De Profundis - Buddy Read

[Cynda]

In October, Cynda, Sue, and Kathleen will be reading De Profundis by Oscar Wilde. Anyone is welcome to join.

[Annette]

I would like to join you as well. Thanks!

[Sara, New School Classics]

Now that it has been pushed out to October, I will try to join as well.

[Cynda]

Look forward to it Annette and Sara :-)

[Milena]

I also want to buddy read De Profundis.
Please Cynda, count me in :-))

[Cynda]

Yes. Counted in :-)

[Piyangie]

I'd like to join in too. Its been a while since I read it.

[Sue]

Great! We are getting a good size group for this one

[Kathleen]

I'm really looking forward to reading this with you all!

[Cynda]

Yea Piyangie, Sue, and Kathleen :-)

[Milena]

I am starting the book today. Maybe I will pop in in October to share my thoughts. It should be nice and confusing with two Milenas.

[Milena]

Hello namesake, I'm happy that you decided to join the buddy read! I'm looking forward to it.
Two Milenas, nice and confusing: you chose the right words :-P

[Cynda]

Good. More the Merrier. If the two Milenas will decide between themselves how they want to be referred to for the discussion of De Profundis, we will refer to each in their chosen way. More Merriment and Less Confusion.

[Annette]

I am wondering what version/publisher folks are going to be reading?

[Cynda]

Hi Annette. I will be reading from 2 sources.
I will read as best I can from the digitized handwritten original . (I forget how to read handwriting. Who would've thought. . . .)
I will book read from basic Modern Library edition.

[Annette]

Oh, the handwritten one is wonderful. I am sure that it will be slow going. I will use it along with my library’s ePub version. The handwritten one will be a comfort because I don’t know if the ePub version is complete.

[Cynda]

Good. I will not be alone. Thanks Annette.

[Annette]

And I thank you, Cynda, for the link!

[Cynda]

I have the book I will be reading here, the Modern Library
.

I cracked the book open only to make myself close it. I am getting excited to read. Curious: Is everyone getting close to settling on an edition?

[Kathleen]

I have this one: "DE PROFUNDIS: being the first complete and accurate version of 'Epistola: in Carcere et Vinculis' the last prose work in English of OSCAR WILDE." It's published by The Philosophical Library in 1951, and there's an introduction by Vyvyan Holland. I can't find it anywhere on Goodreads (but see it online on Amazon and Abe Books). It was the copy my library had. :-)

I'm very excited about reading this too. That handwritten version is so cool!

[Cynda]

Sounds great Kathleen.

[Nidhi]

Hi Buddies

I am in , got the copy on iBooks. I will start right away to make up for lost time on 2 weeks long vacation.

Happy Reading 😃

[Cynda]

Happy Reading Nidhi :-)

[Cynda]

Anyone reading yet? I will be back later today, maybe tonight to post a comment or two. See you all here soon.

[Piyangie]

I wanted to start yesterday but unfortunately I got a bad migrain attack so have to postpone the reading for few days till I can read. I could always do audio (which I do when under such attack) but this one I prefer to read.

[Cynda]

We will be here Piyangie when you are able to participate. This is a second read for me, so I will be reading more carefully--slowly and thoughtfully.

[Annette]

I’ll be starting this weekend. I’m looking forward to it!

[Cynda]

I am looking forward to what you all as you get a chance.
I am starting with some pre-reading, some background. When I googled "De Profundis," a new understanding loaded up on Wikipedia:
1. Sometimes Psalm 130--which you can see here-- is called the De Profundis Prayer.
2. Other writers have written De Profundis pieces. I looked at poetry of Lord Alfred Tennyson and poetry of Cristina Rosetti . While there is a longer list, including a hispanic writer on the list of those who have written a de profundis piece, I stuck with writers of the Aethestic Movement. Thought this info might help to make this De Profundis we are reading together connected to something else.

[Cynda]

Seems I reading not from the basic Modern Library but Modern Library Classics. This edition De Profundishas a Reading Group Guide. Here are some questions to possibly consider as we read.

1. [In the Preface] Richard Ellmann suggests that De Profundis is a love letter, above all else. Does De Profundis follow the conventional form of a love letter? In what specific ways does De Profundis read like a love letter? In what ways does it differ? What makes it romantic?

2. Examine the letter's structure and define its different parts. Do Wilde's style and tone remain consistent throughout?

3. In De Profundis, Wilde recognizes numerous ironies regarding the circumstances of his imprisonment, most notably that he himself is imprisoned after suing Queensbury for slander. What other ironies (or paradoxes) does Wilde point out? What role does irony play in the letter? Why might Wilde choose to speak in these terms?

4. Do you think Wilde is a reliable narrator? How might his memories of Boise be influenced by his imprisonment? Do you find his criticism of Boise fair? Why or why not?

5. Throughout De Profundis, Wilde compares Alfred Douglas to numerous literary figures, from the lion's whelp in Agammenon to Hamlet's Rosencrantz and Guilderstern. What, if anything, do these figures have in common? How are they different? Compare the different contexts in which Wilde alludes to these figures?

6. What sort of freedom awaits Wilde upon his release? How does he aim to live?

7. Dante' Inferno is one of the texts to which Wilde frequently alludes to in De Profundis. Examine the different contexts in which he quotes from Inferno. What similarities, if any, can you find? Why do you think Wilde quotes from Dante so often?

8. Discuss Wilde's invocation of Christ as both a literary and historical figure. What quality of Christ does Wilde most admire? Why does Wilde call Christ the first individual in history? In what ways is Christ like an artist, according to Wilde? Richard Ellmann refers to this section as the letter's climax. Would you agree? Why ir why not?

9. After providing a withering critique of Alfred Douglas' behavior, Wilde turns his criticism on himself, claiming, "I must say to myself that neither you nor your father, multiplied a thousand times over, coukd have ruined a man like me: I ruined myself: and that nobody, great or small, can be ruined except by his own hand." Examine the reasons he gives for writing this. Do you agree with his claim?

10. Toward the end of the letter, Wilde writes, "A man whose desire is to be something separate from himself, to be a Member of Parliament, or a successful grocer, or a prominent solitictor, or a judge, or something equally tedious, invariably succeeds in being what he wants to be. That is his punishment. Those who want a mask have to wear it. What is the price Wilde has paid for this knowledge? Is this something he could have understood in his youth? Why or why not?

[Cynda]

The term "psychic vampire" came into popular use in the 1960s. Yet it would seem to apply here.

I am seeing Wilde taking an inventory of the relationship, not just his part or Lord Alfred's part, but something in between. That is what I am seeing early on. I continue ro read.

[Cynda]

I am reminded of Sense and Sensibility by Jane Austen. That book described two sisters, one full of sense and the other full of sensibility. I am seeing Wilde as being sensical and Lord Alfred as being sensible.

[Annette]

I am reading the handwritten version. It is quite legible and succinct so far. And I keep thinking how alone he was and how much time he had to compose this.

[Cynda]

I am glad you are reading Annette.
I found that Wilde regrets many things and may regret most his estrangement from his son, his great love. The biopic Wilde (1997) depicted Wilde making up stories, such as The Happy Prince for his sons.

[lethe]

I'm a little late, but I will try to join in as well.

[Cynda]

I am still following this duscussion, so Lethe please jump in as you can. Anyone else too.

[Cynda]

Here is my review.

[Piyangie]

I started reading. This second time I'm reading the Dover Thrift edition and I think this is the complete letter written by Wild to Lord Alfred Douglas. The earlier edition that I read is I believe what was originally published. This complete letter sheds light on the stormy relationship between Wild and Lord Alfred before he was imprisoned.

[Sue]

I am about 2/3 of the way in now and I'm loving this.

[Sue]

I finished and loved this. I think anyone who has had great sorrow or grief can relate to this. I was surprised that he called himself an agnostic because he seemed to have a pretty good grasp of Christianity.

[Kathleen]

I finished too, and am still processing my thoughts. I read the first half and was just worn out from the oppressiveness of it and had to put it down for a bit. In the second half, he blew me away, particularly with his take on Christian love and forgiveness.

From the questions Cynda posted above, one I'm really interested in hearing people's thoughts on is number 4:
Do you think Wilde is a reliable narrator?

When I was reading his scathing take on how everything that happened to him was caused by Bosie--Bosie's lack of character, or as Wilde puts it, his lack of imagination--I found it completely believable and infuriating. What was harder to believe was that Wilde said his "own grief and bitterness was forgotten." It's not that I don't believe he could have that purged from him--the combination of suffering and belief in forgiveness could surely accomplish that. But there seemed to be something still there. I wasn't sure what was there though, and it niggled at me throughout my reading. When I read at the end, Wilde's plans of meeting Bosie again, I was shocked. But then I thought maybe he did work through all of this and get back to … well, to love. What do you all think?

[Cynda]

My way of answering the question: Do you think Wilde is a reliable narrator?

Self-reflection always poses challenges. As far as inventories I have written/read, this is the best one, the most thorough and honest. Anytime I momentarily wondered at the truth of what Wilde wrote, I always came away giving him the benefit of the doubt. The reason why? We have always have limited perceptions, understandings, awarenesses, abilities. So Yes I do think that there is inherently an imperfection in this inventory, that he has a hint of unreliability inherent in his humanity. Yet sometimes a detail is not important to the overall benefit of the inventory. Wilde has put much thought into the inventory and done both honest and literary-quality work. Well Done.

I think for me the question morphs: Could have Wilde done any better? I am pondering on this.

[Sue]

I read a scientific article about how everyone's memories can't be trusted because we continually reshape them based on things that happen later in our lives. The article disturbed me at first, but then I found it freeing thinking of how I could choose to remember things in a more positive light.

Because of that article (and others I've read that back that up), I say no, he's not a reliable narrator because none of us are.

I agree that there is still something there in terms of grief Kathleen. This story had made me think once again about what forgiveness really is. I think of myself as forgiving because I don't keep hatred in my heart and I always try to see the other person's perspective. I don't wish anyone harm either, but I can't say that I don't hold on to some bitterness and distrust.

It's like that saying that you can forgive but not forget. You can no longer have the same degree of trust you once had in a person, even if you reconcile and love them again. I don't think he meant "forgotten" literally, but more that he has put greif and bitterness behind him, as opposed to letting it simmer in the present.

[Kathleen]

I completely agree with your answers, Cynda and Sue. I think what you say about grief is spot on, Sue. Of course his grief was still palpable--how could it not be?

As I said, by the end, I was convinced that his transcendent experience was real. I think we see attitudes that sometimes seem miraculous to us in people who go through great sorrows.

To your question, Cynda, "Could Wilde have done any better?" On reflection, I don't see how. This is really a beautiful work of art and delivers a profound philosophy. So, so glad I read it. Thanks all!!

[Cynda]

Glad you enjoyed reading De Profundis Kathleen. Thankings for sounding in. I have pondered. Now I think that Wilde did the best him could because the inventory was also a love letter. What a powerhouse this writing is. Or rather a love letter first and the inventory second. It is almost if not perfect writing.

[Cynda]

Sue, could it be that this article is one you read?

[Annette]

I was wondering if anyone has read any of Douglas’ surviving letters to Wilde? Reviews of a couple of biographies of Douglas refer to their existence.

[Sue]

Cynda wrote: "Sue, could it be that this article is one you read?"

No that wasn't it, but that one was very interesting. It's a similar concept but a little different focus with it being more on self reflection. The article you post is more philosophical (and I agree with the philosophy).

I can't find the one I read but have read many others that were similar. They were all based on how new events change our perception of old ones and also how memories can be planted by suggestion. It was based on scientific study. This one seems to hit on many of the same points https://science.howstuffworks.com/lif...

[Cynda]

That howstuffworks article is detailed and accessible. Thanks for sharing Sue. Somethings to think about and use.

[lethe]

I finally finished De Profundis today. Lately, whenever I had time to read, I found myself doing other things instead, which is never a good sign.

I'm afraid I was very disappointed with it. I was expecting something beautiful, and while there were some beautiful passages and insights, I was taken aback by his seemingly endless criticisms of Alfred Douglas, laying the blame for everything squarely upon him.

I understand prison life must have been horrible to him, and Douglas may well have been a narcissist, but the whining about Bosie keeping him, a genius artist, from his work and the pettiness of recording f.e. to the pound exactly how much he had spent on Bosie, who was not suitably grateful, really turned me off.

Oscar was older, he should have been wiser. But when I read that after his release he went to live in Naples with Bosie, I thought he had learned nothing.

In hindsight, I wish I had just read the abridged version in The Annotated Oscar Wilde instead. That had more extensive notes, but cut out a lot of the ranting.

[Sue]

lethe wrote: "I finally finished De Profundis today. Lately, whenever I had time to read, I found myself doing other things instead, which is never a good sign.

I'm afraid I was very disappoint..."

I unknowingly read the originally published abridged version first and that's why I give it 5 stars. I went back and found the other full version once I found out there was one. I agree. I didn't like the endless criticisms of Alfred Douglas, even though they were warranted. It felt like none of my business. I think it would have been better not to publish the full version.