Outlander Series discussion
Archive - Outlander on Starz S1
>
Episode 8 - Both Sides Now - Spoilers up thru E8.
message 1:
by
Dee
(new)
Sep 25, 2014 08:05AM
includes spoilers up to E8
reply
|
flag
i'm out of town this weekend and i wanted to make sure the thread was up for you guys
does everyone know that Sam and Cait will be answering questions TODAY on Twitter at 1:pm EST?use the hashtag #AskOutlander to find the conversation
I just read an interview with Ron Moore on Vulture.com and he said,words to the effect that he was leaving us with a real cliffhanger-Clair is in the hands of Black Jack.And since that is all he said about it I guess we can just guess what shape she will be in when Jamie gets her back.
I forgot there is another interview with him from earlier of his thoughts on trying to please fans and how he goes about it.I was at work so I missed the ask outlander s&C you posted Ellen,do you know if it can be found anywhere else now ?
supposedly, the entire convo is up somewhere. I'll see if I can track it down.
Seriously. That's it until April? Well doesn't that just make me feel all warm and fuzzy - not! Kinda makes me a bit P'd off!As you can tell, I am enjoying the show and was glad Murtaugh had more of a presence in this eppisode.
Well got lots more reading to do as I have not finished DoA yet.
How did you all feel about the additiond/changes in this ep? The bit with Frank at the stones was a wonderfully poetic touch, I thought. So emotional for Frank, but it was still a bit strange to me. yes, Claire had been yearning to find Craig na Dun all through the book, but to see her tear off across field and forest, leaving Jamie behind was heart-wrenching to me. It was delivered in a more powerful way onscreen, for me, than in the book. In the book I always have a sense of her being immediately, irrevocably and eternally enjoined to Jamie, whatever may come. Not having read the rest of the series as yet, I'm only aware of future twists through "spoilers" and things I've picked up from the Fandom. So my wonder and delight at each scene is still intact, you see.
Ellen wrote: "How did you all feel about the additiond/changes in this ep? The bit with Frank at the stones was a wonderfully poetic touch, I thought. So emotional for Frank, but it was still a bit strange to me..."I liked the book version better. I wish they would get on more with Claire and Jamie and less with Frank and Black Jack.
Ron said in his "Behind the scenes" on Outlander Starz that he likes to keep the audience guessing, even if they think they know what's coming. I guess that means us. (bookreaders)
I know they have to put more if Frank in the show. It bothered me that he gave Jamie's description as a possible suspect, but I also suppose that would have been what he would have done. This episode did connect me with the Frank of the book though, finally feeling he loved Claire. The whole robbery set up seemed a bit forced and contrived but again, I could see it happenening at any time. The gut-wrenching realization, of the totality of His loss, hitting Frank was brilliantly conveyed and well played.
I too loved the stone scene. I have to say it was obvious Claire heard Frank audably but I feel more like Frank heard Claire more with his heart than with his ears. I also think that was genius, lending to the whole mystery of the stones and that only some are sensative to them. A very good addition, makes me wonder if there will one day be a discovery of some journal he kept during those three years of his (in the books).
Well I do think these are the types of things DG consults on as far as "is this something Frank would have done?" The directors and actors are doing a fine job in keeping the characters so much like the books; it makes me wonder if DG was able to negotiate more input than most authors, or if the creators love the books as much as the rest of the readers.
Allen Ball twisted Charlaine Harris' characters (True Blood series) until they were unrecognizable spoofs of her creation. The author did say she had been told that would happen...more like 'warned', if ya ask me. I used to say the show was loosely based on names of characters Ms. Harris created, not the books!
The final was interesting and at least the additions were in line with the storyline. But honestly, I think they cut too much of the book out to accommodate the Frank/Jack scenes just so they could end the half-season final with the attempted rape of Claire by Black Jack. Another problem with having only 8 episodes rather than the 16 one would expect in a full season. And that 6 month wait for more is just horrible!I don't know about what others feel with this regard but I would like more of Claire and Jamie's relationship and less of Frank and Claire I really don't care what Frank was doing when Claire was gone. As for Black Jack's attempted rape that should have come down the road not in this episode, but obviously it was put here so we could have that cliché cliff hanger ending at the expense of loosing other scenes.
We miss the whole part of Claire getting accustomed to Jamie. The three days Jamie negotiated with Dougal so that they could be alone; the part with them in the mountains when the Watch comes to the Inn; the part about learning to live on the road outdoors because he is an outlaw. The sex after the attempted rape by the deserters that Jamie and Claire had to overcome that incident and feel one again. Dougal finding them naked after they had sex, when they were both in shock, Jamie leaving her alone in the glen and the conversation Jamie had with Claire when he tells her what he will do to her if she leaves the glen before he returns.
So all of a sudden she's right next to "Crag na Dun" instead of needing to get back to it (so she can call out Frank's name, and he could hear her and then redcoats appear out of nowhere). Rather than her being washed downstream and the Redcoats rescuing her, missing all the tension of not knowing if she will be found or not. By including someone to watch her, that all became a mute point.
During the fight we missed Dugal getting wounded, and Claire stitching him up. The fight scene was really compressed and again we lost the after fight interplay between Jamie and Claire.
I'm getting the feeling Ron is minimizing Jamie and promoting Frank/Black Jack and I'm not sure why he would do that. I for one do not like it. Jamie to me is way more interesting, than BJR perversions.. Claire and Jamie together are just magic, he should be promoting that aspect of Diana Gabaldon's books, it's the classic love story and it's being minimized.
I am also tired of Frank/Black Jack and except for the wedding we haven`t seen a lot of Jamie in the last few episodes.It was right after they had the discussion about us not liking Frank when DG said she didn`t know why we felt like we do about him that I think they started pushing Frank on us.I don`t know about anyone else but my feelings never change as far as he`s concerned.I haven`t even bothered to see a rerun and on all the other ep. except the flogging one I have seen everyone I can.It even made me not so upset they are leaving.
My one thought while watching this episode was "not yet!" Alas, I will have to wait until April.My favorite "gem" was Frank walking in on the Reverend Wakefield and Mrs. Graham arguing: "It's an old house." It was nice to see young Roger too.
Jamie's anguish at witnessing Claire's attack was so visceral, then of course seeing her in a same situation at BJR's hands, he had to be calm but you know he was raging internally. That look on his face in the window...wow.
Claire going through the stones as it showed I think shows her reacting without thinking about consequences...which you can't blame her because this is what she has been trying to do for six weeks...opportunity presents itself you have to act. But we see what happens when you do this in this episode and upcoming.
I liked it but the series so far has fallen flat compared to the books. There simply hasn't been enough of Jamie in the episodes and too much of BJR. Claire has spent more time talking to BJR than she ever has to Jamie.
I liked this episode more than I thought I would (for some reason the trailer made me think Frank was put on trial). I was surprised by how much I liked the Frank scenes—that he was able to fend off two attackers and then almost killed their accomplice out of rage connects him much more to Black Jack. At the same time, despite his dismissal of Mrs. Graham's story, he can't help but go up to the stones and look for Claire. So he's turning out to be a more complex character than he was in the book. (view spoiler)I appreciate their showing Claire's reaction to the attempted rape and her killing of the English deserter. When I read the book, it went by quickly, but in the show, you see her fury at Jamie and herself, leading to her race back to the rocks.
It was impressive how much they were able to condense into one episode. (I think Ron Moore wrote the episode? I should trust that those episodes will be good.) I really dislike the use of cliffhangers, however, especially when we'll have to wait six months to see what happens.
Agree with Brizo and the others … so far the show's been less about the romance, which I miss, as I think the actors playing Jamie and Claire are excellent. I guess if I want those romantic scenes I'll have to go back to the books.
VanessaI love your very good observation that Clair has spent more time talking to BJR than our Jamie and when they come back it seriously looks like(oh joy)more Black Jack.
I actually liked the scenes with Frank and his determination to find her. His anguish at having lost her and his disbelief of Mrs. Grahams version of what might have happened. I have never been a Frank fan and this helps me see his side of things better. I feel like I know his character better. That is a good thing especially since DG had said that most people misinterpret Frank's character. These extra bits add so much to the story for me since I have read them all. It is like getting those side vignettes with unexpected information and insights. I loved seeing wee Roger Wakefield. Isn't he just the most adorable "biscuit eater" you have ever seen? Made me smile for sure. I wouldn't mind a little extras around why he is with the reverend setting us up for future seasons.
I do wish they would have put a bit in after Claire was attacked, about how killing somebody and being in near death situations, makes one feel the need to connect with each other through sex. I also think that the near drowning scene in the book was such a metaphor about how Claire felt when she was determined to get to Frank and "this place" kept pulling her and holding her against her will. It was not until she gave up to the drowning that she was rescued by BJR. The way they showed it with her being so close to the stones and loosing herself to run back made it seem more spontaneous and less determined and intentional. She WAS still determined to get back to Frank at this point even though she was falling in love with Jamie. I loved how she almost went through the stones and was pulled back by the redcoats at the last moment.
For all those who keep saying that they want to see more Jamie and Claire already at this point in the story the "Jamie and Claire" were still just beginning. This story is so much more than romance so I like that they are fleshing it out to ensure it is not just a romance . It has so much more depth than the "Lifetime made for TV movie" they could have done. People were wanting Jamie and Claire to be kissing by the second episode because that is what they were looking forward to seeing. The story was not meant to be that way. I love the romance and sex between Jamie and Claire but I do not want to see this whittled down to that.
What I wish is that they did not make this the mid season break (well I wish there WAS NO mid season break but if there has to be...)I wish they gave it 10 episodes and broke with the cliffhanger of (view spoiler) Over all I think this was a good episode but I wish it was not the mid season cliff hanger that we were expecting.
I have to say this...DG says that we the readers misinterpret Frank. I for one have always felt sorry for him. However, I don't agree that the readers have misinterpreted frank no matter how they feel about him. We have all read the books and drawn conclusions thusly. If everyone has misunderstood a character than perhaps it should have been written differently. The books are written with sympathy for Claire and Jamie. What few insights we have of Frank are not positive until Bree shows up and we hear about him from her pov and by that time we have already made out minds up on how we feel about Frank.Just my opinion and please don't get mad at me for disagreeing with DG.
Since we must have a break, thought it was a pretty effective place to end the mid-season. After reading all the books ALOT, I must say I've never had a positive opinion of Frank except I felt he truly loved Brianna. Thought little Roger was so darn cute too. Wish we didn't have to wait until April for more of Outlander......torture!!!
Brizo wrote: "The final was interesting and at least the additions were in line with the storyline. But honestly, I think they cut too much of the book out to accommodate the Frank/Jack scenes just so they could..."I agree with everything in this post!
I love the show, I love 99% of what Ron Moore has done with it, but I feel like we missed out on a lot, just for the benefit of the eight-episode cliffhanger. I think I almost would have preferred that the entire show started this January, allowing us to see it all at once, as opposed to this midseason break, which feels somewhat forced, or cobbled together, to me.
Maybe it will eventually turn out to be a good thing, with viewer feedback causing things to be added or changed, but right now, it just feels as if we barely got started on the show, and now it's over.
Vanessa,You are definitely intitled to post your opinion and surely DG has heard plenty about Frank tho why she acted surprised is a mystery.
these threads are for people to post their opinions and their thoughts about the books and movies and not to be critiquing any one elses valid opinions
Diane wrote: " She WAS still determined to get back to Frank at this point even though she was falling in love with Jamie."Jamie and Claire only had one night together, the falling in love part happened with all the things they compressed out of this to have this mid-season finally. Although the books are definitely more than a love story, it's an adventure for both of them and they have lots of action sequences in different parts of the book. But it is the "love story" that is the constant driving all the adventures they have. So to minimize that is just stupid.
Vanessa Eden wrote: "I have to say this...DG says that we the readers misinterpret Frank. I for one have always felt sorry for him. However, I don't agree that the readers have misinterpreted frank no matter how they f..."I totally agree, even when (view spoiler) So it's Jamie's love that over and over again drives this story forward. He would do anything for Claire and proves it over and over again. Frank on the other hand is too busy thinking about himself, his ancestors, his history to care what Claire wants. That's why she's alone by the stones that day.. he was too busy to spend time with her.
Exactly, Brizo. Frank was a good step father to Bree but he was lacking as a husband ( Claire had her faults too). That is why I was annoyed when I read in an earlier post that DG thinks we have misinterpreted Franks character. I doubt that millions of people have misunderstood a character. When millions of people are at a consensus about a character and the writer thinks WE are the ones who have misunderstood that is pretty arrogant. Odds are if millions did not understand your "work" then perhaps one must explore the idea that perhaps the "work" was poorly executed.
gertt wrote: "Don't you think this was the same interpretation as the drowning scene...that..."
I never thought of it that way, but perhaps..
Gertt, I meant "sympathy" as in we are more invested in Jamie and Claire's characters ( and their relationship ) and therefore we identify more with them than Frank. We were more exposed to Jamie and Claire and therefore we rooted for them. Does that make sense!
gertt wrote: "I have never felt sympathy for Jamie and Claire. "Did you mean to say Frank and Claire?
gertt wrote: "I don't know Venessa, I always felt Frank was pretty much as he is portrayed in the movie and that Claire was the love of his life. To me, Claire and Frank loving each other gave the story and Cla..."I felt Franks love was more about him not loving her so much he would do anything for her. When she wanted to adopt a child he said no.. when they arrive on their second honeymoon where is he, sitting down reading his books.. come on is this a man in love???
Gertt I'm not discussing Franks character. I am discussing how most fans don't care much for frank and that DG says we have misinterpreted his character.
What we do know is Claire's POV. She didn't talk much about all the little romantic things she and frank were doing; just that he was doing research and all the troubles they had had. Seems to me if they hadn't been there much it wouldn't have been so much about visiting rev. Wakefield and a little more romance and sex.
Ellen wrote: "How did you all feel about the additiond/changes in this ep? The bit with Frank at the stones was a wonderfully poetic touch, I thought. So emotional for Frank, but it was still a bit strange to me..."In a way, it makes me feel a lot more sorry for Frank than I did when I read the book. In the book, I pegged him as a bit of a bore who was obsessed with his research and constantly ignored and/or neglected Claire. The series makes Claire and Frank seem more in love than I originally thought. It's been a while since I've read "Outlander", but I thought their marriage was struggling a bit and their visit was supposed to be a second honeymoon to rekindle things and Claire wasn't happy that he spent so much of their time together working?
I did like the dramatic touch of them being at the stones at the same time and able to hear each others cries. That was a nice addition.
Yes that was so moving. Poetry in motion.
I love the series. I am ok with the changes but okay, Jamie didn't threaten to spank her if she left. That is a huge deal. Did I miss something?
And my point is those people who thought differently than you... As you said yourself, you are in the minority... how can millions of people misinterpret a character... Like its their fault; my point is, if everyone excluding Gertt thinks that frank and Claire's relationship was lacking and he was sort of self centered and at times, an ass...that we have got it wrong? Perhaps it should have been written differently. He was written as a complete turd until DoA, in my opinion. If he was supposed to be looked at as a sweet guy who genuinely loved his wife then write it that way.
I don't recall that either. I am pretty sure he didn't but its been awhile sense I've read it.
You didn't Bertt it's just I think ya kinda missed my point.
gertt wrote: "Diane wrote: "I love how she almost went through the stones and was pulled back by the Redcoats at the last moment..."Don't you think this was the same interpretation as the drowning scene...that..."
Huh, good point. I actually didn't like the river part in the book. (Though when the Reverend brought up the river's fast current, I thought the show would depict the scene as is.) I think partly because it seems so coincidental. I mean, it's coincidental as well that the British would happen to be by the stones as soon as she gets there. What did Claire see in the grass by the stone? Had they set a trap for her?
Mochaspresso wrote: "Ellen wrote: "How did you all feel about the additiond/changes in this ep? The bit with Frank at the stones was a wonderfully poetic touch, I thought. So emotional for Frank, but it was still a bit..."I would agree. The honeymoon seemed to be very much about Frank's obsession with his ancestry. Not so much about what Claire would have wanted to do. Though I thought the compare and contrast between the two of them approaching the stones at the same time … it did make me think in a parallel universe, the story would be about the great love between Claire and Frank and how she returned to him. (view spoiler)
Alexa wrote: "I love the series. I am ok with the changes but okay, Jamie didn't threaten to spank her if she left. That is a huge deal. Did I miss something?"As far as I recall, he doesn't say anything about what he'd do if she didn't stay. She thinks she's left alone, but Jamie has secretly left Murtaugh or Angus behind to keep an eye on her. (view spoiler)
you know what I keep wondering and even tho I have read these books the last 15 or so yrs just like all of you on here I keep thinking Frank and Clair couldn`t have spent more than a few mo. together before she went thru the stonesI`m wondering if anyone has an answer off hand.Forgetting the book ,I just can`t forget that on their honeymoon Clair initiated EVERY seductive move but one and that's when he hurried an apology hug first after suggesting she was interested in a Scot,yet he spent as much time as possible acting the educated prof talking to anybody else and ignoring her.That is so burned into my brain that I just can`t feel he loves her.I feel Frank`s ego is probably in a mess since she said the worst thing even than death will be for her to go with a man.So I think it`s these kind of feeligs in a very egotistical man that makes me feel he is unhappy for his own self,not Clair.
Brizo wrote: "I liked the book version better. I wish they would get on more with Claire and Jamie and less with Frank and Black Jack. "I have a "first-love" theory about what people like better - the book, movie, or television series. It's what you first experienced and came to love - the first medium in which you found the story. Nothing after that can quite equal that first feeling.
gertt wrote: "Diane wrote: "I love how she almost went through the stones and was pulled back by the Redcoats at the last moment..."Don't you think this was the same interpretation as the drowning scene...that..."
Yes, I do that is why I liked that part of it. I just wished that it read as more intentional for Claire going back to the stones still even though she was falling in love with Jamie.
I only read outlander as the series started I have known about the series for a while but did not read it. Once I got into it I could not put it down but it took a while. I did not get a real sense of Jamie early on It really was from the wedding that it happened. I agree with some of you that the beginning of a connection between Jamie and Claire is missing from the series. The three day honeymoon so to speak connected them. It is through the time that Claire and Jamie are alone we get to know him best and its missing.As for Frank I don't mind the additions as it will play well for season two but I never got the sense of great love between them from either the book or the series so the scene at the stones make good cinema but felt out of character for me. And Claire running screaming Frank was to me over the top.
I too thought the finale would be Claire making a choice at Creigh Na Don as it was the pivitol moment for Jamie and Claire and the start of tons of interesting story to come
Done rambling now
Thanks for reading
