, she stood up and left the shawl on the ground. It's those dumb bits I tend to notice.
gertt wrote: "Did he threaten to spank her if she left in the book? I don't remember that."I was really upset that Jamie spanked Claire. What was it for? That said, I'd hate if that is cut from the show because it accentuated that time frame. I hope I'm not spoiling it for anyone.
gertt wrote: "Alexa wrote: "I love the series. I am ok with the changes but okay, Jamie didn't threaten to spank her if she left. That is a huge deal. Did I miss something?"You're right Alexa, I was wrong...Ja..."
Thank you for the clarification.
Mia wrote: "One very MAJOR thing I think I either missed, in the show, or they left it out. Now maybe I am mistaken here but, in the book, didn't Jamie and Claire have a talk where he told her that he knows ..."
I have a problem with leaving those lines out too because Jamie and his vows are everything.
Mochaspresso wrote: "Well, if readers did misinterpret Frank's character, doesn't that also make Claire much worse than reader's thought, as well? From my pov, my understanding and justification of her ability to turn..."That's an interesting point. Have the fans who have (according to DG) misinterpreted Franks character done so sub-conciously because by doing that (making him out to be this awful person), it becomes "OK" that Claire left her husband for another man (even if that man is Jamie Fraser)???
Just a thought, not saying thats what anyone here has done :)
Interesting reply on facebook from Diana in answer to some posts saying "Its Claire & Jamies story NOT Franks..Copy & pasted from Facebook
Diana Gabaldon Michele et al-- It _is_ Frank's story. If he didn't exist, the whole story would be completely different. We don't see everything he went through in the book--we can't, because it's entirely from Claire's point of view--but what's shown onscreen _happened_; it _is_ what he was going through--and thus colors who he is and how he behaves when Claire returns to him in the later parts of the story.
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The Frank of the TV show is definitely more likable than the Frank of the books. I understand what DG is saying in regards to not being able to see Frank's side in the book because its from Claire's POV. But I still think there is more Frank than we need in the show...its taking up way too much valuable time. There is so much to cram into one season as it is without all this extra stuff :/
I agree Jessa. There is so much to put into one season I think it will be a lot of work for the script writers to put the book into one series without adding anything extra. Sense they have, we have missed some great parts in the book. I must say though, I have really enjoyed the added parts with frank. The part at the stones was beautiful.
I loved the mediums used to bring Outlander up close and personal. Books, TV and even Goodreads. I get different views, 'likes' and 'dislikes'. Different interpretations and I'm sure Miss Gabaldon has and will continue to use media as a second chance to visually put her puzzle together, as if she can perfect it further, you know, things she might have missed... Now that she has finished 8 books, she has big puzzle to play with.
I'm just going to enjoy all if it.
Yea it made my heart break for Frank.
I loved the scene at the stones with both Frank and Claire. It actually added something to the story in a good way. I'd wondered about Frank's feelings during that time, and always felt like not enough was shown in the books. I like seeing more of the bigger picture.
M. wrote: "gertt wrote: "Diane wrote: "I love how she almost went through the stones and was pulled back by the Redcoats at the last moment..."Don't you think this was the same interpretation as the drownin..."
Claire sees her shawl that she was wearing when she passed through the stones and lost, like a marker that she is in the right place.
Jessa, I'm with you on this! I remembered it took me forever to forgive Jamie... Can't you believe?
Zoey wrote: "Interesting reply on facebook from Diana in answer to some posts saying "Its Claire & Jamies story NOT Franks..Copy & pasted from Facebook
Diana Gabaldon Michele et al-- It _is_ Frank's story. If..."
Thanks for sharing that. I love the point of it being written from Claire's point of view and being important to the set up for future seasons.
I have no doubt there's love and passion between Frank and Claire, deeply in fact. The beating during the rubbery reminded me the Randall's bloodline, fierce and brutal. Whereas Jamie killed but it's out of necessity and bravery not demonic... Again, visually not something I had pictured from the book.
I agree, Gertt. Sam's version of Jamie is much more soft spoken and even seems shy at times. Book Jamie is stubborn and not afraid to get his point across. He and Claire butt heads multiple times and I love that about their relationship. They are both strong willed. We haven't really seen that in the TV show version...I hope we will, though. Its also one reason I really hope they don't take the (view spoiler) out. It was a pivotal turning point in their relationship, imo.
I think that what we all must keep in mind about Frank is that in the first book we only got a very very small look at him. By the time Claire went back in time we hardly knew Claire and we were in here head. So Frank we knew even less. (view spoiler) Everyone is telling him that she left him and to start a new life. I think he can't help but to eventually believe that. (view spoiler) I don't think we can judge Frank and the state of their marriage in the small glimpse that we get in the first book. Nor can we judge Frank from that small glimpse. As Claire says at the beginning they had not been married long before war intervened and they were both changed by it. That was why they were going on the second honeymoon. To learn who each other was again after the affects of war not because their relationship was rocky. Anyway that is my opinion. I always felt sorry for Frank in the first book.
gertt wrote: "Does anyone think that Jamie is being portrayed as being a little to refined? When I read this section in the book, Jamie seemed stronger, more in control when he talked to Claire. He didn't j..."
Totally agree with your POV. And again, not that I'm complaining of Sam, he's adorable and growing on me but my book Jamie was the epitome of an alpha male, sighs....
Re the "Spanking & warning of"I vaguely remember Jamie warning Claire to stay put or else but can't remember if he cited spanking or similar retribution.
gertt: it is funny, but I thought Jamie became a bit less refined, as the books go on,than he was in Outlander. And I think he would be quite "capable" as it was an absolutely necessary for her to understand she must submit at times and a show for the contingent of men that he has her well in hand. If he doesn't, what might Dougal do to keep her in line hmmm? Jamie will do as he must. will it be in episode 9 or 10? Your
guess is as good mine.
Kathy Anne wrote: "you know what I keep wondering and even tho I have read these books the last 15 or so yrs just like all of you on here I keep thinking Frank and Clair couldn`t have spent more than a few mo. togeth..."I always thought Frank loved her but that he was rather typical in wanting to get as much of his favorite thing in before he had to go to Oxford. He knew it was not Claire's idea of fun though he wished she were more enthused. So he kind of dismissively let her be on her way learning of the botany and such. Unfortunately not every couple are as enthused about the same hobbies. I canNOT get into Wrestling (like WWF....maybe mud?) and there are those that can't get into books or sci-fi. Anyway that's how I saw him in the book, that he was dismissive but loved her truly. He had wondered if she were faithful to him after having seen the 'ghost' too, and seemed relieved that she was.
Kathy Anne wrote: "I forgot there is another interview with him from earlier of his thoughts on trying to please fans and how he goes about it.I was at work so I missed the ask outlander s&C you posted Ellen,do you..."
There's this one?
http://www.spoilersguide.com/outlande...
One thing that made me sad was when Frank left Claire's suitcase on the bed. I wanted to know if he took the wedding picture. It's just a small thing but it stuck with me.
http://outlandertvnews.com/2014/09/tw...in response to "this link is broken", I"ve just found another one, not as complete, with Catriona on board as well.
@Patty "claire's suitcase on the bed..." broke my heart as well. I wondered if she'll ever get it back. I'm not as forward read as some of you, so in Outlander, it doesn't happen. But maybe later.......
Crazy4more wrote: "gertt wrote: "Alexa wrote: "I love the series. I am ok with the changes but okay, Jamie didn't threaten to spank her if she left. That is a huge deal. Did I miss something?"You're right Alexa, I ..."
I posted the question on her Facebook page. I had to ask. I was so excited when Diana Gabaldon replied. I guess we will see it next season :)
gertt wrote: "Ellen wrote: "@Patty "claire's suitcase on the bed..." broke my heart as well. I wondered if she'll ever get it back. I'm not as forward read as some of you, so in Outlander, it doesn't happen. ..."I know exactly where all my exes are
My uncle told my Aunt he was going out to buy some ciarettes one day and that was the last anyone ever heard about or ever saw him again.And it was a horrible shock for the whole family that really liked the guy,he was always happy and upbeat and treated everyone wonderfully and even tho I didn`tknow him well and I was only about 12y.o.I remember feeling really hurt.No the police or his good buddies never saw him again either.So I do have just a smidge of the feelings my aunt had and I would guess anyone else hit with a trauma like that including Frank.BTW the guy had just gotten out of the service too.
I am still hoping someone is reading outlander now and reads how long F&C actually lived together minus the war yrs..I have this brain spaz that it was only a few months but surly it must have bee longer than that ?
Ellen wrote: "gertt wrote: "Ellen wrote: "@Patty "claire's suitcase on the bed..." broke my heart as well. I wondered if she'll ever get it back. I'm not as forward read as some of you, so in Outlander, it doe..."those are the stories we see on TV! how horrible for her. yes, it must have been the same feeling that Frank had....
Kathy Anne wrote: "My uncle told my Aunt he was going out to buy some ciarettes one day and that was the last anyone ever heard about or ever saw him again.And it was a horrible shock for the whole family that really..."I replied to the wrong comment @Kathy Anne that comment was for you, and your Aunt
Alexa wrote: "Crazy4more wrote: "gertt wrote: "Alexa wrote: "I love the series. I am ok with the changes but okay, Jamie didn't threaten to spank her if she left. That is a huge deal. Did I miss something?"You..."
Yay, you rock. Thanks.
Kathy Anne wrote: "I am also tired of Frank/Black Jack and except for the wedding we haven`t seen a lot of Jamie in the last few episodes.It was right after they had the discussion about us not liking Frank when DG s..."I wholeheartedly agree - I don't care very much for Frank at all. In the book he came across very much controlled of his emotions. Even though he wasn't expressive I'm sure he loved Claire. I don't see Claire marrying some man if they didn't care for each other. I am thoroughly ejoying the chemistry between Claire & Jaimie. And to think at first I was so disappointed in the actor "Sam Heughan" until right before my eyes. He brought Jaimie to life!! Awesome show but please more about Jaimie & Claire!!!
