Queen Maas' Assassins discussion
TOG #4: Queen of Shadows
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Queen of Shadows ~ Plot
message 951:
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Danielle
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Aug 19, 2015 05:03AM
I know, but it's a legit thing. Like what someone said up there in the thread, I read parts of the book. :'(
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Am I the only one thinking that no matter how badass and perfect and flawed Aelin is, she never says sorry. And there is only one person who could push forgiveness into her? Like for her to forgive and for her to say sorry?I just realized this...
What has she done that needs an apology? The only thing I might consider for that is blaming Chaol for Nehemia's death, and I remember she said she knows it's not his fault in CoM and apologized for the scar she gave him.
She has done plenty of things that she needs to apologize for and I think it's that arrogance that is making people mad at her. I hope she changed during the book
Not only to Chaol. I mean, for a normal person, one would say sorry for not being there to save people. To save her kingdom, her lover, her friend. She just... kind of keep it all inside? I don't know how to put it in words but she just keep every feeling inside.
Exactly, Danielle. And also she keeps blaming everyone for her problems, even people who have nothing to do with them. Idk, I hope she matures during the rest of the book
Danielle in HoF Aelin admitted to her guilt in not being there for her people and resolves to free them from king, which is what she's currently trying to do. As for the actual words, exactly who is she suppose to say them to? She hasn't even been back to her country since she was 8. Tbh I think actions count more than words.
I havent read any of the Spoilers, just the released QoS 1-3 chapters, but I can't help feeling that Chaol's keeping the 3 tower information from Aedion and Aelin will only come back to hurt him in the end.(I know Aedion kinda knows about the towers and their location but Chaol didnt tell him he basically confirmed it with Dorian). Chaols developing a history of keeping things from people and I wonder if thats going to be his character flaw...never trusting people enough with information that could save their lives. First Nehemia,Dorian, and Aelin with these towers...Just set aside all your hate messages defending your Chaol/Aelin angle and look at it from this perspective. I do admit I'm not a huge fan of Chaol. I think he's an upstanding guy with a boat load of loyalty & a little righteous-ness. I just think his charcter is very human unlike the majority of characters in this series. What do you think? will keeping the secret hurt him...or will it not matter because you think he'll tell Aelin inorder to get Dorian out using a Aelin's magical/inhuman militia.
Em wrote: "Exactly, Danielle. And also she keeps blaming everyone for her problems, even people who have nothing to do with them. Idk, I hope she matures during the rest of the book"I am so sad to agree with you, Em. I love Aelin but this is one my (and my friend's) problem with her :(( I know no one is perfect but she is flawed in more ways than this.
Liz, sometimes we need the words (I really don;t know how to explain this)... I appreciate her actions, yes, but as Celaena, she totally put her past all behind her (and I kind of hate Arobynn for this), until her bestfriend and a dead queen decided to push her so far. In HoF, the whole of Endovier and Calaculla was wiped out before she regained that fire of saving her kingdom, which she promised Nehemia. So yes, actions really do speak so loud.
But I think, what Celaena/Aelin lacks is making both. As a queen, she needs to do both things. She cannot just do actions and actions without words, without saying it to her kingdom, without consulting other people. She cannot say words without following it with certain actions. She needs to learn forgiveness most of all, she needs to ask forgiveness and forgive other people. She doesn't need to say it to the ground, or say it when no one could hear. QOS SPOILER (view spoiler)
Her arrogance became her mask and her weapon. She could still be a girl and a warrior at the same time with little arrogance, tbh.
AND IN A SLIGHTLY OFF-TOPIC. I don't want Chaol and Aelin to end like THG. With Katniss and Gale not forgiving others, but they're in a different circumstance that's why I'm only referring to the ending. They have this history behind them, like all the good times. But SOMEONE dying because of Gale isn't the same with Nehemia dying. Because that SOMEONE has no intention of dying, unlike Nehemia.
I'm so sorry for the long post.
Jess S wrote: "I havent read any of the Spoilers, just the released QoS 1-3 chapters, but I can't help feeling that Chaol's keeping the 3 tower information from Aedion and Aelin will only come back to hurt him in..."Hi Jess S! Chapters 1-5 is also now available, courtesy of Bloomsbury Kids! :D
And yes, that is a MAJOR Chaol flaw he needs to let go, or at the least lessen. (But seriously, in CoM, if the King of Adarlan would hold me back one day and tell me that no word should get out about the princess's safety, I'll really keep my mouth super shut. Not to mention all of his beloved people is under the King's roof and how easy it is for the King to punish them.)
haha long...you should see some of my posts. I disagree about her asking for forgiveness... I dont see why she would need to be apologizing. Her parents and her family died overnight and she was 'rescued' by a man who basically brain washed her into turning her back on her people and then she was enslaved the rest of her life! What would she say sorry for I'm sorry my family died and I became a slave?...How many eight year olds do you know that could defeat an army and recover and rule a kingdom on their own? The fact that she's now of age and is making the attempt at breaking the chains enslaving her kingdom is enough for me. And if she's now a Queen well she has to think of that. If she starts apologizing now people might take advantage of her, thinking its weakness instead of presenting herself as a formidable opponent in the struggle for her country. As for her and Choal I think they'll be ok in the end. If chaol survives i think he'll remain dorians Captain and Aelin will have her own kingdoms and they'll be at peace.
Okay, here's a more simple thing:1. I'm not saying an eight-year-old Aelin should free her kingdom.
2. She came of age at the age of 16, afaik. Dorian is around 17 (probably) in TAB, when she and Celaena danced. So yeah, she already came of age. But if Sam didn't die and they paid off EVERYTHING from Arobynn, I don't think they'll come back to Terrasen or Rifthold. EVER.
3. Most of her kingdom is enslaved or killed. In HoF, we learned that Endovier and Calculla was wiped out.
4. What does she needs to ask forgiveness for? Because one, her bestfriend needs to die before she has that fire starting in saving her kingdom. Because two, when she lost that fire, she needs 100,000 people dead in the mines to start it again.
5. She needs to let go of her guilt instead of keeping it all inside or whispering it or saying it in quiet rooms, why? Because that guilt will ate her the same way her 8-year-old-self's guilt ate the young Aelin away that made Arobynn easy to brainwash her.
You are free to disagree, but I know I'm not making my point very clearly. And it's long because it's a point that I've turned into a line instead. I've made far longer posts than that.
Also, I've read a handful of QoS parts to know answers to some of your questions... and that's also why it's hard my making my point without integrating anything I've read so far.
I see what you mean Danielle, but there are some things she shouldn't have to apologize for. Like Jess said being adopted by Arobynn wasn't her fault. She was a child. What she could and maybe should, apologize for not going back to her kingdom when she was old enough to understand what it meant, but again she's trying to make amend for that now.Endovier wasn't her fault, despite the facts it does make her feel even more guilt. I also think it wasn't what necessarily what made her accept herself. It was a push but I think she would have done the same thing regardless.
As for the words I just think they're a little redundant. Assuming she succeeds with everything she has set out to do in QoS, she's going to go to Terrasen and try to protect and lead her people which is all they want from her. From the little that was mentioned in HoF they all think she was kept safe in Wendlyn for the past 10 years and was being trained, there weren't any mentions of them blaming her. They're just glad she's back to save them.
Whether or not she actually says the words I believe Aelin will always feel guilty and she'll keep trying to protect her kingdom. She's a flawed character and I think that's what make her so interesting.
Also I'm pretty sure she actually did say the words to her parents and uncle either in her prayers or in the Valg visions.
I just disagree. I just believe she shouldn't have to apologize. She's flawed and she was never really free of arobynn so She never really got the chance to make that decision of becoming a Queen or making a separate life for herself. Who knows maybe in a after a few months of freedom the fact that her kingdom is still in tatters would have weighed on her and she might have come back. Hard to say we'll never know that answer.I also feel for that 8 year old princess who had no friends and was sheltered her whole life previous to her parents deaths. All that 8 year old knew was people whispering and running from her because they feared a power she couldn't quite handle. I'm not surprised Arobynn so easily brain washed her and that brain washing lasted through CoM (i think). You can see she would never really let herself consider that Arobynn betrayed her. In her eyes that was her mentor and father. It wasn't until Chaol started telling her about Wesley and Arobynn that she even begins to admit it to herself that she was betrayed.
And yes, I can see if people think she's a well bred young lady who was brought up in a fine house for the last 18 years, I can see them looking down on her for not stepping up to the plate sooner. But it's also not her fault nehiema sacrificed herself. That was despiration that doesn't mean it was right or that Aelin should apologize. Maybe she should have let her in on her activist strategy before having herself killed.
Anyway interesting discussion! Thats for sure! Aelin IS SO complex!
Jess, Liz, I totally I agree with both of you. Aelin has gone through so much in her life since she was 8 years old, but oh, she needs to apologize for everything? Okay. She has said SO many times how guilty she has felt during her whole life for not doing anything to help her people, for becoming an assassin, for not acting sooner. Literaly, her parents were murdered in her house and then her world went to hell in a matter of hours. She then had to become an assassin TO SURVIVE, for gods sake. Then her first love was murdered just because some idiot old man didn't want them together, and when she tried to avenge him she was trapped and sent to Endovier where she was tortured to no end and will always bear scars for. She went in a competition, willing to do anything because all she wanted was to be free and then this old ghost tells her that she has to save the world basically but nothing not how. Her best friend kills herself in the hopes she acts (BUT NOT BECAUSE AELIN FORCED HER TO DO SO) and her third love interest sends her away to force her to face the the reality that she had been avoiding all along. And when she does so, she lets all the demons of her past behind because she knows that no matter what she says, she will feel guitly for not helping her kingdom after all this years, but she also knows that she can give them their home back and she will fight and kill for it.
For those reasons and more, I completely disagree that she needs to apologize for anything in her life. Now that you guys mentioned it, yes she would only need to apologize to her people, but she hasn't even gone to Terrasen to do that or has not had the chance. And words would never really be anything relevant, actions would.
Sorry if this is too long or if I offend anyone, it's not my intention.
I just think that Aelin needs to stop playing the blaming game. Both with herself and others. It's no ones fault that everything happened the way it did. None of these characters could predict the future and adjust themselves accordingly. The characters need to realize that *cough* aelin&chaolchapter7 *cough*
But then nother character can totally blame her for things and it would be okay?
No of course not! I just see it more in Aelin than the other characters, and that's why I pointed it out. She tries to look for someone to blame when something is wrong, which usually leads her to finding someway to blame herself. I think she needs to realize that some situations are not controllable and there is nothing anyone could do about them. (But maybe I'm just being a little biased because I want to protect and defend chaol)
Aelin starts the blaming game and the other characters get pissed (rightfully so!) and shoot back at her.
Ale wrote: "Jess, Liz, I totally I agree with both of you. Aelin has gone through so much in her life since she was 8 years old, but oh, she needs to apologize for everything? Okay. She has said SO many times..."
100% Agree! <3
Ah, I get you then, Priya. I disagree but I can see where you're coming from! It's okay.
Isn't pretty much everything the King's fault?
I Just Posted a Status Update Here on Goodreads Aka Warning About Spoilers Being On Tumbler and Possibly Twitter
We have a winner in the blaming game then.
Yes, we do! And one that no one can really be angry with! (Unless your an adarlan King supporter)
Depends on what you mean by supporter. For instance I support him in that he is frozen to death by Dorian until his body could shatter at the slightest touch. That's when I'd support him shattering into a million pieces by Aelins kick ass sword! ::evil smiles::
Ok, this is gonna be long, but I will focus on Aelin. (Lover her til death!1.- There`s no point in repeating all the events she has to overcome, we know them all. That`s done. And no, she`s not guilty for all. Just think about it, how many options did she have for most of them?
2.- Her more important mistakes has been accepted for her, and yeah, she has tried to correct most of them, and she`s working and will work to correct the last ones. So, about asking for forgiveness... SHE HAS ALREADY DONE IT. First, she haws to forgive herself to overcome the other mistakes. Second, the most important persons who she owes an apology is HER PEOPLE. Every damn soul in Terrasen, and she will do it when the time calls for it. Third, about Chaol, she`s already said I`m sorry for what she did. For the people she`ve slaugthered, most of them where courtiers or corrupt people from the Adarlan empire. That doesn`t mean she had the right to assesinate them, but they were not exactly people that deserves an apology.
3.- When you want forgiveness, you don`t just say I`m sorry, you work to fix things to deserve it. By the way, you win nothing blaming yourself once and again and again. What it`s done it`s done, so fix it. Enough of guilty.
4.- Babys, THIS IS WAR. You don`t win war being such a lovely and honorable and good intentioned person. Let`s not be so inmature. There`s no war won in that way. You need to be cunning, clever, cold -minded, determinated and perhaps wicked. Trying to talk about honor is amazing and ideal, but is nothing but an utopy. Too bad, but that`s reality.
5.- Aelin has never been different in any book. She has never been presented like a lovely and sweet and formidable good. No, she`s arrogant, brave, cunning, mind-ass, volatile and badass in the same way she`s loyal, kinda sweet, pasional and noble in her own way. She`s overprotective too, always risking everything in order to help the people she cares of. So what? Now we don`t like this things? We`ve always known her personality. There`s nothing new!
6.- Unpredictable??? Don`t think so. Impulsive, and I`agree but not at all. She`s a cold - minded person. She uses to think and calculate before acting. (About Nehemia, how many people could be able to think correctly when they are looking at the terrible corpse of a bff?)
7.- Here I see the problem. Perhaps you don`t lke this but: ALL THE WARS HAVE THEIR OWN CRIMES AND TERRIBLE LOOSES. Every leader has to do really terrible choices, sometimes. We don`t need people with good intentions. The world is not made by good intentions. We need actions. People able to take choices with all their consecuences.
8.- You know, there`s no way in hell we can compare a person from Adarlan with a person of another kingdom like Eyllwe and Terrasen. Obvious none of them has suffered like them. You can`t pretend that Aelin, Ren, Ansel, Nox or whoever else could have the same morals and values than Dorian or Chaol. Fortunatly, they haven`t gone through terrible things (til the end of HoF, of course.
No, I haven`t read spoilers. However I love Aelin (and the book) cause is an amazing serie. The story is great, the characters are real. There`s no pretensions and no ideals in personalities. I love Aelin cause she`s the best woman I`ve ever read . First mind than feelings. Clever more than noble. She makes mistakes but she correct them all. SHE`S NOT PERFECT, but she gives everything for the people she loves. Sorry for all this but I had to say it.
Sorry, auto-correction driving me crazy!
Noris you said that so perfectly! Aelin is absolutely flawed but that makes her so real and relatable! I have never found her annoying. She is undoubtedly selfish at times but I don't blame her in the least for having those selfish feelings, it's only Human that she would want to escape the terrible things in her life and try to be happy elsewhere in another Country, far from her horrifying past and grief. If she were some Holy and amazing Martyr from the get go we would not relate to her or find it remotely realistic because it doesn't make sense for her to always have wanted her throne and title as Queen, her upbringing would never have made that possible. Considering everything she has been through, most people would be irrevocably damaged and possibly crazy (or dead) after having dealt with such trauma! Obviously this a Fantasy Novel so we aren't going to read about an unstable mental patient, but the point is Aelin is freaking AWESOME and I am very glad that you come on these threads and defend her character.Even though you really shouldn't have to, because if people don't like Aelin/Celaena then why are you reading this? LOL xDSide note : Aelin has embraced her Queenly destiny now after finally coming to terms with everything. She had to stop feeling so incredibly guilty for everything and hating herself before she could truly come back and reclaim ANYTHING over in the Adarlan. I'm sure Aelin will be addressing her people in due time, but of course things need to keep progressing, so keep your shirts on folks! (Except Rowan.....he can always be shirtless xD)
I totally agree with Noris. And her character has always been brave, cunning, haughty, selfish, and a tad bit impulsive. BUT I also think that arrogent & haughty part of her personality is mostly a front...she's had very little real love experience in her life (I'm not talking about romantic love). Most people have betrayed her in some way or feared her since she was born. So at this point she's afraid to share the real her. You can see how raw she is when she admits that her biggest fear is that she's 'lost her way back to Terresen'.You can also see that she's growing. She's faced her fears and accepted them and if begrudingly has accepted that she is a ruler and cant escape it.
She's also out growing a little bit of that impulsiveness as well. Arobynn played on her impulsive nature by tricked her into ensuring the slave trade deal moved forward and then the job to follow that ended with Sam's demise. Like it or not he taught her a lesson she'd never forget. He planned that conversation outside her door and knew she would impulsively attempt to rescue him and she was so easily lead into that trap because she didnt do fact checking and consider her clients reason behind the assisinations. As the King's Champion she started asking those people questions to try to piece together why the King wanted them dead and faked their deaths.
I for one am excited to see Arobynns fall in these next few books. Arobynn is arrogent enough to think she's still Celaena and that he knows everything about her. How and what she'll do, so all of his plans will be based on that strategy/mindset. But I think Aelins advantage now is she see's him for who he is now and will be able to anticipate his plans. She's grown and I'm proud of her and I hope she gets him good.
You said that perfectly Noris. The thing you have to think about when you start bashing on Aelin's character is first..If you were put in the same situation that she is can you honestly say you would act different? Because I'm pretty sure no one would be any better than she is. In fact, I think most people would be much worse than her. With everything that has happened in her life, I think she deserves to be bitter and a bit cold and calculated because if she wasn't? She would be dead and her people would have no chance
yep. by any rights she should be dead in a grave in endovier or beyond insane from those mines. But they did not break her! Go Aelin!
Exactly. And about magic... IT MOST BE BACK IN ADARLAN. Why? Magic is not something irrational. In Erilea, the magic had always existed. Keeping it from it's owners is like keeping the keen smell of a wolf or the wings of a bird. Is a gift, something given to you by the gods (talking about Erilea) in order to makes you survive. Who the hell does the king think he is to take magic from it's owners?
This is not something about ethics. You decide what to do with your skills. And no, Adarlan wasn't defensless against magic wilders if the king hadn't eliminated it from the empire. Dorian, Kaltain and Perrington have magic and they're all from Adarlan.
The king is a fricking poker face! He didn't have lovely and good intentions when he erased magic from the continent! First, he wanted to be the only one controlling magic, we all have realized about it. Second, it ensured his trimph in all the continent. What happen when you cut a bird's wings??? Yeah, is very probable he dies.
So MAGIC HAS TO BE BACK!!!!
I didn't like the part when Chaol doesn't say Ren and Aedion about destroying the towers. I understand he's afraid about it cause Obvious they will destroy them all without a doubt. But is something that needs to be done. More than ever with the dark-magic-army the king is creating. I can understand he fears for his people (Adarlan men and soldiers) but so sorry, it was the king, his king who started everything.
So, I hope (and I'm sure) he will change his mind about it and he will do what is correct.
I thought about this more and I agree now Noris. But I'm still really worried about how a lot of the people will handle this (mainly in Adarlan because that is where the king is, and I'm not sure about the people elsewhere). The King has been brainwashing the people, telling them magic is evil, dangerous, and can't be trusted. And after so many years a lot of the families who don't have contact with magic probably believe him. I think having the magic back right away will definetly cause chaos, just as it did when magic disappeared. Peoples reactions would probably be a lot like chaols, they would find it hard to accept, and keep reciting what they were told about magic over and over in their heads. But without someone like what Dorian is to Chaol, (I'm not sure about adding celaena/Aelin because he hasn't been with her and her magic/faeness for too long (unless I'm forgetting something)) that he knows and loves and has magic, the people will probably not try or want to accept magic, and take it worse than chaol did (and chaol took it pretty badly). I just really wish there was some king of transition phase before the magic completely comes back.
Noris, Jess & Hailey, I send you all sisterly love! I still can't believe all the hate I am seeing on Aelin. I am holding back commenting on things until I read QoS, but I feel like its going to be a small book by the time I get finished writing all my feelings/thoughts out. I tip my hat to what you have wrote so far.
Agree with Priya. Chaol has many reazons to be afraid about magic's return. However I don't think Adarlan People will go mad when this happens. I don't even think they agree with king's rooted disgust with magic, but they DO fear the butchering blocks. Preety razonable. I've just realized that this is exactly like what happened in my country (Mexico) 400 years ago during the colony. The citizens and natives DID know about the benefits of the tradicional medicine (black magic according with the Saint Office Tribunal) I don't even know if you have a name for this in your countries. The thing is that even if the tradicional medicine could save a thousand lifes, the people never practiced it, they didn't dare to say the word aloud. They were so terrified with the Inquisition's laws that they could betray an innocent instead of being captured.
Wow that's really interesting Noris. I agree though things are going to get a little complicated in Adarlan when magic suddenly comes back, but I think if Aelin and Dorian who will be the rulers, show they are kind even though they have magic, and Dorian shows he's still the same prince who just had magic all along (because I'm sure the Adarlan people really liked the prince to begin with) they will be reassured and it should be fine.
I'm actually really curious about what adarlan thinks of Dorian. I think they probably like him though, but not as much as the people from wendlyn like Gallan (was that his name? I don't remember his name but the Wendlyn heir), but they still like him. I mean come on who doesn't like Dorian? He is a cute little cupcake.
Winter is Coming….It maybe that we could use this Game of Thrones line in Ardarlan. ( I haven't read any of the spoilers). We don't officially know what Collar Dorian will be doing with his magic while under the influence of that collar…maybe those citizens who have been brainwashed will be seeing a close up version of how 'bad' magic is….
I thought maybe KofA would send Dorian to Wendlyn as a General but perhaps he'll stick around Rifthold and terrorize his people…it would make him hard to trust…once that collars off...
Yeah. Changing the topic a bit. Have you realized that Manon's story is the same than Aelin's??? Manon is bullied by the bitch (her grandmother) while Aelin was bullied every damn day by Arobyn. I think that Manon will change her side in the war when1. She realizes about what really is the king's army.
2. Aelin tells her all about her life
I mean, the similitude is amazing. I kinda think will be like:
Aelin: Arobyn betrayed me when he realized that he couldn't control me anymore. When I became a threat for him. Who do you think is the biggest threat for your grandmother???? (Predator smile)
Manon: (shows teeths, swallow hard)
Aelin: By the way, I killed the yellowlegs old matron, perhaps I could kill their heir too...
Manon: (smile showing her Iron teeths)
How many of you think Magic will be free at the end of QoS? I was thinking maybe end of this one or early on in Book 5. What do you think?
Noris wrote: "Yeah. Changing the topic a bit. Have you realized that Manon's story is the same than Aelin's??? Manon is bullied by the bitch (her grandmother) while Aelin was bullied every damn day by Arobyn. I ..."I totally can't wait for them to meet up. They are so gonna beat each other up at first and then be like best buds. Bad A$$ sisters FOREVER lol!
I'm thinking it will be free at the end of the fifth book and there will be an all out battle of magic against the king (and also maybe Maeve) in the end in the final book. Also yes Jess I agree with you in the fact that the king will keep Dorian in Rifthold, probably n the castle as well, maybe as possible bait for Aelin or Chaol, but then they see that Dorian is evil, under the control of the collar and they have to find a way to free him. God I hope he's freed by the end of QoS!
I can't wait only 10 more days to go! I work late on the 31'st so I'm coming right home and hopefully downloading the book at midnight.
Do you guys think the Little People will come out and play a bigger role once Magic is free again? They've been helping Aelin here and there all along and paying tribute to her whenever they get the chance. I'm hoping to see more of them
I think even with magic back their roles will be about the same. Helping Aelin out whenever they can, and perhaps a little bit more than before. But I'm really not sure.
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Hey girls... But according with the quote about Rowan, if he's with her in Adarlan, I'm sure is because magic is back. I mean, I love Rowan but he's of no use in his hawk form. And I don't think he could go to Rifthold or Terrasen if he can at least walk without being threatened.
