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Dombey and Son
Dombey and Son
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Dombey, Chapters 5 - 7
I have read this section, quickly reading as I got caught up in the excitement of Polly, Susan, little Paul, and especially Florence's adventure, which turned quite scary for poor Florence! I liked how when Walter came to her rescue and helped her home, he excitedly told his uncle how he was on an adventure.Now, not having read much Dickens, it must have been somewhere else I had read of children getting taken merely to steal their nice clothes in order to sell later on, but I can't remember where I had read this. It must have been quite a common crime, then?
Short post here, as I must get some work done in the yard before the sunny Sunday comes to a close.
The Christening Party
Chapter 5
Polly rescues the Charitable Grinder
Chapter 6
Dickens certainly is having quite the time developing the character of Dombey. His comment to his sister that "it would be agreeable to me to notice [Miss Tox]" is great. Then there is Dickens himself who writes of Dombey: "in all his life he had never made a friend." Mrs Chick says of Florence that "She didn't gain on her Papa in the least. How could one expect that she should, when she is so very unlike a Dombey."The christening party seems to take place in a crypt near the North Pole (sorry Kim). Dickens piles image upon word and phrase which reinforces the cold, heartless, tomblike feeling of this so called celebration. When it is commented that the only cheerful person at the church was "the undertaker" we get the full power and joy of Dickens' writing.
There is one minor redeeming action of Dombey in Chapter 5. He does arrange for Mrs. Richards' son to attend the Charitable Grinders School. Biler will be number 147, thus both mother, Mrs. Toodles aka Mrs. Richards and her son Biler, aka #147, have been depersonalized into different identities which symbolizes an objectification of a person (of the lower class) in the eyes of society/Dombey.There is, however a feeling of change in the air. As the group with Florence moves through Stagg's Gardens "There were a hundred thousand shapes and substances of incompleteness wildly mingled out of their places" Change is coming. The modern world symbolized by the railroad is transforming the landscape and altering or re-christening buildings, pubs and restaurants with names to reflect the coming railway's presence. "The Railroad was in progress ... [with] its mighty course of civilization and improvement."
I was guessing that Paul was between 3-6 months old but I searched for christening ages during Victorian times in England and found this:"The time chosen for a christening or baptism was usually when the child was between four and six weeks old. The ceremony, at times, was performed in church, with friends and family invited afterwards to the house for a breakfast or luncheon, as in the case of a wedding; but just as often the clergyman was requested to baptize the child at its own home. "
Mrs. Richards wasn't in the house as long as I thought she had been.
That christening scene was icy! Wow! For something that is supposed to be a rejoicing and a welcoming, it was a dismal affair. I would have thought that Dombey would have had such an affair for Florence but would have gone all out and welcoming for Paul.
Florence showed a great deal of stamina and courage during her ordeal. She kept her head. She was scared but she kept going. I was really worried for her during that scene.
I found it disheartening that no one would help her because of her clothing. She was jostled and pushed aside because of what she was wearing; no one ever stopped to actually look at her or listen to what she was trying to say. I guess that is still true today when buskers and the homeless hold out their hands. But this is a small child.
I've been thinking about Dombey's action of enrolling Biler into the school. This was a momentous thing for him to do and it caught me by surprise. I didn't think he would give Mrs. Richard's family one thought after they left his house. He doesn't seem that type....yet he did.
Yet, Mrs. Richards didn't seem to like the idea of her son wearing a uniform...or, perhaps, going to school? I wasn't sure what her objection was to this plan. Wouldn't this have been a good opportunity for Biler?
From reading Nicholas Nickelby, I realize that schools may not have been the best educational experiences but wasn't having attended a school still a stepping stone to a better career/job than if one had had no schooling?
Petra wrote: "I was guessing that Paul was between 3-6 months old but I searched for christening ages during Victorian times in England and found this:"The time chosen for a christening or baptism was usually ..."
Yes. There was much attention paid to Florence and what happened and who she meets on her wanderings through the streets. Dickens is certainly focussing much attention on her in these early chapters.
Petra wrote: "Yet, Mrs. Richards didn't seem to like the idea of her son wearing a uniform...or, perhaps, going to school? I wasn't sure what her objection was to this plan. Wouldn't this have been a good opportunity for Biler?"It seemed Polly was fixated on the uniform her son would be wearing, for some reason. And then when the passages described her son walking to and from school and being a target of bullying by the other children, I saw this as a sign that Polly knew that simply having the school uniform on would make her son a target. Maybe in her eyes, it would be better for her son to not have the educational opportunity if it meant being targeted as someone to be picked on.
I thought I remember reading that little Paul was 6 months old, but I would have to go back and find that section again to be sure.
About 6 or 7, I believe.
I too think she would have been about 6 or 7. She is six when Paul is born, and it doesn't seem like much time has gone by when this happens. Paul needed a wet nurse so he's a baby when Polly comes to the house, and it sounds like he was still very small during the baptism. The baptism is six months after Polly starts working there, so I'm guessing 7 years old for Florence. That's my math anyway. :-}
Peter wrote: "Dickens certainly is having quite the time developing the character of Dombey. His comment to his sister that "it would be agreeable to me to notice [Miss Tox]" is great. Then there is Dickens hi..."I loved what comes right after that comment:
Let it be no detraction from the merits of Miss Tox, to hint that in Mr Dombey's eyes, as in some others that occasionally see the light, they only achieved that mighty piece of knowledge, the understanding of their own position, who showed a fitting reverence for his. It was not so much their merit that they knew themselves, as that they knew him, and bowed low before him.
'My dear Paul,' returned his sister, 'you do Miss Tox but justice, as a man of your penetration was sure, I knew, to do. I believe if there are three words in the English language for which she has a respect amounting almost to veneration, those words are, Dombey and Son.'
I am very angry at Dickens. Very.What he did to Florence is inexcusable. It constitutes child abuse to put her through that horrendous experience. I was so upset at what Dickens was doing to her that I had to put the book down for awhile to compose myself.
Horrible, horrible, horrible. That he let it come out right in the end is no excuse at all for subjecting Florence to such terror.
Dickens, I hope you're rolling over and over and over in your grave and getting no rest at all for what you did.
Peter wrote: "The christening party seems to take place in a crypt near the North Pole (sorry Kim)."I loved every word of it. The descriptions were so cold and so wonderfully like "A Christmas Carol" to me, just "listen" to this from Dombey:
"Ugh! They were black, cold rooms; and seemed to be in mourning, like the inmates of the house. The books precisely matched as to size, and drawn up in line, like soldiers, looked in their cold, hard, slippery uniforms, as if they had but one idea among them, and that was a freezer."
And from A Christmas Carol:
"They were a gloomy suite of rooms, in a lowering pile of building up a yard, where it had so little business to be, that one could scarcely help fancying it must have run there when it was a young house, playing at hide-and-seek with other houses, and forgotten the way out again."
From Dombey:
"It happened to be an iron-grey autumnal day, with a shrewd east wind blowing—a day in keeping with the proceedings. Mr Dombey represented in himself the wind, the shade, and the autumn of the christening. He stood in his library to receive the company, as hard and cold as the weather; and when he looked out through the glass room, at the trees in the little garden, their brown and yellow leaves came fluttering down, as if he blighted them."
And then there's Scrooge:
"The cold within him froze his old features, nipped his pointed nose, shrivelled his cheek, stiffened his gait; made his eyes red, his thin lips blue; and spoke out shrewdly in his grating voice. A frosty rime was on his head, and on his eyebrows, and his wiry chin."
The descriptions just reminded me of each other, of course it doesn't take much to remind me of Christmas. :-}
Kim wrote: "Peter wrote: "The christening party seems to take place in a crypt near the North Pole (sorry Kim)."I loved every word of it. The descriptions were so cold and so wonderfully like "A Christmas C..."
Yes... it is grand when Dickens winds himself up and just lets his words, phrases, sentences, symbols and style just fly freely.
It's a cliché to say this but when Dickens is at the top of his game he has few peers.
Someone asked about the time lapsed between the Christening and birth of a child in England. My personal experience (I was born in Denmark): I was born in February and my parents did the Christening (and name giving at the same time) in June. I think that is pretty standard European. I would say there is a longer time lapse between birth and Christening if the birth takes place in the winter because many of those old churches, like the one I was baptized in (which was an old parish church from 1250), have no central heating, to this day and so Christening is more attractive in the summer, even if you only pour water over the baby's head. --- I can't speak to Victorian customs precisely, but I know from living in Denmark that often Christening is put off because family travels great distances to join (especially the chosen godparents), and warmer weather is more hospitable to travel in.Everyman, I saw your note about what Dickens did to Florence. It had me all up in arms too, just as I ached for poor Oliver Twist when he was made to sleep in a coffin. Dickens does terrible things to children. He killed little Nell too.
:P
Lene
Linda wrote: "Petra wrote: "Yet, Mrs. Richards didn't seem to like the idea of her son wearing a uniform...or, perhaps, going to school? I wasn't sure what her objection was to this plan. Wouldn't this have been..."Hi Linda
I recall baby Paul being 6 months old too. Rather old, I thought, to be christened in those times. Perhaps it being the church where his mother's funeral was, has something to do with it taking a while for his father to organise it.
Everyman wrote: "I am very angry at Dickens. Very.What he did to Florence is inexcusable. It constitutes child abuse to put her through that horrendous experience. I was so upset at what Dickens was doing to he..."
I agree that it is terrible what Florence had to suffer but it seems to me that the highs she experiences (e.g. her relationship with Richards and new friendship with Walter and Sol) need to be contrasted with the lowest of lows. This poor child is just used and abused. Of all the children I've met in Dickens' stories so far, I feel for Florence the most. Now Richards has gone, I fear for her even more. I hope, somehow, she is able to further develop a friendship with Sol and Walter.
Kate, I so agree. Florence is breaking my heart. Her situation is so dire and no one can help her. Only Mrs. Richards reached out and now she's gone. I'm very hopeful that a friendship between Sol & Walter will somehow continue. It may give her a small comfort once in awhile to be able to see them and see a more "normal" situation & relationship between people, family & friends.
I haven't read many Dickens books and they have all, in their way, pulled at heartstrings at times but this book is, so far, pulling at the heartstrings so much more than his other books did and we're just starting! Florence's situation is heartbreaking because of the neglect and abuse and general "not-wantedness". Mr. Dombey's situation is heartbreaking because he's a man of his times and, I think, would have been happier and wants something different (warmer, kinder, more tender) but he doesn't know this consciously. In a way, I hope he never realizes it consciously unless it's early enough for changes.
Petra wrote: "Kate, I so agree. Florence is breaking my heart. Her situation is so dire and no one can help her. Only Mrs. Richards reached out and now she's gone. I'm very hopeful that a friendship between Sol..."
Florence is a child who has already had to develop her survival skills. It must be horrible to live in the Dombey house. When Paul was born Florence must have felt her value shrink even more, if that is possible, yet she shows great love and tenderness for her younger brother.
Her wanderings through the streets and the abuse when she has her clothes stolen still do not defeat her intelligence and desire to find her way. It is ironic, but more sad, that her compass is to find the firm of Dombey and Son. At once, the place that is responsible for shunting her increasingly into a shadow of existence acts as the only beacon she knows to strive towards and find.
Peter wrote: "When Paul was born Florence must have felt her value shrink even more, if that is possible, yet she shows great love and tenderness for her younger brother."You bring up a good point here, Peter. Some children in Florence's situation would be jealous of the younger sibling for having taken all of their parent's attention (although Florence never had her father's attention to begin with). But Florence is not jealous at all, and instead wants to be with her little brother. And, not having the book with me at the moment, I think I remember her saying something to the effect of "he will love me!!", which is so very sad (not sad that it is her brother, but sad that she has to search around for someone to give her attention in the first place). She is looking for anyone to love her and give her attention.
As to the christening of little Paul, I also find that it comes at a very late date, but maybe this really has to do with the church being too cold and draughty in winter. However, as we cannot fail to notice, the church was a dismal, dark, and cold place anyway. I would also have thought that Paul's fragile health - I imply this from the want of his mother's milk so early in life and the procrastination in finding a wetnurse, which was due to Mr. Dombey's pride - might have made it important not to wait too long with the baptism because there might always have been the danger lurking around the corner of little Paul's dying unbaptized. That would surely have put him at a major disadvantage in his afterlife according to contemporary beliefs. By the way, in Germany there used to be the informal rule that you should not leave the house with your baby in a pram unless the child had been baptized before. Nowadays it is referred to jocosely still, but it might nevertheless work as an incentive to have parents have their children baptized rather early, due to social pressure. My daughter is still not christened, much to my wife's chagrin, but we are waiting for my father-in-law - who is a pastor - to come over from Argentina and do the ceremony himself.
Everyman, your sympathy with little Florence greatly redounds to your honour, but at least Dickens did not allow Mrs. Brown to cut off the girl's hair as she had originally intended.Apart from that, the scene made sense in that it not only showed how callously most people reacted to a girl that was clad in rags, but that it also gave a Cinderella-like quality to the first meeting between Florence and Walter Gay. Even the shoe-motif was picked up in that scene.
The whole episode had the air of a ghastly fairy-tale for me, all the more so as the narrator made us see the events from the child's view, endowing Mrs. Brown with witch-like hideousness and power. And yet, the narrator viewed the scene from the outside, e.g. by describing the imploring look that dissuades the old hag from shearing Florence's hair. This is really an instance of great writing.
By the way, did you notice that even here Mr. Dombey was not really worried about his daughter but that he remained relatively unaffected? His wrath against Polly and Susan did not originate so much from any awareness of the dangers Florence had been exposed to by their negligence, but rather from the fact that his employees had dared to introduce his Son into a family he regards as socially inferior to his own family. Even in a situation in which most fathers, however distanced and authoritarian they may be, might have discovered their hearts for their daughters, Mr. Dombey remains true to his shallow pride.
Dombey's gesture towards the Toodles in securing a modest scholarship for Biler is surely a surprising act of kindness in somebody like him, but it does more harm than good.It is quite interesting that the uniform should single out its wearer for physical and mental bullying at the hands of the other children, but this is probably because they resent the chance a rudimentary education might give Biler, whom they consider one of their own rank and file. They could surely tell by the uniform that the boy attends a charity school.
There is another point here I find both interesting, and slightly unpleasant with regard to the narrator: Whereas he describes Florence's plight with a certain pathos and seriousness, Biler's experience of being bullied and licked by dozens of mostly older boys, which surely must have been a terrible experience for him, is presented semi-humourously. Why does the narrator make light of the terror of a child like Biler, when he takes seriously the terror of a child like Florence? Can we not see a certain trace of class-thinking on Dickens's part here?
Tristram wrote: "As to the christening of little Paul, I also find that it comes at a very late date, but maybe this really has to do with the church being too cold and draughty in winter. However, as we cannot fai..."In your family too! When I was little every time a baby was born within a few days he would say, "you better get him/her baptized, we don't want to take him out unto you do." So within a few weeks (I guess) he or she was baptized. As I got older I started asking dad why we didn't want to take the baby out and he said, "we don't want anything to happen to the baby, if it dies it won't go to heaven." Again I was quiet and accepted this until I was a teenager when once again dad came out with the "baby won't go to heaven until he's baptized" comment and I told him that was one of the dumbest things I ever heard. Nevertheless when my kids were born we had them baptized quick, just to keep peace in the family. :-} Oh, many years later I happened to ask him if you're baptized as a baby then do you go to heaven no matter what you do in your life, and he replied "no it only works for awhile." :-}
Tristram wrote: "As to the christening of little Paul, I also find that it comes at a very late date, but maybe this really has to do with the church being too cold and draughty in winter. However, as we cannot fai..."Yes, I wanted to point this out as well...The coldness surrounding every aspect of the Christening. For such an auspicious occasion, I felt a real sadness, maybe even shrouded by the presence of the Grim Reaper- I would think, more joy and elation should have been endured?
Honestly, once Florence took flight from the chaos of the streets and fell into the hands of old Mrs. Brown, I thought she was a goner-I did not think she would end up coming home so soon. As far as the wickedness and depravity of Dickens' treatment of children, this was par for the course; in fact, I was expecting much worse for Florence. Again, I was not expecting her to come home so soon. Thank God she did-so gut wrenching!
Would I be correct in speculating Miss Tox to be an opportunist. The first interaction, between Mrs. Chick and Miss Tox, in the Dombey house led me to believe she was there for a specific purpose...A replacement for Mrs. Dombey-she had not even passed at that point!
Tristram,I like your Cinderella observation (complete with rags and shoes). Great point!!
My thoughts were the same with regards to Biler. I recoiled at how he described the bullying, almost as if it did not really matter. I wonder if that were a subconscious class reaction on the part of Dickens, or a boy-girl distinction. After all, boys should soon learn to defend themselves against bullies. We do not get the same sense that Florence will grow up to protect herself. Dickens very much in his descriptions seems to indicate that gentile women need taking care of.
As for the churches, I can't remember who mentioned it, the churches I have grown up with in Europe, mostly medieval parish churches are dark, stony and cold in appearance. Modern electricity has been installed, and running water where needed, ditto for some heat, but they are cold affairs in winter all the same. --- I was wondering, though, whether this whole baptismal scene with its frigidity says more about Dickens' (or Dombey's) view of God, of the sacrament of Baptism, of those who go to church. We don't get a sense once the sacrament has been performed that little Paul has been welcomed into the family of God, nor that anything has taken place that means anything special. In fact, who were his godparents on this occasion? (It has been a week since I red it, did I miss it?)
Lene wrote: "Tristram,I like your Cinderella observation (complete with rags and shoes). Great point!!
My thoughts were the same with regards to Biler. I recoiled at how he described the bullying, almost as ..."
I thought Miss Tox was appointed his godmother?
Yes, Miss Tox was appointed the godmother.Ami, I think Miss Tox has her sights set on Dombey, too. First, the Major (?....her neighbour) but she dropped him when she was admitted into the Dombey home.
I'm enjoying Dombey and Son. --Did notice something that happened in Chapter VI. It seems like Dickens created an updated, urban fairy tale of sorts. When Florence is confused and running away, the old hag, "Good" Mrs Brown, leads her off into her hovel.
It's like Florence is wandering in deep woods, it's so confusing. She pushes Florence into the room and there is "a heap of bones" and a heap of rags. She threatens to kill Florence, makes her take off her clothes and puts them on, and I think Mrs Brown may have wanted Florence's hair?
This frightening episode reminded me of Vasilisa and Baba Yaga, or the hags in Grimm stories. The pile of bones really did it.
Then she gives her a task -- to stand at the street corner until 3 o'clock. Baba Yaga and these folk tales frequently have the witch (or a frightening male figure) giving them tasks to accomplish by the next day, etc. So Florence stands there waiting for 3 o'clock, afraid that Good Mrs Brown is watching her at all times.
Then Walter rescues her, just like a fairy tale prince. (His uncle Sol, I think, had joked and hinted before that Walter might form an alliance with Dombey's daughter.) Anyway, to make it even more explicit, Dickens writes -- "Walter picked up the shoe and put it on the little foot as the Prince in the story might have fitted Cinderella's slipper on." Walter is so pure that he even tried to get his older friend to go to Dombey's for the announcement so his friend can take the credit.
My point is when I started reading this whole section, it seemed to engage something in me at a different level. And last night when I read the "slipper on the foot" sentence, I realized that for a few minutes I was emotionally taken back to a folk-tale kind of experience with the frightening hag, a pile of bones. Baba Yaga riding in a morter and pestle (to grind bones), witches with ovens to bake children, all are very scary. Good Mrs. Brown was also scary. And Walter was a real prince. I hope we have seen the last of "Good" Mrs Brown!
Oops, I see Tristram already commented on the folk-tale like quality of the chapter. Sorry about that.
Mark wrote: "Oops, I see Tristram already commented on the folk-tale like quality of the chapter. Sorry about that."I'm sure Tristram will not mind. Since I forgot to thank him for his observation I'll thank you both at the same time.
There certainly is a great deal going on in these early chapters!
Petra wrote: "Kate, I so agree. Florence is breaking my heart. Her situation is so dire and no one can help her. Only Mrs. Richards reached out and now she's gone. I'm very hopeful that a friendship between Sol..."
The reality is that if this were real life, she would be so emotionally damaged that it would be virtually impossible for her to grow up to live a healthy life. She has no emotional link, like the orphan children in Eastern Europe who grew up institutionally autistic. Richards came into her life almost too late to do any good, but what good she did has now been destroyed by her sudden departure; it is likely that Florence will find some way to blame herself for this, since she can't see anybody else to blame for it -- if she hadn't gotten lost, she must think, Richards wouldn't have been fired.
We can only hope that her relationship with Paul will finally enable her to have at least one loving relationship in her life, but will her father find some way to destroy even that bond?
I agree totally with Kate's observation that "Of all the children I've met in Dickens' stories so far, I feel for Florence the most."
Tristram wrote: "Dombey's gesture towards the Toodles in securing a modest scholarship for Biler is surely a surprising act of kindness in somebody like him, .."Kindness? I'm not so sure. Maybe. But maybe it was more an admission of guilt at forcing the absolute separation of Biler from his mother. Or maybe it was a reinforcement of his apparent belief that only sons matter in this life.
Petra wrote: "Ami, I think Miss Tox has her sights set on Dombey, too."Oh, yes, I definitely agree. Will he be that stupid, though? But men can be pretty stupid when women flatter (and their sons) them so continuously.
Mark wrote: " She threatens to kill Florence, makes her take off her clothes and puts them on, "One thing we might need to worry about is whether the old dirty clothes are also infected with smallpox or some other noxious germ. Will Florence get seriously ill from them? Time will tell.
Everyman wrote: "I agree totally with Kate's observation that "Of all the children I've met in Dickens' stories so far, I feel for Florence the most."I also feel that in other novels, Dickens often romanticises Victorian hardships. I see glimpses of it with Richards' own family, but in general, I feel a more serious and honest tone in Dombey and Son.
Also, I remember our conversations about poor little Nell and the misgivings of her grandfather. He infuriated me but now I think he looks like an angel in comparison to Florence's father. Even her only other blood relative - her aunt - offers no real comfort. At least Nell's grandfather was trying to do what he thought was right for her, in his delusion. Dombey is cold to the bone, treating his own daughter that way.
Everyman wrote: "Kindness? I'm not so sure. Maybe. But maybe it was more an admission of guilt at forcing the absolute separation of Biler from his mother. Or maybe it was a reinforcement of his apparent belief that only sons matter in this life. ..."
I'm not sure if I believe that Dombey would ever feel guilt (never mind admit to it). He's not that type. And I wonder if he cares whether Biler (or the other kids) are separated from either of their parents or left to fend for themselves. I would doubt that he gives them (or the family as a whole) a second thought. They are beneath him in status and, therefore, below his thought process.
I'm not sure whether I think he did a kindness either. I'm a bit puzzled by his actions in this case. It involves thinking about someone else besides himself & his son and he hasn't shown that side of himself yet.
Everyman wrote: "Oh, yes, I definitely agree. Will he be that stupid, though? But men can be pretty stupid when women flatter (and their sons) them so continuously. ..."I think he'd be that stupid. And I think that it would put Florence in a worse situation at home.....which breaks my heart already.
Everyman wrote: "One thing we might need to worry about is whether the old dirty clothes are also infected with smallpox or some other noxious germ. Will Florence get seriously ill from them? Time will tell. ..."
I sure hope not. She's got enough to deal with. Poor thing.
Kate wrote: "Everyman wrote: " Even her only other blood relative - her aunt - offers no real comfort. ..."Could this be because Mrs. Chick was treated the same as a (girl) child? Can it be that she doesn't see anything wrong with Florence's treatment since it's how she was brought up herself in a Dombey & Son household?
@Everyman,I thought the same about the neglect of Florence and of other children like Oliver Twist. They would have attachment disorders out the whazoo and they would not be able to function and be humble kind persons who quietly seek love. Usually persons like that (who are severely neglected as children) develop severely dysfunctional coping mechanism and turn out to be narcissistic or borderline personality disorder (or something else from the DSM). That has always been my one bone with Dickens: his over-romanticizing childhood hardship and his turning needy neglected children into paradigms of virtue, when likely their compensation strategies will make them difficult for normal persons to deal with.
@ Ami - thanks, I did not notice myself that Mrs. Tox was the godparent.
Kate wrote: "Everyman wrote: "I agree totally with Kate's observation that "Of all the children I've met in Dickens' stories so far, I feel for Florence the most."I also feel that in other novels, Dickens oft..."
Kate
You have raised a good point of discussion/debate: Nell's grandfather or Mr. Dombey as the most neglectful and abusive parent.
At this point I would say Dombey. While his own upbringing may not have been a great model for his own method of parenting, and even his "parenting" of Paul rather cold and shadowy, both symbolically and literally, Dombey does show some attention to Paul, he does show obvious interest in his son's future and he even does make some effort to aid Mrs. Richards' son obtain an education of sorts, but for Florence there is virtually nothing that gives evidence of a father's love to a child.
Nell's grandfather was not a paragon of virtue and it is impossible to excuse the theft of money from your own grandchild for the purposes of gambling, but the grandfather did, albeit with misguided actions at times, at least care for Nell. In reality, Nell acted as the parent for her own grandfather, but if we could measure love and hearts the ledger, in my opinion, would show Nell's grandfather's heart as the richer in love towards a child than Dombey's, whose heart is, at best, engherzig. (Tristram. Something tells me I've used the word in the wrong context/syntax, but I had to try it out ;>} )
Mark wrote: "Hmm. Mrs Tox...ic?"Nice.
Peter wrote: "You have raised a good point of discussion/debate: Nell's grandfather or Mr. Dombey as the most neglectful and abusive parent."And perhaps we should add into the mix the Jellybys, not to mention the father substitute, Ralph Nicholby. And when we get to that book, David Copperfield's step-father.
When you think about it, there are lots of less than sterling parents or parent substitutes in Dickens.
But isn't that almost a necessity for dramatic realistic fiction involving children? When children have a good life in a loving family, what is there to write about that will grab the reader's interest? Conflict is what makes drama, and loving, stable families don't create much conflict.
Joy wrote: "Meh. These people are just paper dolls. "I do believe that that's the first time I have ever seen Meh in a Goodreads post!
Joy wrote: "Guess this post will earn me a spot with the grumps.That doesn't earn you a full grump spot, but it's a beginning. Perhaps we'll admit you to apprentice grumpship.
Oh well Im also refusing to decorate for Christmas until after Thanksgiving."
How long can Christmas decorating take? Come on, how long really does it take to hang a few mini-balls on the Peace Lily and call it good?
Everyman wrote: " But men can be pretty stupid when women flatter..."True. :-}
Everyman wrote: "How long can Christmas decorating take? Come on, how long really does it take to hang a few mini-balls on the Peace Lily and call it good?"Cue response from Kim in 3...2...1....
today it's but a short post to open the Sunday thread for discussion. I have not read very far into this week's allotment up to now, but I'm sure the discussion will thrive even without my sparking it off, judging from the insightful contributions you made last week. I hope I'll have finished reading Chapters 5 - 7 by Tuesday ;-)