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Cryptonomicon, part 2
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I just finished listening to the second 1/3rd of the book a couple days ago, and overall I would still say it's a 3 star for me, for the exact same reasons that I mentioned last time. 1) I would also still agree with my earlier comparison that this book is a smarter James Rollins book. The fact that it is based in adventure for secret treasure, with secret codes and societies, references to previous ages in history with the main adventure being contemporary, shadowy corporations being involved, hunts across multiple countries, switches in the perspective of which "team" is involved, the intersection of technology and vague supernatural elements (with Enoch Root particularly in this book) is all super reminiscent.
I think the comparison of this book to any of the mass-produced super famous paper back adventure authors would be accurate. This book is just better written (in my opinion).
It's interesting because I would say that in many ways this book is more comparable to a lot of popular "not literature" books, than the "real literature" that is often on this list (arbitrary as that distinction often is).
But as far as list books go: I could see some similarities with this one and Cat's cradle (STEM tangents, references to history, intersecting storylines, dangerous tech, etc).
2) I also still don't feel severely close to any of the characters, but I am glad Rudy made a reappearance, and I am enjoying the parts about Goto Dengo as well. I still dislike the epiphyte crew.
3) In general, I would say badly. None of the major POV characters so far are women despite the amount of characters and different story-lines in this book, and the way the are discussed by the main male characters are...iffy in my opinion. Usually in the form of sexual commodity. This one section where Randy talks about how he perceives lesbians was especially...yikes. Once again, while it could be worse, I totally see why "nice guy nerds" of the internet have deified this book.
I don't think the problem is that it's overtly masculine- I enjoy many works about homosocial environments that just don't happen to have many or any women in them (such as British navy accounts, WWII stuff, ancient Greco-Roman conquest stuff etc). I think the issue is the mediocre representation/portrayal of women that are there, and how they are valued and discussed by the male characters, and whether or not the author seems to be indicating these male POVs are correct or not.
This one seem to hit the wrong side of these questions for me, which does affect my enjoyment of it. I don't honestly think sci-fi is unique for it's lack of diversity and gets a harsher rap compared to other genres than it should sometimes. But, due to the fact that at it's core sci-fi claims to represent the underdogs or the ability to transcend the limitations of our world- I can understand why we should demand better of it.
I also think it's a bit of a misconception that sci-fi isn't massively enjoyed by women- it is and I'm one of them (so is my mom- and I credit her for my early exposure to sci-fi). The problem isn't women's enjoyment or involvement in sci-fi (often attributed to being created by either Mary Shelley or Margaret Cavendish-holla!), but the unwillingness of much of the the "boys club" establishment to make room for female fans and creators in community spaces under the misconception that it "belongs" to them. Ditto with non-white fans and creators. I'll try to stop myself from going any more full thesis on this point lol.
4).....everything James Rollins has ever written if you like the plot, Pirate Cinema if you like the philosophy (not my cup of tea, but I find other things redeeming about the book).
5) Absolutely nothing, and I hadn't heard of him either until starting this book. Which i'm a bit surprised by, because I tend to love sci-fi and he seems to be big with a lot of sci-fi fans.
I'm going to answer a couple of these now and I'll continue to think about the others. 2. Who is your favorite character so far, and why?
I think that I would have to say Bobby Shaftoe is my favorite, just because I find him the most entertaining. However, I'm still not strongly liking or connecting to any of the characters. As mentioned in the discussion of the first third, I find the plot incredibly intriguing and continually more so as I got into the middle of the book, but I'm not impressed with the characterization.
3. How is Stephenson doing with respect to gender inclusion? Should there be more female characters, and/or more page-time for the female characters he has included? Do you find this book overtly masculine, and does that affect how much you are enjoying reading it? (A lot of sci-fi is criticized for its lack of diversity, and it has been said that more women would enjoy sci-fi if only more sci-fi was written with female readers in mind. Ditto for non-White inclusion, of course.)
I don't mind a book that is heavy on male characters, but I do think the few female characters in this story deserve much better description/page time. For example, Amy Shaftoe could be an incredibly strong, central character, and she just seems to be on the edge with Randy and Douglas getting all the attention. I agree that the female characters seem to be mostly sex objects, but I think that Amy and Glory could have both been so much more if the author would have been so inclined.
5. What other Stephenson books have you read? How does this book compare to those, so far? If you have not read any other Stephenson books yet, do you plan to?
I have not read any others, but I would be willing to considering my thoughts so far on this book.
1. As you are reading this book, what are some other books (on the 1001 List or not) that come to mind, inspired by the scenes, the tangents, the overall tone of the book, etc.?I agree with Amanda that there is a bit of Kurt Vonnegut in Stephenson's writing in terms of the blend of history and very detailed personal tangents. Probably some David Foster Wallace also. However, the goal of the novel appears to be less about introspection and the human condition and more about a straight forward treasure hunt so it does seem to cross over to non-literature thriller writers also.
Also, again, and this is still somewhat crazy in my own mind, but the impact of this book continues to remind me of The Kindly Ones. The Kindly Ones exists on a much higher level and is dealing with some extremely different emotional and intellectual impacts but there is something about a big fat book with lots of characters and my slowly being pulled into the whole world of the book rather than just the plot of the book.
2. Who is your favorite character so far, and why?
I have come to like the female characters Amy Shaftoe and even Mary - they actually have some charm and depth. I am still not connecting with Randy or any of the Epiphyte crowd which is a major part of the book but at least Amy/America is in that story line. I have enjoyed more the story line following Goto, Bobby, Enoch Root and even Bischoff and Rudy.
3. How is Stephenson doing with respect to gender inclusion? Should there be more female characters, and/or more page-time for the female characters he has included? Do you find this book overtly masculine, and does that affect how much you are enjoying reading it? (A lot of sci-fi is criticized for its lack of diversity, and it has been said that more women would enjoy sci-fi if only more sci-fi was written with female readers in mind. Ditto for non-White inclusion, of course.)
As I mentioned above, my interest level did go way up when Amy and Mary became a bigger part of the story and, Stephenson has not been good at gender inclusion. There is probably some inclusion in regards neurological disorders or what I have started hearing called: "exceptional minds" or people on the autism spectrum. It does appear that a number of our characters have "exceptional minds".
4. Complete this sentence with a few titles: "If you enjoyed Cryptonomican, you might also enjoy reading Wind Up Girl by Paolo Bacigalupi which is considered "bio punk" or maybe anything by Gibson like Neuromancer which is not straight sci fi but cyberpunk. Of course, the WWII storyline is more Vonnegut.
5. What other Stephenson books have you read? How does this book compare to those, so far? If you have not read any other Stephenson books yet, do you plan to?
I read Snow Crash while I was in College. It was peer based required reading. It is probably crazily outdated now. Cyrptonomicon is a wider ranging and better written book but less ground breaking in regards its genre.
1. As you are reading this book, what are some other books (on the 1001 List or not) that come to mind, inspired by the scenes, the tangents, the overall tone of the book, etc.?This really isn't my genre so my comparisons may not be very accurate, but books by William Gibson come to mind. I also agree that are similarities with Vonnegut.
2. Who is your favorite character so far, and why?
I have yet to bond with any of the characters, but I find the parts about Bobby Shaftoe entertaining.
3. How is Stephenson doing with respect to gender inclusion? Should there be more female characters, and/or more page-time for the female characters he has included? Do you find this book overtly masculine, and does that affect how much you are enjoying reading it? (A lot of sci-fi is criticized for its lack of diversity, and it has been said that more women would enjoy sci-fi if only more sci-fi was written with female readers in mind. Ditto for non-White inclusion, of course.)
I agree that it is too masculine and too white. The non-male and non-white characters do not occupy a big enough role.
4. Complete this sentence with a few titles: "If you enjoyed Cryptonomican, you might also enjoy reading _________________"
Honestly, I have no idea. Most likely something I haven't read.
5. What other Stephenson books have you read? How does this book compare to those, so far? If you have not read any other Stephenson books yet, do you plan to?
I haven't read any other books by this author. I had wanted to read Snow Crash, but now I'm not so sure.
Diane wrote: "1. As you are reading this book, what are some other books (on the 1001 List or not) that come to mind, inspired by the scenes, the tangents, the overall tone of the book, etc.?This really isn't ..."
Snow Crash is very different, and much shorter. It reminds me more of books by Alastair Reynolds, William Gibson, or maybe some of Isaac Asimov's non-robot books. So far it is still my favorite of Stephenson's books.
Jamie wrote: "Diane wrote: "1. As you are reading this book, what are some other books (on the 1001 List or not) that come to mind, inspired by the scenes, the tangents, the overall tone of the book, etc.?This..."
Good to know. I have always heard favorable things about it.
1. As you are reading this book, what are some other books (on the 1001 List or not) that come to mind, inspired by the scenes, the tangents, the overall tone of the book, etc.? The thread about Glory and Bobby Shaftoe reminded me a bit of The Quiet American(Graham Greene). For some reason the bits about Qwghlm reminded me of The Short Reign of Pippin IV (John Steinbeck). The overall book reminded me of Clive Cussler novels, but more long-winded and with less action. 2. Who is your favorite character so far, and why? I guess Waterhouse was my favorite character. I didn't really connect with him much either, but he's the character I came closest to actually liking.
3. How is Stephenson doing with respect to gender inclusion? Should there be more female characters, and/or more page-time for the female characters he has included? Do you find this book overtly masculine, and does that affect how much you are enjoying reading it? This book seems like the sort of novel my former tech-support coworkers would enjoy, especially those computer nerd guys who never really talked to anyone who did not also live and breathe computers. There are women in the story, but only as support roles, and never really necessary to the plot except as sex interest or distractions. I know I would have appreciated a few more female characters in non-sexual, non-romantic roles, including women who actually know math and do code stuff like what the guys get to be good at.
4. Complete this sentence with a few titles: "If you enjoyed Cryptonomican, you might also enjoy reading _________________"
1Q84, by Haruki Murakami - very similar sort of masculine world, in a long, complicated book
The Quiet American, by Graham Greene - a soldier dealing with what to do with his mistress once he is no longer stationed overseas
Catch-22, by Joseph Heller - another masculine setting, this one focused on the arbitrary rules of the military and the resulting absurdities of wartime
Books by Clive Cussler and Ted Bell. These are better paced and have more action, but are similar in scope and have similar story-lines. The Fargo series by Cussler even focuses on treasure hunting, and lots of NUMA and Dirk Pitt adventures involve trying to find lost gold or stolen artwork from WW2, so the hunt for the lost Nazi?Axis gold stash would be a familiar plot for Cussler fans.
5. What other Stephenson books have you read? How does this book compare to those, so far? If you have not read any other Stephenson books yet, do you plan to? I have read Anathem, Seveneves, and Snow Crash, so far, by Stephenson. I disliked Seveneves, which I found tedious. Anathem was fun, but slow and with math tangents similar to those in Cryptonomicon. It turned out to be sci-fi, eventually, but it took hundreds of pages to get to the sci-fi bits. Snow Crash is much shorter, and clearly sci-fi from the very beginning, dealing with virtual reality and cybertech in a futuristic setting. I enjoyed Snow Crash and Anathem a lot more than I did Cryptonomicon.
1. As you are reading this book, what are some other books (on the 1001 List or not) that come to mind, inspired by the scenes, the tangents, the overall tone of the book, etc.?
2. Who is your favorite character so far, and why?
3. How is Stephenson doing with respect to gender inclusion? Should there be more female characters, and/or more page-time for the female characters he has included? Do you find this book overtly masculine, and does that affect how much you are enjoying reading it? (A lot of sci-fi is criticized for its lack of diversity, and it has been said that more women would enjoy sci-fi if only more sci-fi was written with female readers in mind. Ditto for non-White inclusion, of course.)
4. Complete this sentence with a few titles: "If you enjoyed Cryptonomican, you might also enjoy reading _________________"
5. What other Stephenson books have you read? How does this book compare to those, so far? If you have not read any other Stephenson books yet, do you plan to?