The Pickwick Club discussion
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Dombey and Son
Dombey and Son
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Dombey, Chapters 5 - 7
Petra wrote: "Kate wrote: "Everyman wrote: " Even her only other blood relative - her aunt - offers no real comfort. ..."Could this be because Mrs. Chick was treated the same as a (girl) child? Can it be that ..."
I'd say so Petra. She'd only know the circumstances she was brought up in and see them as the normal way, sadly.
Peter wrote: "Kate wrote: "Everyman wrote: "I agree totally with Kate's observation that "Of all the children I've met in Dickens' stories so far, I feel for Florence the most."I also feel that in other novels..."
I agree Peter. However I wonder, what will be most damaging - the neglect of Florence because of her sex or the familial/business (and no doubt unwavering) expectations set for Paul Jnr?
Kate wrote: "I'd say so Petra. She'd only know the circumstances she was brought up in and see them as the normal way, sadly. ..."
That's what I was saying, Kate. I don't think Florence (or us readers) can (or does or even thinks about) expect any help from Mrs. Chick. She sees this treatment and behavior from men as normal.
Kate wrote: "Peter wrote: "Kate wrote: "Everyman wrote: "I agree totally with Kate's observation that "Of all the children I've met in Dickens' stories so far, I feel for Florence the most."I also feel that i..."
Good question, Kate. So far we have seen that Florence has been able to hold her own in her dysfunctional household. Although still young Florence has some "street smarts" and seems to have an engaging personality. Those attributes will serve her well, but being a female is one hurdle she cannot change in her road ahead.
It's too soon to know how little Paul will deal with the familial/business expectations, but as little as Mr. Dombey's expectations seems to be for Florence the expectations Dombey has for Paul will be very great indeed.
Petra wrote: "Kate wrote: "I'd say so Petra. She'd only know the circumstances she was brought up in and see them as the normal way, sadly. ..."
That's what I was saying, Kate. I don't think Florence (or us re..."
I read your previous post noticing an absence of empathy from Mrs. Chick for Florence's treatment by Mr. Dombey...My eyes were huge and I thought, of course, that must be it... Mrs. Chick must have been treated the very same way!? However; do you get a sense, despite how she (Mrs. Chick) may have been prioritized amongst her siblings, that she tends to be more of a confident woman than an uncertain one? What I mean is, Mrs. Chick's upbringing, the same as Florence's (we speculate), has not nearly been as damaging to her persona (that we notice, currently) ?
Mrs. Chick rules the roost in her household and has had the upper hand in quite a few conversations with Mr. Dombey who does not easily relent in his position with others-I do not think he's one to just pacify either...Is he? I have found him to bow down to her in a few instances. For somebody who was ignored and not doted upon as a child, her demeanor as an adult is a little contradictory to what I would think she would personify as a child raised in an abusive (emotional) environment? Now, I could have read Mrs. Chick incorrectly, but for the most part, I find her to be very certain with a hint of neurosis.
Yes Ami, I agree about Mrs Chick. Perhaps she came through childhood unscathed; maybe as a consequence of a hard outer shell. She certainly does not display vulnerability as a grown woman.
Maybe Florence will be confident, too? There's no indication yet that she isn't. She's lonely and unloved and ignored. But we haven't seen that she's not confident, have we? The scene where she was let loose in London showed trepidation but no cowering. She was confident (in her small, child-like way) that she would find her way to Dombey & Son.
Yes, she was frightened and unsure but in no way cowering or simpering. That's confidence on some level.
Perhaps confidence is the wrong word when talking about Mrs. Chick (and, perhaps, Florence)? Is Mrs. Chick confident or is she self-reliant? Has she learned to take care of herself (ie: she's become hard and inflexible in things that revolve around and are about herself)?
Self-reliance can be seen by others as the person having a hard outer shell and lacking vulnerability. The vulnerability is hidden under that hard outer shell.
Mr. Dombey must have had a cold upbringing with a cold father just like himself. Although the father "loves" the son, it's not a warm love and the child (Mr. Dombey) must have felt that coldness. His sister probably was warmer and kinder to him than his father. Having relished that warmth and kindness in the child sister, he's more apt to have grown closer to her than to anyone else in his world and, because of that, listens to her and includes her into his world more, even as an adult.
In a sense, he's not relenting to her opinion as much as he's listening to her more because of their warm, loving bond from childhood. It's his only experience with warmth...maybe.
Petra wrote: "Maybe Florence will be confident, too? There's no indication yet that she isn't. She's lonely and unloved and ignored. But we haven't seen that she's not confident, have we? The scene where she wa..."
That's a great point..."self-reliance." I guess I'll have to read further with it in mind and find out...I hope the answer will surface?
I utilized the word "confidence" to describe Mrs. Chick primarily because of her tone when speaking to her husband and those around her. Mrs. Chick is a smart cunning woman who knows how to manipulate people to achieve a desired outcome-Now this I definitely see as a coping mechanism due to her childhood.
Kate wrote: "I agree Peter. However I wonder, what will be most damaging - the neglect of Florence because of her sex or the familial/business (and no doubt unwavering) expectations set for Paul Jnr? "Is it too early for those reading the novel for the first time to speculate whether Paul will ever become a full-fledged participant in Dombey and Son? I'm dubious; I would love to see Paul reject the business and decide to be a musician and for Florence to come in and take his place in the firm and Dombey to realize with a shock what a valuable daughter he has after all.
Would Dickens dare?
Petra wrote: "I don't think Florence (or us readers) can (or does or even thinks about) expect any help from Mrs. Chick. She sees this treatment and behavior from men as normal. "Hmmmm. She handles both Dombey and Mr. Chick pretty firmly, doesn't she?
Hilary wrote: "Yes Ami, I agree about Mrs Chick. Perhaps she came through childhood unscathed; maybe as a consequence of a hard outer shell. She certainly does not display vulnerability as a grown woman."I agree with what is being said. It leads me to think that she (Mrs Chick) did have a similar upbringing to Florence - to know one's place as a daughter and child. Now as an adult, Dombey respects his sister's knowledge and the role of her sex, which he seems knows he has no right to interfere with and he has no interest in him. Clearly the family has stoic ideologies of each sex yet respects them for it, knowing the line should not be crossed.
I hope that makes sense!
I should add, hence Mrs Chick is confident in her role.
Everyman wrote: "Kate wrote: "I agree Peter. However I wonder, what will be most damaging - the neglect of Florence because of her sex or the familial/business (and no doubt unwavering) expectations set for Paul Jn..."That's what I was thinking Everyman - what would happen if Paul rejected his position?! I have known people whose fathers have expected them to be involved in the family business, regardless of their interest in it or own career goals. That type of family pressure has created numerous issues. I can't think of anything worse than living a life someone else expects you to lead, for their sake/happiness rather than the person living it.
Not that Florence's position is enviable, but why, to some of you, does Florence's position seem the most painful of all the children depicted in Dickens. She is neglected, yes, unnoticed, but fed, and with her maid and servants.Personally my heart was much more pierced by David Copperfield, whose mother married an abusive husband who truly mistreated David, not just by ignoring him, but both physically and emotionally was abusive. David's mother was weakwilled and spineless, and David saw her to the grave because of the abuse. THAT was unbearable to me, and so much worse than what Florence suffers. (Ditto Olver Twist... serious, serious neglect and abuse both.)
Everyman wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Dombey's gesture towards the Toodles in securing a modest scholarship for Biler is surely a surprising act of kindness in somebody like him, .."Kindness? I'm not so sure. Maybe..."
Maybe he could just not stand the thought of being indebted to the Toodles for the survival of his son. He probably paid Polly a munificent fee, but by installing her son at that school he could even say that he was doing something for the Toodle son as well.
Mark wrote: "Hmm. Mrs Tox...ic?"Ach, Mark, she's not as bad as that, I'd say. Just a little bit on the scheming side.
Joy wrote: "Meh. These people are just paper dolls. Or I'm just heartless. must have something to do with liking math. It usually takes me 75% of any Dickens novel to like any of the characters well enough to ..."As a stout Simpsons aficionado, I would like to underscore your Meh, but then I'm also one of this group's grumps! It's probably hard to say this but so far I do not really care a lot about Florence since the narrator idealizes her too much. Just consider the scene from Chapter 5,
"'Oh! dear nurse!' said the child, looking earnestly up in her face, 'let me lie by my brother!'
'Why, my pet?' said Richards.
'Oh! I think he loves me,' cried the child wildly. 'Let me lie by him. Pray do!'
Mrs Chick interposed with some motherly words about going to sleep like a dear, but Florence repeated her supplication, with a frightened look, and in a voice broken by sobs and tears.
'I'll not wake him,' she said, covering her face and hanging down her head. 'I'll only touch him with my hand, and go to sleep. Oh, pray, pray, let me lie by my brother to-night, for I believe he's fond of me!'
Richards took her without a word, and carrying her to the little bed in which the infant was sleeping, laid her down by his side. She crept as near him as she could without disturbing his rest; and stretching out one arm so that it timidly embraced his neck, and hiding her face on the other, over which her damp and scattered hair fell loose, lay motionless.
'Poor little thing,' said Miss Tox; 'she has been dreaming, I daresay.'"
That all sounds so stylized and idealized to me that Florence does actually not come over as a real child but rather as one of those paper children from the good-boy-bad-boy-story-books Mark Twain was always enclined to make fun of. In short, Florence fails to convince me as a real character as she is too submissive, considerate and eager to please. One could argue that this was the natural consequence of the way she was treated by her father and her aunt but as was already pointed out she was not half as badly used as Oliver Twist or David Copperfield. Apart from that I'd say that a child who sees that her sibling is so much preferred by the family would be very likely to grow jealous (and maybe sullen).
Tristram wrote: " It's probably hard to say this but so far I do not really care a lot about Florence "Of course you don't, grump.
I'm sure you don't like Tiny Tim, either, since he's just a female Florence.
There doesn't seem to be any hint of jealousy on Florence's part at the moment. I think that as she has lost her mother she instinctively clings to the only being, who is of her own flesh and blood, who will not cold shoulder her. He is also the nearest bond that she has with her mother. She has obviously transferred all of her love unto her little brother.
Hilary wrote: "There doesn't seem to be any hint of jealousy on Florence's part at the moment. I think that as she has lost her mother she instinctively clings to the only being, who is of her own flesh and bloo..."I agree. I think that Florence is a good, kind soul and if anyone shows the least kindness or attention to her she returns that care. Paul, of course, is the main example, but Walter Gay and all others who come to be with her find her goodness.
I think she will act as a compass that will point the readers to the direction of those who are good, or who have the potential for good. For those like Good Mrs. Brown she will chart a course of avoidance.
Yes Peter, absolutely! She will be wise enough to give the 'Good Mrs Brown's of this world a wide girth.
Linda wrote: "Everyman wrote: "How long can Christmas decorating take? Come on, how long really does it take to hang a few mini-balls on the Peace Lily and call it good?"Cue response from Kim in 3...2...1...."
If you start on, oh say October 20th, it will take probably two days to take all the furniture that there will be no room for out to the garage. A few chairs, some antique spinning wheels, a bench in the dining room, an old ice box, a quilt rack, etc. Then you must move around the rest of the furniture to make room for the trees and villages; the sofa gets pushed down to the very end of the living room, and a table in the living room goes under the stairs, the dining room table and chairs must all be moved, the keyboard upstairs and the piano downstairs get moved. All family pictures are put away.Since everything is now moved I will clean under the things the seldom get cleaned under and we are ready to bring the platforms in and have used up about 5 days. The next few days the platforms get uncovered and brought in from the garage; two for the living room, two for the kitchen, one for the dining room and two for the family room.
About 3 more days goes by assembling them. Then the trees, one 13', one 9', two 8' and five 5' trees come in and get decorated. The 13' takes three days just to put together, the rest are faster, about one day each for the bigger ones. Then they get decorated, three days for the 13', two days for each of the rest. About 15 or 16 days have now gone by and it's time for the garlands. Garlands on the stair railing, along the beams in the living room, around every room's doorway, along the fireplace (there are 3 of them), and above the kitchen shelves, with "fluffing" them out, putting on lights and pinecones and such things I'll say 4 days. Now we're at the nativities; two in the living room, two in the family room, one in the kitchen, one in each bedroom, one in the bathroom, four in the dining room, four in the "front" room as we call it. And now, finally I am at the villages, 300 or so houses spread among ten villages (there are too many for just one or two villages). The villages take about two weeks. I'm down to the bathrooms and bedrooms now, Christmas curtains, Christmas quilts, rugs, shower curtains, such things. When I start the villages my husband starts outside, I join him when the inside is finished. Between 1000's of lights and the big nativity, and two full size sleighs, and full size nutcrackers at the end of the driveways, it's about three weeks. We start on October 20th and try to finish by Thanksgiving Day because a lot of people seem to have that day and the long weekend that follows off from work and start coming to see the house then. Besides, it's Jesus' birthday and that's what I'm most thankful for.
So get started, it will take you longer because you aren't an expert yet. :-}
86 days until Christmas.
Everyman wrote: "Tristram wrote: " It's probably hard to say this but so far I do not really care a lot about Florence "Of course you don't, grump.
I'm sure you don't like Tiny Tim, either, since he's just a fe..."
I'd say I do care for Tiny Tim, but then at Christmas I feel more sentimental and that may well impair my literary taste and judgment, at least temporarily.
Hilary wrote: "There doesn't seem to be any hint of jealousy on Florence's part at the moment. I think that as she has lost her mother she instinctively clings to the only being, who is of her own flesh and bloo..."Hilary, that's a very sound and convincing observation! Florence will probably always be reminded of her mother through little Paul!
Joy wrote: "3 days max. You start on the day after Thanksgiving, after hitting the stores early for the Black Friday sale and going over budget even though you promised yourself it was cash only this year. ..."
I hate pre-lit trees, it takes forever to get the lights off of them when sections of them quit working, which is about one a year. I know because I have one, it used to be pre-lit, now it finally isn't, but it took days and days to get the lights off of it.
Kim, I admire your energy and dedication to Christmas decorating. I love that you get such fun out of it! Joy, I can identify with so much of what you say. Hilarious! I wonder if there is some sort of singles' club where lost decorations and single socks meet. I mean they might as well have the delights of celebrating Christmas too.
All this Christmas talk is getting me excited for the holidays, and it isn't even Halloween yet!
Haha Linda ... and you have Thanksgiving too. In Ireland we have Hallowe'en and then jump straight to Christmas.
I'm in Spain, so no Thanksgiving nor Hallowe'en (though the cemeteries on All Saints' Day smell wonderful). What we do have is a Christmas which starts around the 6th-8th December (national holidays both) and ends on 6th January, when the kids finally get their presents, and the adults thankfully go back to work the day afterwards. I spend half a day on decorating the flat, which I love doing, but to be honest if I didn't, I don't think anyone would notice.
(Except my cat, who plays half-heartedly with the baubles on the tree for 30 seconds).
Oh yes, can't forget Thanksgiving! And I even grew my own sugar pie pumpkins this year for the occasion. Luckily I was able to save one lone pumpkin from the onslaught of squirrels, raccoons, opossums, and whatever other critters who decided to have a go at my garden late in the summer.
That's wonderful, Linda. I've had the pleasure of one big family Thanksgiving meal in Texas many moons ago and also one in Canada. Both lovely occasions. I often wonder how you have the energy for Christmas though, coming as it does so soon afterwards!
Pip, we have a niece and her husband and baby who live in Spain. She and the rest of her family spent 8 of their formative years in Spain. Because of them we always try to keep at least one present to open on the Feast of Epiphany or Old Christmas Day as some call it here.
Hilary wrote: "Pip, we have a niece and her husband and baby who live in Spain. She and the rest of her family spent 8 of their formative years in Spain. Because of them we always try to keep at least one prese..."Oh, that's lovely! Whereabouts in Spain are they? I'm way up north between bilbao and France.
They are in Madrid and their beautiful intimate wedding in Alcalá was in summer 2013. The three girls spent their childhoods near Malaga/Marbella. It's great for them as they are totally bilingual. They had gone to university in Scotland, but our eldest niece returned to Spain as she thought of it as home.I'm sure that it's lovely where you live. Oh for some lovely Spanish sunshine!
Hilary wrote: "Yes Peter, absolutely! She will be wise enough to give the 'Good Mrs Brown's of this world a wide girth."Sometimes that's not possible.
And sometimes Dickens won't allow it even when it would be possible. After all, what use is it to spend the time creating a figure of sweetness and light if she never gets tested against characters who are less so?
Kim wrote: "86 days until Christmas. "85 days until time to start Christmas shopping.
Joy wrote: "3 days max. ..."
I like your thinking.
Kim wrote: "Then the trees, one 13', one 9', two 8' and five 5' trees come in and get decorated. "You left out the very important part about taking the pick-up over to the mainland to the national forest to get your $5.00 permit which allows you to cut two trees, then spend hours happily tramping through the forest looking for the perfect trees.
Settling for an artificial tree instead of a real tree is like settling for a prostitute instead of a spouse.
Here in Canada we celebrate Thanksgiving in Mid-October. That gives a better spread of time between the Thanksgiving turkey and the Christmas turkey. I imagine our earlier Thanksgiving has something to do with the earlier arrival of winter in Canada.Our big phrase here to signal the coming winter is "there's frost on the pumpkin."
Fabulous Peter! I couldn't remember the date if Csnadian
Oops - of Canadian Thanksgiving. We stumbled upon it accidentally in the midst of a tour where we were admiring the beautiful autumn leaves. 'Frost on the pumpkin' - love that.Everyman, I ought to have said that the characters ought to give 'Good Mrs Brown' a wide berth; she may or may not have a wide girth, but it is certainly none of my business to give her one.
I know, I know, Dickens won't let us off with sugar plums and fairies, but sometimes I wish I lived in a kind of Never Neverland, probably a lot like Kim's house at Christmas! This is meant as a compliment, Kim, btw, especially as you have a high regard for Bronners' in Frankenmuth! You obviously have exquisite taste.
Everyman, I think you could make a killing selling artificial trees by using that strap line! ;-)
Hilary wrote: "I ought to have said that the characters ought to give 'Good Mrs Brown' a wide berth; she may or may not have a wide girth, but it is certainly none of my business to give her one."Ha ha!! Too funny, Hilary. :D
Awh, you're too kind Linda! Thank you! :-)
Hilary wrote: "Kim, btw, especially as you have a high regard for Bronners' in Frankenmuth! You obviously have exquisite taste."Darn right I do. Just ask the grumps. :-}
Everyman wrote: "You left out the very important part about taking the pick-up over to the mainland to the nationa..."As to you, Mr. Grinch, there are two reasons I have given up on real trees; the first is because the needles would be falling off like mad, killing all the people in the villages who live underneath them if they were brought in two months before the one day everyone else celebrates the Lord's birth (I give it a month). One year we had a real tree that is exactly what happened, every time someone brushed against it another branch full of needles would fall to the earth knocking down people left and right, covering the snow (fake snow by the way) and leaving a not too beautiful bare branch in the middle of the tree. The second reason real trees have been banned is apparently praying mantis' lay eggs in pine trees. How do I know this you are probably asking yourself? Because when you drag the real tree into the house and get it all decorated and the praying mantis eggs get nice and warm they hatch and you happen to walk into the living room and see about 5000 little praying mantis' running or hopping or flying I forget which all over the place. Then I used the vacuum cleaner to get them out of the house which took two days and my sister informed me I could have been arrested for killing praying mantis. I have no idea if that's true but everyone in the valley has asked me about that story at one time or another and so far I haven't been arrested. So there. If your house gets swarmed with baby praying mantis just remember I warned you.
The Paying Mantis story is hilarious, Kim. I'm sure you're safe from the law by now!
I love praying mantises. We sadly don't get them out her in the West coast, but when I was unfortunate enough to have to live in Pennsylvania, I used to catch them and put them in jars and enjoy watching them until bedtime when my mother made me let them loose to re-catch the next day. I would love to have some in my garden -- they are voracious killers of all sorts of nasty bugs.
That said, there is no penalty for killing a mantis, other than that what will happen to you if you murder an innocent being in the midst of its praying.
http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/m...
And perhaps we should add into the mix the Jellybys, n..."
A great question for discussion and debate is certainly good and bad parent and parent substitutes. Just like Kim's 10 villains list, and our beginning discussions on strong, weak and believable women there is a great deal to think about. Just think ... we are only half-way through Dickens' canon. For now, Dombey is certainly in my 10 worst parents, perhaps even the top five.
My sympathy for Florence is greater than for Oliver at this point in time. Lots of interesting reading coming up for our Fall/Winter long, cold/cool nights. Ah Kate, remind us what it's like awaiting summer down under.