The Evolution of Science Fiction discussion
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On Basilisk Station
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August 2019 On Basilisk Station by David Weber
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I started it yesterday and I cannot say I'm impressed. Especially strange for me at the beginning was usage of broadsided in (naval) space battle. I understand, it is a stylization for historical fiction about Horatio Hornblower 1 - 11., but it sounds a little too direct
I'm not a fan of military SF so I might not read this, especially considering that we just finished The Forever War. But I am a little curious if anyone wants to compare those two books....
It is supposed to be inspired by & basically be Horatio Hornblower in space, but there are some interesting updates & differences. Obviously, space ships instead of sailing ships, planets, wormholes, & yet the strategies & tactics are incredibly similar. Plus, Honor is a great heroine. I like her a lot more than Horatio. I'll be rereading it as an audiobook. I got hooked on this series because it's a freebie from Baen books. I read it as an ebook, then wound up buying a dozen or more books in the series. I think it's best in text format since Weber is prone to data dumps. I didn't mind them in the first book the first time through. They're necessary, but I found them irritating in the other books & on rereads. Still, I know the book well enough that I can skip through them as needed without missing anything important.
I'm about 50% through and I think that the protagonist's part is too noble bright, knight in shining armor. I'd much prefer more ambiguity like covering some smuggling not for own enrichment but to get necessary satellites or funds to bribe locals to stomp drug dealers
Oleksandr wrote: "I'm about 50% through and I think that the protagonist's part is too noble bright, knight in shining armor. I'd much prefer more ambiguity like covering some smuggling not for own enrichment but to..."Space operas are not known for ambiguity in their moral characters. In fact, simplicity is one of their defining points.
a novel, movie, or television program set in outer space, typically of a simplistic and melodramatic nature.
I like them, although I wouldn't want to read only them. The series does contain ambiguity later on, especially with the 'bad' guys, but the stories are all pretty straightforward & fun. Honor has her bad days, but they're always understandable & she kicks ass along the way.
I should mention again that you can find this book free at Baen. Weber was one of the first authors to make his older books free in the Baen library a decade or so ago. I downloaded this one, read it, & immediately bought another in paperback which I prefer. I think I have a dozen now. It's still free & you can download it here:https://www.baen.com/on-basilisk-stat...
There are a lot of free books there (Hammer's Slammers & more) & a lot of extras if you download the Baen CDs which are here:
http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/
Jim wrote: "Space operas are not known for ambiguity in their moral characters. In fact, simplicity is one of their defining points."While I agree in principle, There are space operas more or less complex, like Ian Banks' Culture series, or Vernor Vinge or Hyperion series by Dan Simmons
I don't consider any of the 3 you named space operas. IMO, space operas are fairly simple, quick, action-packed reads. I found your examples to be dense, plodding, unreadable bricks, just the opposite of the Honor Harrington series. That's just me, of course. Obviously your definition varies.
Ok, definitions differ :) as well as what is readable. For me infodumps in this book are unreadable, while they flow perfectly in other books I've mentioned
I'll agree that his info dumps are a bit hard to take, especially in audio & when they're copied almost word for word from book to book.
I'm enjoying the story again. The politics are well done. Not too complex, but enough to justify the mess Honor finds herself in. I really liked the mock battles, too. The jump to the admiral's point of view was good. The mess at Basilisk Station seems quite logical. This is where I love the way her personality shines here. To me, that's the best part of the series.I got pretty irritated at Weber's initial description of Honor. It seemed as if it went on for pages. The worm hole explanation was too long, too. It's necessary, but he kept qualifying it which added to the complexity & it's too complex to start.
Sorry you didn't enjoy it more. Later on in the series, the choices & personalities become more complex.
What do you think about warfare (not the battles as action, but rules of the universe)? I think that an attempt to play in line with European naval warfare of XVI-XIX centuries played some jokes with results. Like broadsides - why would spaces ship use two sides instead of four (up/down, it is 3D space), why they are long and thin instead of almost any form?!
Cheryl wrote: "I'm not a fan of military SF so I might not read this, especially considering that we just finished The Forever War. But I am a little curious if anyone wants to compare those two book..."Ok, I've been taken to task for the wording of this question. Let me try again. These books *could* both be defined as some sort of "military SF." Do they have any other points in common, or are they so different that the intersection they do have is irrelevant to those interested in either? Are fans of one at all likely to be interested in the other for any similar reason?
For some input from the disinterested side, I'm not interested in either for the simple reason that I'm a pacifist, don't like war, don't geek out over arms & tactics etc. I did read FW last month, and did try OBS when it was first buzzed lo these many years ago, but didn't find the first all that important or the second "fun" at all....
I liked the updated setting. It made a good point of how the tech changed, but people hadn't. Queen Liz of Manticore & money still rules. It's a space opera, so I don't take any of it too seriously. They're supposed to be fairly simple, so I just enjoy when it makes a good point. Plenty are being made, too. I like the fun he had with the hexapodal aliens & the way the weapons were updated for them. Pretty ingenious.
I also liked the bit about how perfect Manticore seemed when they got there. Incredibly similar to Terra & it came back to bite them 40 years later when a virus mutated & damn near wiped the original colonists out. I thought it was a nice touch.
Actually, not all of the ships were long & thin. That isn't really clear in this book, but the ships of the wall aren't. Others are spidery, especially merchant ships, IIRC.
The characters are pretty flat in this book, but I like them. Honor is definitely an updated Horatio Hornblower. She always does her duty, no matter how impossible the odds, & usually makes it come out pretty well in the end. Harkness is a hoot. A lot of the characters introduced in this book are in others, especially the Havenites. That's where the most change occurs, although all the characters grow somewhat.
From a military standpoint, this book has a lot more in common with Starship Troopers than it does The Forever War. It paints the military in a better light as far as need & service goes. It does show plenty of warts caused by politics & incompetence, but on the whole it is pro-military. It's not pro-war, but there's a lot of warfare. Haven has painted itself into a corner economically & needs to expand. Manticore is in the way & has to resist. They're doing what they can diplomatically, but force is also needed. That's a major theme of this book - intelligently applied force to maintain a civilized society. That's what Starship Troopers is all about, too. The Forever War is about stupid force applied simply to keep people in power & distract from internal problems. That's what the position of the Havenites in this book.
Is anyone else reading this? I've finished it & started on the second book which is better, IMO. Weber has a huge universe & a lot of complex ideas to set up in the first which led to many data dumps. I found most of them interesting this time. It's been 5 years since I last read the series & some of the tech is pretty complex.For instance, the way impeller bands & sidewalls work on ships leads to a lot of interesting tactics that are very reminiscent of the Horatio Hornblower series which dealt with sailing ships during the Napoleonic Wars. Since the setting is also a navy, albeit in space, there are even more similarities.
Now that the universe is established, Weber can go on to tackle a really interesting issue - a colony that was set up along religious lines & keeps women as second class citizens. With their isolation broken, that is changing, but there are some very real issues that are too obvious in our own society. Sending Honor in as the head of the task force is really pushing everyone's boundaries, including hers. Haven & a second planet settled by fanatics are also involved & it leads to a fairly complex mess on several fronts.
Of course, there were some pretty messy issues in this book, too. Dealing with an aboriginal species & the machinations of Haven made for a pretty good mystery. The politics behind the scenes were well done. I also really liked how even some of the better secondary characters didn't make it out alive & yet there weren't any Red Shirts. The final battle was nasty & very well described.
Here is my review of this book. I bumped my review of this edition to 4 stars from 3 stars.https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
i'll start in a few days, first finishing a 600p brick.
While we discuss the book, here is a link with a small parody on Weber's style of writing, which I found quite to the poiте and funny: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...
I'm on the third book in the series now, The Short Victorious War. I think the second in the series might be the best all around. It showcases all of Honor's strong points. She gets to save the day both in personal combat & in space, lose her temper a couple of times, & blackmail the head of a planet for a good reason.She's the typical space opera hero, strong, self-effacing, & dedicated. She carries out the spirit of her duties & that's often the point that gets her into trouble since it can conflict with letter of the law. There's not much of that in Basilisk. There she's just doing her job the way the orders say, even though it goes against custom. Everything is against her, yet she still manages to save the day.
Jim wrote: "I'm on the third book in the series now,."I'm glad to hear that the protagonist's character is developed as series progress. At the same time all these accolades are yet to push me to read the second volume, for there are quite a few alternative books to read :)
I get that you didn't like the book, Oleksandr. Considering your definition of space opera, I'm not surprised that it didn't meet your expectations. That's the way it goes sometimes.
I first read this book years ago and I've reread it several times now. Weber's writing does have its flaws (his info dumps are notorious) but I think he does exciting battle scenes and interest characters. In response to some comments I read above. Comparing On Basilisk Station to Forever War is almost an apples and oranges situation. Forever Wars is a very anti-war, anti-military, anti-government story. On Basilisk Station, on the other hand, portrays military service as an honorable pursuit and most of the people as trying to serve their nation. Of course there are exceptions (such as Honor's superior officer at Basilisk) but that's what drives the non-combat drama. Regarding the use of Broadsides in space combat, the sublight drives of the setting generate impenetrable shields above and below the ship, limiting weapons to firing to the sides. Obviously this was a creation of the author to justify a more historical style of combat, but it is an interesting idea that influences combat in a number of ways.
I agree with you, Michael. I just finished the third book & it had a very exciting battle in it. I liked the politics again. There were some real twists to that.At the end of it, there is a lengthy appendix on the history of ship design. It's nice that Weber thought about it so much, but I've never had any interest in reading it or any of the other appendices. It defeats the whole purpose of a space opera which is supposed to be simple & escapist. The stories are just that, so it's like putting lipstick on a pig, IMO. Still, I'm sure it will appeal to some & it's laid out the ground rules well for others.
The Honorverse has grown quite large & even attracted other authors to write in it like other large series such as Laumer's Bolo or Saberhagen's Berserker series. While I've enjoyed those stories in the last 2 series, I don't think I've read any in this one. The main books went on quite long enough for me. The end of the 8th book is the best stopping point for me. I've read beyond that & enjoyed the books, but the end of Echoes of Honor is really tough to beat.
Jim wrote: "At the end of it, there is a lengthy appendix on the history of ship design. It's nice that Weber thought about it so much, but I've never had any interest in reading it or any of the other appendices. "Earlier this year I've read The Mote in God's Eye and it had an afterword by Jerry Pournelle, which shows that the authors spent a lot of thought on FTL travel rules, but just by reading the novel it seemed like just an 'ordinary' hyperspace jumps. So, it seems quite a few authors think about such stuff, but not all add it to the book (which is a pity I guess)
Pournelle & Niven came up with some interesting books together & separately, but the Moties were early favorites of mine. They obviously gave a lot of thought to coffee too, but they seemed to put most of that in the book.;)
There's definitely a time & place for such extensive world building. Some authors handle it better than others. Their explanation of the density of the comet that hit the Earth in "Lucifer's Hammer" was very funny when I first read it. They compared it to an ice cream sundae.
Niven and Pournelle were brilliant together. Have you read "The Gripping Hand"?
No, I haven't. I'm pretty picky about sequels & I didn't think one would improve the Moties' story.
I've just started reading this, I can't stop picturing Honor with a cat on her head which is making it a little difficult to concentrate on the plot.
This cat, and the sometimes ridiculous amount of detailed information, makes it hard to take the book seriously. Must be intended, I guess.
Nimitz is a tree cat, more of a fluffy tailed, 6 leg/armed monkey than a cat. I found it rather a rather ridiculous character in the first book. He has some great parts in later books, though. I just finished the 5th book, Flag in Exile. While Weber has always been too detailed in his explanations, the data dumps rehashing the previous books history in this one was positively awful. It wasn't nearly as bad in the last few books, but he pulled out all the stops on this one. I suppose that means a person could start with this book & still be up to speed on the story to this point, but it is painful for anyone who has read this far & has to listen to it as an audiobook. It's probably worth reading these in text so that such long winded explanations can be skipped.
I really liked the underlying stories in all 5 books so far, but I think reading them in text & being able to skim is why. She's a wonderful heroine & the world is fairly complex without being overwhelming. There's a lot of obvious historical parallels that make it even better. He also writes action scenes very well & there are several of them in every book. Still, I can't take any more in audio.
Yes, Weber's info dumps can get rater tedious. When I've reread his books I tend to completely skip over them. At this point in time, his stores set in this universe have split into three different storyline (the core Honor Harrington books, the Crown of Slaves books, and the Shadows of Sagsnami books). In one of his most recent novels, he spent around 30-40 percent of the book info dumping on what has been happening in all three series! Even as a fan of the author and the universe, it was eye-rollingly tedious.
Dan wrote: "One thing I am a little surprised at is that no one here yet has equated Haven with the Soviet Union.."I guessed it was self evident from their full name, "people republic". However, there is more than one source of inspiration - USSR, Roman Empire, etc
Background can be info dumps & certainly was in the 5th book. His explanations of how things work are also in dump form, though. To my mind, an info dump is any long, detailed explanation. I can see some of them. The way the sidewalls & all work not only contribute to how the ships are built, but also they're tactics. Any reader who is interested in how/why the battle plays out the way it does rather than just going with the explanation needs to understand them.Still, his description of Honor in the first book was also an info dump. Since I listened to it, I can only guess that he spent a couple of pages describing her to me. Felt like it, at any rate. I prefer Zelazny's approach where he would only spend a few words, possibly a couple of sentences introducing a character & fill in more details as they were needed within the story. It builds an even stronger image in my mind than a single dump.
I'm a little leery of drawing direct parallels between Haven & just the USSR. There certainly are a lot of similarities, but he adds in some other tidbits later on that change that. Still, it's interesting & it grows more so. The 'bad' guys aren't always so bad, some are worse, & they're a good foil.
I am having trouble to finish this book and not sure what causes it. After the first few chapters the story is pretty ok and I'm not bothered any more by the cat/monkey or too much info dumps. It is just that its difficult to keep my attention to the text - has to do with writing style probably. And dialogues, a lot of them. So if I manage to finish it, this will be my last one in the series. I am surprised because although I was not familiar with the author, I see he is in fact very well known and his work highly appreciated. Must be me then.
I don't know, Leo. I've tried a couple of otherMaster and Commander series of his & wasn't really impressed. I think it's Honor herself that makes this series for me. While she's good in this one, she really shines in the next few books & absolutely goes nova in the 8th.Has anyone else read the Horatio Hornblower 1 - 11. or Master and Commander books? I don't think the writing style is much different & the setting is almost identical, but I loved the first & didn't care too much for the latter. I think it was just because I like Horatio a lot more than Aubrey.
Free Books!!! I cannot find where you have a place to put sales in this group. I post here because . . . Honor Harrington. Read on for more infoFree library here Baen books. 72 books. It emails you a copy of a book. My Kindle copy of Bedlam Boyz by Ellen Guon seems to work fine, although it's in that format where it skips a line between paragraphs. Don't look a gift book in the format, I guess.
Also, there are links to other books that are not free.
https://www.baen.com/allbooks/categor...
Also, a place to download Jim Baen-related things, but it sent an iso file (??) and I got a warning message and so deleted. Maybe you guys are smarter and can figure it out better than I can. I can't even tell what format, although there are ways to change between.
http://baencd.freedoors.org/
Both of these sites seem to be heavy on military SF. Weber and Ringo. In fact, some might be duplicated, but I don't have time right now to check
And finally, here's a place to get a big amount of data at once, and I think for free, but I have not tried it. It appears to download cd or iso files. (whatever an iso file is). There's one file called "The Honorverse," so I suspect a bunch of David Weber's Honor Harrington will be present . . . unfortunately I only made it through the first few and didn't like them much--too bad for me.
http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/
Disclaimer: I have no idea how safe these sites are. If my computer starts to have problems I will let you know. However, I am running a Mac, and therefore, your results may differ!
P.S. If I should have put this somewhere else in your group, let me know and I will move it.
Kateblue wrote: "Free Books!!! I cannot find where you have a place to put sales in this group. I post here because . . . Honor Harrington. Read on for more infoFree library here Baen books. 72 books. It emails y..."
Probably a good place for it since I posted the same info early on in this topic. It's how I first read this book & got hooked on the series. A good deal for Weber & Baen. They gave me one old freebie & I wound up buying a dozen books.
I've downloaded all their CDs too, but I don't think they've updated or added to them in years. I check in their every couple of years, but haven't downloaded any in a long time. Great stuff though, isn't it?
Sorry I repeated the info you posted, but not sorry to hear your news, Jim. I will feel safe to download everything now. Thanks!
No need to be sorry. It was worth repeating & it's good to have confirmation. It's definitely safe. Baen is quite reputable.
Finally finished. I fully agree that the battle at the end is well written and for me the most interesting part of the book. Of course, knowing that there are many Honor Harrington sequels following, I did not fall off my chair when it was clear which ship would eventually be the winner of the shoot out. But it was well done. And when you have finally finished the story, there follows a little lesson about calendars and time on different planets... who is going to read this close then?? But I do have a lot of respect for this Weber, he is surely an artist with his very own style and keeping to it. And he gives away some of his books for free - great!
"I'm a little leery of drawing direct parallels between Haven & just the USSR. There certainly are a lot of similarities, but he adds in some other tidbits later on that change that. Still, it's interesting & it grows more so. The 'bad' guys aren't always so bad, some are worse, & they're a good foil."I think there are definite elements of the USSR in the People's Republic of Haven, but they are certainly not the only only source used in creating the enemy for much of the series. The setting of their capital in "Nouveau Paris" and naming the chief revolutionary "Rob S. Pierre" (a call back to Maximilien Robespierre, a leading figure of the French Revolution in the late 1700s) suggests that was also a source for the creation of the People's Republic.
The Evolution of Science Fiction
Books mentioned in this topic
Bedlam Boyz (other topics)Master & Commander (other topics)
Horatio Hornblower 1 - 11 (other topics)
Flag in Exile (other topics)
The Mote in God's Eye (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Ellen Guon (other topics)Jerry Pournelle (other topics)
Vernor Vinge (other topics)
Dan Simmons (other topics)
David Weber (other topics)
A few of us might not have read it before and need to find a copy... ;)