Why Pern is so Unrealistic

[Sic Transit Gloria]

You and your zombies...How about a nice 10.5 Apocalypse instead?

[drowningmermaid]

Sic Transit Gloria wrote: "You and your zombies...How about a nice 10.5 Apocalypse instead?"

The four evil unicorns of the apocalypse-- bring war, famine, plague and pestilence. And earthquake thread.

[Sic Transit Gloria]

How about:
Civil War
Dictator Takeover
Solar Flare
New Plague
Giant Meteor (that doesn't fall in the ocean)
Aliens
Global Firestorm

BTW, did you think that Todd was better or worse than Anne at writing the Pern novels?

[drowningmermaid]

Sic Transit Gloria wrote: "How about:
Civil War
Dictator Takeover
Solar Flare
New Plague
Giant Meteor (that doesn't fall in the ocean)
Aliens
Global Firestorm

BTW, did you think that Todd was better or worse than Anne at wr..."

Any and all! But I think evil zombie unicorns gives it a nice, rounded quality.

I have no opinion on Todd, since I haven't read anything by him. There is something deep inside me that has a great deal of difficulty accepting him as the legitimate heir to Pern. He may be quite good, he may be better than Anne, for all I know, but he is not Anne, and I lean toward the opinion that, well, there ought at least to have been some sort of writer's tourney that established him as more than a milksop trailing on mother's skirts.

He may be an excellent writer, but this way he has no way of ever proving it.

[John (Taloni)]

there ought at least to have been some sort of writer's tourney that established him as more than a milksop trailing on mother's skirts.


FWIW, Anne has said that Todd helped her work out the background of Pern when she was writing the books. In that sense he is the only real successor. That said, I'm not a particular fan of his work. How many times are we going to meet yet another woman who can hear all dragons? It cheapens Lessa's uniqueness. Todd hasn't Anne's visceral feel for Pern. But then, the story was more than completely told at Anne's death, so anything else is just an add-on anyway. Let Todd profit.

[Lucifer]

Drowningmermaid, you like the show sleepy hollow don't you?

[drowningmermaid]

John wrote: "there ought at least to have been some sort of writer's tourney that established him as more than a milksop trailing on mother's skirts.


FWIW, Anne has said that Todd helped her work out the bac..."


I don't begrudge Todd his profit, and it seems to be something he wants to do, so why not? But if someone else helped Tolkien write The Silmarillion, I still wouldn't think that makes that person the only possible successor to Middle Earth. For a while, someone else was writing in Orson Scott Card's "Ender" world-- but I wouldn't say that person is the only logical successor.

V.C. Andrew's "heir" was chosen from a pool of people who write trying to imitate her style. That seems more democratic (even if it doesn't entirely work.)

Ultimately, though, a writing style and a pattern of imagination is as unique as a fingerprint. Maybe I just have a problem with the whole concept that the series needs to continue ad infinitum. There's only one person who can carry out stories in a particular way, anyway.

[drowningmermaid]

Lucifer wrote: "Drowningmermaid, you like the show sleepy hollow don't you?"

'Fraid I haven't seen it. Saw the Tim Burton movie, though.

[John (Taloni)]

I love Sleepy Hollow. When Crane went on and on about how Paul Rever would never have said "The British are coming" because we were all British then, I couldn't stop laughing. Love the anachronisms.

[Lucifer]

Agreed. I restarted it because I kept missing episodes so I'm re watching and I'm on episode 7.

[Lucifer]

I have to watch that tims burton every year (shudder) I can even quote it.

[Scott]

drowningmermaid wrote: "I just have a problem with the whole concept that the series needs to continue ad infinitum."

I've never read Todd's books so I have no opinion on his writing, but I feel the same way about series in general. Honestly, I think this one should have stopped with Moreta.

[Serena]

Sic Transit Gloria wrote: "Here's what I think: the lack of war really impeded development. Let's face it, war (or the threat of) is probably the driving principle of this era. Remove war, and a lot of progress disappears."

I'm rather of the opposite mind - war doesn't advance anything technologically, war is a by product of communication between ideas/societies, namely the disagreements between it's religions and/or it's hierarchy's resources.

I think Japan is the most technologically advanced (holograms) and India (resources) beside the Americas.

[Sic Transit Gloria]

I'm rather of the opposite mind - war doesn't advance anything technologically, war is a by product of communication between ideas/societies, namely the disagreements between it's religions and/or it's hierarchy's resources.
I think Japan is the most technologically advanced (holograms) and India (resources) beside the Americas.
You just stated three completely different things. First of all, war does definitely advance technology. The airplane, orbital satellites and computers all were advanced quickly because of their potential in war.

Second of all, war can be for other reasons beyond what you stated (although religion and greed are certainly two common reasons). A grudge is often a reason to go to war. Politics is another oft cited reason.

Third, you have to credit South Korea somewhere on that list, one of the most paranoid countries of all time.

[Serena]

Sic Transit Gloria wrote: You just stated three completely different things. First of all, war does definitely advance technology. The airplane, orbital satellites and computers all were advanced quickly because of their potential in war.

Second of all, war can be for other reasons beyond what you stated (although religion and greed are certainly two common reasons). A grudge is often a reason to go to war. Politics is another oft cited reason.

Third, you have to credit South Korea somewhere on that list, one of the most paranoid countries of all time. "

Yes, nations apply technology in war - when it becomes/is deemed useful. I am not listing why wars start, although I would say politics/ a grudge is a 'disagreement between hierarchy/religion'.

The inventions/innovations largely occur prior to war- or after, war may serve to popularize/mass produce certain technologies, or gain resources.

However, nations such as Japan and India, largely uninvolved in modern wars thus far have had less conflict and more mass production of modern technology (holograms, software, robotics, computer, smart phones).

I am not out to create a list of creditably technologically advanced countries/their paranoia.

I am simply saying that the making of technology/inventions does not now only occur because war introduces and uses it (technology occurs because communication is made between/trade of ideas/resources introduced between societies).

This is different for technology such as defensive or offensive or survival devices geared to go to war.

[Sic Transit Gloria]

I will accept this: war is not the only foster of technology. But it is at least a principle driver of it, especially during the era of Pern (medieval). It's not like ordinary citizens have the time or money to experiment with devices that may or may not work. Only the ruling class have such abilities, and they would not want them to be useless. And seeing how important war is, they would be much more willing to throw money at it then something of negligible value. Without the pressure of war, would technology have advanced as quickly? I believe not.

[Serena]

In the case of Pern, the fact that the original colonists purposely sought out a world where there were limited resources so that Earth wouldn't be interested in it/them.

The limited resources served the purpose in the books of getting away from war and preventing the colonist's descendents of going to war in any big way (galactic /world conquering societies).

They also spoke only one language in common - and that was to be the only one. It's easy to get confused between two languages - between three, even more so. But one world wide language.

It's not quite been studied or considered how widely a idea of a thing changes via language. Language makes us think in different ways to try to grasp a meaning that we might not have considered before. Things that sound alike aren't alike at all.

That aside, there is only one 'ruling class' on Pern - it isn't the Lord and Ladies of a Holding. They pay 'taxes' to the Weyr (the Weyr can not grow food and are occupied with dragons/Thread, they are the protectors of the Holding).

The Weyr were fighting a war of sorts against Thread (2500 years of one, on and off). That isn't fighting against people - but it is a war against nature, like global warming or earthquakes or forest fires or landslides or flooding or asteroids. We usually still lose in those.

They were also trying to colonize the less favorable northern continent of a new planet, and the flora/fauna weren't really explored enough to my liking.

[Peter]

Doc wrote: "John wrote: "The dragons made it Fantasy for me. I wouldn't hold McCaffrey to the same standard I would, say, Niven, on scientific realism, or Alastair Reynolds with Revelation Space. When Niven wr..."

Alan Nourse?

[Peter]

drowningmermaid wrote: "Sic Transit Gloria wrote: "[spoilers removed]

So here's a question for you: in 5000 years, there were almost no technological improvements on their own. Why?
(Obviously, the first 500 years or so ..."

'I thought the explanation there was that the colonists had deliberately chosen a planet with very little iron ore, and therefore no steel, etc. Also basically no trees so no cutsie-downsie evah.'

We must have read different versions. The ones I read had the colonisation as a one-way journey, choices limited to ONE. Of course an unanticipated problem would mean survival would trump retention of knowledge

[drowningmermaid]

Peter wrote: "We must have read different versions. The ones I read had the colonisation as a one-way journey, choices limited to ONE. Of course an unanticipated problem would mean survival would trump retention of knowledge."

"Pern" is an acronym given by "planet assessors" (apparently, there are just scads of habitable planets out there, like in Star Trek). It stands for: "Parallel Earth, Resources Negligible" (i.e., insufficient to support interstellar commercial investment).

It was initially colonized by shell-shocked ex-military folks, who chose the planet specifically because it was the armpit of the galaxy and no one else would ever want it in the history of ever. They came with the purpose of creating a pre-industrial society.

I'm not sure where you read what you read, but what I read is in a lot of the "prologues." You could also check wiki.

The unanticipated problem of Thread-- which is sometimes not a problem for centuries at a time-- should not entirely preclude all technological development or all knowledge retention, especially in a literate society.

I think Anne fudged a bit there in creating her fantasy-esque dragon world. But, you're right in that the first Threadfall was supposed to have severed the last ties to the larger universe.

Still, this is where religion or at least tradition would have come in to play, if Pern were a real place. If any of the settlers were, say, Jewish, they would find a way to celebrate Shabbat or Rosh Hashanah or something, and thereby keep at least some version of the story of their origins alive. I don't see how the entire planet could collectively have "forgotten," even in a mad scramble to stay alive.

BUT I haven't read Dragonsdawn, maybe that explains it.

[Linda]

I just look at it as that is the way Anne wrote it. She wrote it without religion, maybe there is HOPE after all!

[Renee E]

Maybe she was listening to John Lennon's "Imagine" when she was setting up the premises for Pern. ;-)

[Sic Transit Gloria]

Maybe she wasn't a skilled enough author to flesh out her characters through any sort of belief.

[Serena]

Sic Transit Gloria wrote: "Maybe she wasn't a skilled enough author to flesh out her characters through any sort of belief."

I haven't read them but Anne wrote Black Horses for the King and a short story to answer what happens when a dragonrider dies in “Beyond Between.” It's in Legends II.

Both I've heard had religious themes to them. I recall Acorna: The Unicorn Girl (I remember the main character being a healer and practically worshiped- although I haven't read the whole series and that was over twelve years ago) and Powers That Be had quite a lot of what I think of as spirituality to it.

[Peter]

drowningmermaid wrote: "Peter wrote: "We must have read different versions. The ones I read had the colonisation as a one-way journey, choices limited to ONE. Of course an unanticipated problem would mean survival would t..."

BUT I haven't read Dragonsdawn, maybe that explains it.

Maybe you should. It helps to have valid information when commenting

[John (Taloni)]

Sic Transit Gloria wrote: "Maybe she wasn't a skilled enough author to flesh out her characters through any sort of belief."

Anne McCaffrey unskilled? Have you *read* the books?

[drowningmermaid]

Well, NPR will never hail her as a literary genius, but her works are pretty perfect for the niche they serve.

I don't think the characters' (and world's) assiduous avoidance of all things spiritual is an oversight, but she has the good sense not to make it an outright moral, either.

The lack of religion does, in some ways, show her strengths as a writer. Yes, it's a conspicuous absence. But it's an absence that only becomes really conspicuous after reading a couple of the books-- and then you wonder where all the bad stuff went, and why no one idealizes some leader or other.

Weaker writing tends to be either didactic, or bash you in the face repeatedly with The Thing We Are Not Talking About Because the Author Hasn't Thought Through the Holes (Wither comes to mind). I thought McCaffrey avoided that, for the most part.

[John (Taloni)]

Star Trek didn't explicitly include religion either. But when they did the Rome episode that included references to the "sun," later understood as the "son" (of God) everyone knew what Uhura was talking about.

[Scott]

I think it just comes down to what one thinks they need in real life. I don't expect religion to come up in any given novel, especially a futuristic one. It's just not necessary to me, so I can easily accept a world without it.

[drowningmermaid]

Scott wrote: "I think it just comes down to what one thinks they need in real life. I don't expect religion to come up in any given novel, especially a futuristic one. It's just not necessary to me, so I can e..."

I'm pretty sure that's the real reason there's no religion. McCaffrey herself was probably areligious. Plenty of people are like that, either by personal preference or genetic quirk, or both.

[Pascal]

It took me a moment to answer because it is difficult to express a complex idea in a foreign language.

Beforehand I'm an atheist with atheist parent, married to an atheist wife with atheist parents (to be sure the referential are in place)
And I mean atheist and not agnostic (atheist does not believe the agnostic is not sure if god exist or not)

Contrary to idea Sic Transit Gloria has on us, atheists do not define themselves against religion, they simply do not have faith and do not believe in the existence of a higher entity.

I never talk about my non-belief. To be exact I never think about god.
It's like someone who doesn’t like nor drink beer.
Did he speaks of it? No.
Does he yearn for a beer? No.
And unless you ask, you will have no reason to know.

So why a civilization founded by atheists would have a religion?
They have no reason to speak about religion.
They have no reason to educate their children with religious concepts.
So unless you think that religion is a natural need I do not see why it would appear on a world like PERN.

But in this case, I am sorry to say, it is proselytism.

Sic Transit Gloria implies that he is right in his belief and that I am wrong in my unbelief
I would like to ask him what give him the right to judge the millions (or billion) atheists in the world.

I do not judge the believers because it is their right, and I think they should also respect my unbelief.

Therefore implying that an author who does not put religion in a world that has no reason to have one is a bad writer leaves me a taste of ashes in the mouth

Thanks to excuse my English

Pascal

[Scott]

Well-said, Pascal.

[drowningmermaid]

I think Pascal has a good point, in that, if the world were built by a-religious people, then the genetic component of religiousity would be absent, as would the history of religious traditions.

I don't know that that explains the lack of war, corruption, famine, mental illness, and addiction though. I still think that all these things and religion, too, are absent simply because McCaffrey never felt that they were important to the story she wanted to tell. She wanted to create an ideal place (except for Thread) and, in that, she did really well.

As to whether she's "good" or "not so good," she herself never considered her writing all that great, but her contribution to the genre went beyond her own writing in that she fostered the art of many of the next generation of female science fiction and fantasy writers.

[Sic Transit Gloria]

Pascal, I never meant to judge you as an atheist. Some of my best friends (both in real life and on the internet) are atheists.

I would also like to raise a point. Somewhere between humans coming into existence and now, humans went from no religion to some religion. Couldn't PERN do the same?

[Renee E]

Sic Transit Gloria wrote: "I would also like to raise a point. Somewhere between humans coming into existence and now, humans went from no religion to some religion. Couldn't PERN do the same?"

I would imagine that to find the answer to that you'll have to catch up with Anne in the afterlife. Her world, her rules. ;-)

[John (Taloni)]

Surely Todd could write a book in which yet another person can hear all dragons...and the dead!

[Renee E]

Or one of the dragons takes its mortally wounded rider Between to escape death.

[drowningmermaid]

John wrote: "Surely Todd could write a book in which yet another person can hear all dragons...and the dead!"

Todd and Orson Scott Card could team up in: "Speaker for the Dead Dragons"!

All the people through all the ages who disappeared 'between' are alive and well!

[Pascal]

Sic Transit Gloria wrote: "Pascal, I never meant to judge you as an atheist. Some of my best friends (both in real life and on the internet) are atheists.

I would also like to raise a point. Somewhere between humans coming ..."

Most of the religion were establish before the middle age.
At that time people were afraid of a lot of things they were not able to understand
So imagine the gods is "logical"
Also many religions were developed to increase the power of their leader (This is no longer the case in the majority)

But it's very different for PERN
Migrants had a high level of knowledge
They established a stable and important hierarchical structure
I don't think they need to explain anything, and if they needed a regulative antity, they have it in the presence of dragon knights

And to freely paraphrase john
Imagine there's no heaven,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
And no religion too.

A precision,
I do not think you're a zealot.
I just think you did not read your comments putting yourself in my place

Some authors (Orson Scott Card, Paulo Coelho ...), requires an effort on my part because their underlying mysticisme is always borderline with my beliefs. But this does not prevents me from loving some of their works.
I think it's important to be open-minded enough to appreciate a story despite the disagreement you may have with the author.

Anne is one of the authors who made ​​me discover the beautiful English language.
But let's be frank, PERN is not the best she does, but I read it between 18 and 20 (Over 30 years now!) And I have a certain affection for this work.

To be complete another paraphrase of Jacques
Dites si c'était vrai
S'il était né vraiment à Bethléem dans une étable
Dites si c'était vrai
Si les rois Mages étaient vraiment venus de loin de fort loin
Pour lui porter l'or la myrrhe l'encens
Dites si c'était vrai
...
Alors ce serait tellement beau

Error in translation are mine
Tell me, If it was true
If he was really born in Bethlehem in a barn
Tell me, If it was true
If the Magi were really came from afar, very afar
To bring him gold, myrrh and incense
Tell me, If it was true
...
So it would be so beautiful

Has always, excuse my English

Pascal

[Renee E]

You wrote that beautifully and concisely, Pascal.

[Stephanie]

You know...who cares if Pern is unrealistic and all that...it is fun and entertaining to read. The books are fantasy and when I like to read fantasy, it takes me into another world when it lets my imagination run wild. I love the series, no matter if it was Anne Maccaffrey or her son, Todd. I have read this series ever since I discovered them over 20 years ago and if Todd ever deems to write more, then I will continue to read them. I enjoyed reading these books and will continue doing so as long as they are around.

[Valerie]

There were actually those who held something like traditional religious beliefs - like the folks Menolly's family came from. I do find it interesting that many seem to find a need for a religious factor in the stories - as if the lack of them made the novels less pertinent.
The people who colonized Pern were many years in the future, coming out of a long-standing war, and most were scientists. There are quite a few people who believe that clinging to the idea of an all-knowing deity is a bit out-dated now. (Many religions preach about love and acceptance, and yet there have been an astonishing number of wars waged in the name of religion.) By the time of the Pern novels, it could very well be that they saw little need to continue such a destructive path. History is full of such examples.
(I'd also point out that the 'origin' stories of Pern explain that there may have been religious-based groups, who hared off to create their own societies, but were unprepared for the incursion of Thread.)
Also, as someone else pointed out - they first had to survive an alien world and then a common enemy. Both would have largely united the survivors.

[Sic Transit Gloria]

You raise some good points, Pascal. And although I disagree on a few minor points (there is plenty left unexplained; there's still things to "kill and die for") I'm not going to argue farther.

And at this point, I really don't want Todd to write another book. Or rather, I don't want to read another book by Todd. I've had enough of the McCafferys for a few years.

[Papaphilly]

Sic Transit Gloria wrote: "It's not the genetically modified fire-lizards. It's not the parasitic "Thread" that falls from the sky to devour everything. It's not actually any of the science at all. It's how the people act. O..."

You mean other than the fact there are dragons that fly around?

[Sic Transit Gloria]

Papaphilly wrote:You mean other than the fact there are dragons that fly around?

Actually, it's not terribly hard to imagine how a dragon might work. (At least, the first ones, which were horse size. I have no idea how Ramoth, a 747 size dragon, could do anything.) After all, birds do it, and some incredibly large birds at that. It wouldn't take much more scaling to bring them to ride-able size.

[Papaphilly]

Sic Transit Gloria wrote: "Papaphilly wrote:You mean other than the fact there are dragons that fly around?

Actually, it's not terribly hard to imagine how a dragon might work. (At least, the first ones, which were horse si..."

I was pointing out there was an elephant in the room. You make points on why Pern wouldn't work and I point out the most obvious reason, there are no dragons, they are mythical creatures.

[Sic Transit Gloria]

Papaphilly wrote: I was pointing out there was an elephant in the room. You make points on why Pern wouldn't work and I point out the most obvious reason, there are no dragons, they are mythical creatures.

Ah, but in the beginning of the series (chronologically) there were no dragons either! They had to create them using advanced genetics. I see it as doable. If people could travel faster than light and have true AI, they could probably genetically engineer dragons.

[Papaphilly]

Sic Transit Gloria wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: I was pointing out there was an elephant in the room. You make points on why Pern wouldn't work and I point out the most obvious reason, there are no dragons, they are mythical cr..."

It seems to me using your logic, if people can travel faster than light and have true AI, then they can get rid of war and religion. When you engineer your dragons, let me know and I will buy one along with the bridge I need.

[Renee E]

Papaphilly wrote: "...When you engineer your dragons, let me know and I will buy one along with the bridge I need. "

I've described living with a Fila as the closest you can get to being a Dragonrider without going to Pern. :D

An APBT is a close second.

[Papaphilly]

I have two of those APTB. I am very glad they don't fly or breath fire. :)