Dragonflight
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Why Pern is so Unrealistic
message 51:
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Scott
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rated it 5 stars
Sep 23, 2014 06:33PM
Was Danielle being sarcastic as well?
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I think that this misses the point of Pern.Think of it this way: Pern is very much like Original Series Starfleet... with dragons.
It's a happy place. It's a melodramatic place. It is a profoundly, single-mindedly, relentlessly unrealistic place. The stories of Pern have all the realism of the average romance novel. Romance novels are not accurate portrayals of human relationships. They are accurate portrayals of wistful dreams of idealized perfection.
People who love Pern love a pleasant fiction.
So try not to dwell on the soporific portrayals of human nature. Pern stories are fairy tales about wish fulfillment, not intricate plots filled with gritty realism.
At very least, I don't think you should look at the lack of religion and politics as being LESS valid than the lack of science. I feel it is perfectly reasonable for a person to get hung up questions like:
What is the evolutionary significance of a creature that has developed the ability to teleport and time travel?
How many spores are capable of inter-planetary travel... but also drown upon touching water?
Personally, I've always felt that Pern needs zombies. A good zombie apocalypse would really spice up the series.
^I like this person.By the way, has anyone else felt that the quality of the series really dropped off around #4 or #5?
^Yep. Flight/Quest are top notch, Song/Singer good, Drums and White Dragon somewhat self-indulgent. All worth reading, though.As for zombies, I am tempted to mine the Burroughs vein with "Zombies of Pellucidar" and "A Zombie Princess of Mars."
Sic Transit Gloria wrote: "^I like this person.By the way, has anyone else felt that the quality of the series really dropped off around #4 or #5?"
I like you, too. ^^
I read the series out of order, so I can't really speak for when, exactly, the series started flagging. I read a lot of McCaffery when I was twelve, and I still pick up one of her books every few years. I can't say how much of my indifference to her plots comes from the books becoming inferior or myself becoming a more demanding reader.
I will say I was quite surprised by the disappointment that was "Moreta," especially after her story got built up so much. If any book needed zombies, this was the one. I think a crossover between "Moreta" and "Twenty-Eight Days Later" would be win.
Tangentially, in talking about war/conspicuous lack therof I find myself reminded of The Left Hand of Darkness wherein the genderless aliens have long-standing blood feuds, but no actual "war," presumably as a result of their being both male and female. Is it just me, or are there not-so-many female writers who write fantasy war epics with complex, realistic politics, like, say G.R.R. Martin does?
Either way, I think any kind of realistic depiction of religion and politics would take away from the saccharine nature of the fantasy world she has chosen to create. The two-dimensional nature of Pern is both its selling point and its flaw.
John wrote: As for zombies, I am tempted to mine the Burroughs vein with "Zombies..."
Man, I hadn't even thought of Burroughs. But there are plenty of (copyright free) older pieces out there that could probably use some zombies.
Gulliver should definitely have come across a land of zombies in his travels. Scrooge wouldn't have needed three ghostly visitors if Marley had just shown him more zombies. Huck Finn could ride the river with escaped zombie Jim. And, as long as I'm continuing with the metaphor... Kirk, Spock and McCoy would be a pretty rad zombie-fighting team.
drowningmermaid wrote: " Is it just me, or are there not-so-many female writers who write fantasy war epics with complex, realistic politics, like, say G.R.R. Martin does?"Have you tried Mary Gentle?
For me, the Pern series started going downhill after Moreta, which was the last one I really liked. Or I just got older and my tastes were changing (the next one I read was after high school)...hard to say.
I haven't! She wasn't even on my radar...
drowningmermaid wrote: "...Kirk, Spock and McCoy would be a pretty rad zombie-fighting team. "Wait.
Kirk wasn't a zombie?
drowningmermaid wrote: "I haven't! She wasn't even on my radar..."Try Rats and Gargoyles or Ash: A Secret History.
Renee wrote: "drowningmermaid wrote: "...Kirk, Spock and McCoy would be a pretty rad zombie-fighting team. "Wait.
Kirk wasn't a zombie?"
I thought he was supposed to be a sex droid. The hair wasn't very realistic, though.
Scott wrote: "drowningmermaid wrote: "I haven't! She wasn't even on my radar..."Try Rats and Gargoyles or Ash: A Secret History."
I'll give them a look!
So I've been thinking about it and then I realized: Anne McCaffery can't help but construct a utopian society. Think about it: Aside from the few small problems encountered in all her books, the government and society was almost always sound. Is this true in all her books?(I've read the Pern series, Pegasus series, and Landing series.)
Sic Transit Gloria wrote: "It's not the genetically modified fire-lizards. It's not the parasitic "Thread" that falls from the sky to devour everything. It's not actually any of the science at all. It's how the people act. O..."Nah, atheism is like ANTI-religion: it needs a religion to be denying. The closest Pernese seem to get to religion though is some mild ancestor worship.
As I mentioned, pretty much all of Frank Herbert's works involved religion. Did that make it better? Roger Zelazny used religion heavily in a lot of his work, and exclusively in his best stuff.I must admit I was underwhelmed by 'Dragonsdawn' - it introduced a lot of inconsistencies that can only be explained by the $ she would have got.
Rachel wrote: "Nah, atheism is like ANTI-religion: it needs a religion to be denying. The closest Pernese seem to get to religion though is some mild ancestor worship."No, that would be anti-theist (which is what Christopher Hitchens considered himself.) Atheist simply means without gods.
As to the zombie bit, why, Pern is ripe for a zombie invasion. "Night of the Living Thread" can tell the story of how Threadscored people start dying quickly - only to rise again! It will be Dragonriders versus Zombie Dragonriders. One fights Thread, the other fights FOR Thread!
Please don't let Todd hear about this...
Something along the lines of this one? Pride and Prejudice and Zombies Never a bad idea to throw zombies into the mix!drowningmermaid wrote: "I think that this misses the point of Pern.
Think of it this way: Pern is very much like Original Series Starfleet... with dragons.
It's a happy place. It's a melodramatic place. It is a profou..."
It's fantasy. Why does it have to be realistic? Just the idea of dragons is not very realistic...
While we're talking about potential plots, let's make it so that the aliens (the ones fighting the war before the colonists arrive) turn up on Pern, and the dragons must burn them away!
Sic Transit Gloria wrote: "While we're talking about potential plots, let's make it so that the aliens (the ones fighting the war before the colonists arrive) turn up on Pern, and the dragons must burn them away!"I want the Talents to show up! It was clearly hinted at that they were really in the same universe.
Scott wrote: "Please don't let Todd hear about this..."Todd McCaffery? Oh, there should be an internet petition requesting a zombie Pern novel.
drowningmermaid wrote: "I want the Talents to show up! It was clearly hinted at that they were really in the same universe."Yeah, they sort of hinted that some Talents had descendants in the Pernese, but a re-contact novel would be awesome.
Sic Transit Gloria wrote: "drowningmermaid wrote: "I want the Talents to show up! It was clearly hinted at that they were really in the same universe."Yeah, they sort of hinted that some Talents had descendants in the Perne..."
I think... and I'm not sure... that the implication is that the Talents are more near-term-ish, and the Pernese are way far out in a future by thousands upon thousands of evolution-free years.
But then, dragons are somehow not bounded by the constraints of time or place, so all it would take is a single mental image and voila!
...
They finally make it to the red planet and it turns out it is really Earth after a terrible cataclysm! People live underground and Talents live in a constant battle to throw the thread spaceward!
...
I rather hope not, really.
But whatever Did happen to all that talk in Dragonflight about actually going to fight thread ON the Red planet. Does that ever happen?
Been a while since I read the whole series but surely there had been war before the first book starts? Fax had taken over a lot of the land hadn't he?I also agree with Leslie that thread formed a common enemy to bring them together during times of threadfall.
As to religion, well like Danielle, I think the dragons became their religion in a way. Think of the hatching grounds with the seating around them where people could come to see the impressions. Church-like, no? The change of name of the people who are chosen by a dragon is in some ways like coming into a priesthood. They even received tithes from traders and farmers etc. And why wouldn't dragons become a form of religion? They were beautiful, powerful, magical, and they saved the people and their livelihoods right there in front of their eyes. Who needs an invisible dude when you have that?
In the end, I am one of the 'forget the realities and just enjoy the stories and relationships' people. Pern will always be one of my favorite places to visit. I'm sorry the OP didn't enjoy one of the books, but many of us do. I think The white Dragon was one of my faves, but also loved any with the Harpers figuring a lot in them.
John wrote: "The dragons made it Fantasy for me. I wouldn't hold McCaffrey to the same standard I would, say, Niven, on scientific realism, or Alastair Reynolds with Revelation Space. When Niven wrote Protector..."Not to mention going "between."
I am acutely jealous of the people who associate with dragonets in the Dragonsinger books. I would love to go through life harmonizing with by personal backup chorus.
Doc wrote: "I am acutely jealous of the people who associate with dragonets in the Dragonsinger books. I would love to go through life harmonizing with by personal backup chorus."Yeah, everything I say would sound so much cooler with a dragonet quartet in the background.
But whatever Did happen to all that talk in Dragonflight about actually going to fight thread ON the Red planet. Does that ever happen? I'm not sure how far you are in the series so...
(view spoiler)
Sic Transit Gloria wrote: "But whatever Did happen to all that talk in Dragonflight about actually going to fight thread ON the Red planet. Does that ever happen? I'm not sure how far you are in the series so...
Eventuall..."
Zombies!
(No worries about the spoilers. It's not like I give Pern my time because I am super concerned about the series' direction.)
Haven't read any of the Todd books.
(view spoiler)
Well, drowningmermaid, orbits DO decay, but the three ships had "plenty" of fuel left in them, so not only were they able to maintain geosynchronous orbit for five thousand years, but they were also able to create shields to protect themselves from Thread and managed to restart and run the oxygen and heating equipment after the dragonriders visited them. Of course, the two smaller ships had almost run out of fuel after all that time, so after the Red Planet mission, they threw those into the sun. Naturally.(I'm still confused as to why they did that.)
Sic Transit Gloria wrote: "Well, drowningmermaid, orbits DO decay, but the three ships had "plenty" of fuel left in them, so not only were they able to maintain geosynchronous orbit for five thousand years, but they were als..."(view spoiler)
T.L. wrote: "As to religion, well like Danielle, I think the dragons became their religion in a way. Think of the hatching grounds with the seating around them where people could come to see the impressions. Church-like, no?"Not any more than going to the zoo too see the new baby panda. You're reaching.
I dunno if TL is reaching. The dragons are the method by which Pern's civilization is preserved, so a hatching means somewhat more than "cute baby panda."
Sure, but that doesn't make it anything close to religion.
Dragons may have gained some pseudo-religious mystique to them on Pern, but there is absolutely nothing close to a religion.There are no dictates of any kind regarding sexuality, food, or dress-- big hallmarks of any religion. There are no central religious figures or religious teachers (no, historical ballads don't count, even if they serve a slightly similar function) or any attempts to explain life's unknowns. There's no "God" figure, or even Higher Power. On Pern, when you die you're just a dead SOB.
I wonder what AA meetings are like on Pern?
As a nature-based Pagan, I don't have any of those restrictions either, though I do set some for myself. Also not all religions have a central God figure. You might be equating "Religion" with Revealed or Organised religions. That's not how we all experience our spirituality. It's just the dominant Western Paradigm at this time. No reason why it has to be Pern's.
drowningmermaid wrote: "I wonder what AA meetings are like on Pern?"You mean KA. :)
T.L. wrote: "As a nature-based Pagan, I don't have any of those restrictions either, though I do set some for myself. Also not all religions have a central God figure. You might be equating "Religion" with Rev..."Well, sure but modern nature-based paganism borrows/re-interprets/revitalizes a lot of previous mythologies, none of which ever developed on Pern. And some of those who worshiped what are now considered myths were just as stringent as your average evangelical, when theirs was the reigning faith.
It's true, I was mainly referring to Western-style organized religion, but even things like Taoism and Confucianism appeal to something higher-- (it's more of a concept than a personality)-- to grant their moral codes some weight.
It would be interesting to know what an entire Planet of earth-based Pagans could do.
I think it would help to think of Dragonflight as more of a "science-fantasy" novel.In any case - correct me if I'm wrong - other important facets of human civilization such as epidemic diseases, foreign relations, crime, pollution, et cetera were similarly excluded, or at least not discussed in detail in the first few books.
Wait, it's been a long time since I read them, but wasn't there some sort of epidemic in "Moreta" and "Nerilka's Story?"
Renee wrote: "Wait, it's been a long time since I read them, but wasn't there some sort of epidemic in "Moreta" and "Nerilka's Story?""Yeah, there was a plague in that one (they really are more like one book.) Very AIDS-esque plague, only airborne. But doesn't kill you by itself, just totals the immune system.
Squirrels Are Awesome wrote: "In any case - correct me if I'm wrong - other important facets of human civilization such as epidemic diseases, foreign relations, crime, pollution, et cetera were similarly excluded, or at least not discussed in detail in the first few books."It was not an industrialized society, so pollution was probably not a major issue. Foreign relations--with whom?
Scott wrote: "Squirrels Are Awesome wrote: "In any case - correct me if I'm wrong - other important facets of human civilization such as epidemic diseases, foreign relations, crime, pollution, et cetera were sim..."Pollution was definitely an issue in pre-industrialized areas, just of a different type. Foreign relations-- well, in 5000 years, there really ought to have cropped up new languages, traditions, styles of dress, diets, etc based on the different regions/holds. This would lead to some measure of need for foreign diplomacy.
But, I think McCaffrey herself wasn't going for realism. She called her books "a blend of sci fi and romance" and... there aren't exactly a preponderance of romance novels wherein "historical" or "fantasy" means more than "pretty dresses."
(view spoiler)So here's a question for you: in 5000 years, there were almost no technological improvements on their own. Why?
(Obviously, the first 500 years or so doesn't count because they still had the colonists' technology and neither does the last 100 because they had colonists' technology.)
Well STG, because dragons. And Thread. Anyway, Pern was intended as a medieval society with a bit of superscience thrown in. It's as realistic as Gandalf getting tobacco from the New World.
Psh. Dragons don't solve all of Pern's problems. And Thread could actually be a motivator. And it's science fiction, so it's at least partially grounded in reality.
Sic Transit Gloria wrote: "[spoilers removed]So here's a question for you: in 5000 years, there were almost no technological improvements on their own. Why?
(Obviously, the first 500 years or so doesn't count because they ..."
I thought the explanation there was that the colonists had deliberately chosen a planet with very little iron ore, and therefore no steel, etc. Also basically no trees so no cutsie-downsie evah.
Now, if you subscribe to the "Guns Germs and Steel" philosophy of human development, then it would be pretty feasible to keep society from 'progress' by eliminating gunpowder and steel.
However, I think it would be much easier to keep people at a subsistence farmer/hunter-gatherer level of technology for godawful lengths of time, than to keep people at a medieval level of technology indefinitely.
Basically because the Dark Ages weren't really all that dark. There were enormous strides made in architecture, finance, and government-- you can't have that level of development going on without it leading to more development... of some kind.
Here's what I think: the lack of war really impeded development. Let's face it, war (or the threat of) is probably the driving principle of this era. Remove war, and a lot of progress disappears.
Sic Transit Gloria wrote: "Here's what I think: the lack of war really impeded development. Let's face it, war (or the threat of) is probably the driving principle of this era. Remove war, and a lot of progress disappears."If there can't be zombies, there should at least be evil unicorns that need fighting off.
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