The Sword and Laser discussion
TV, Movies and Games
>
The new MCU
At first, I was on the fence with Disney+; now I can't wait.
^ I didn't particularly like that update, especially the take on Sprite. But I've reread Kirby's run several times and really only the first four hold up. TBH I liked the Eternals best in the Celestial run in Thor. Problem is, the Eternals were originally intended to be outside the Marvel universe and be the explanation for mythology, so it is kind of funny that they were saved by a run in a pantheon based comic.
Watched The Rider by writer/director Chloé Zhao, who will be making The Eternals. It’s not an obvious connection, but The Rider is brutal and heartbreaking. The fact she got such good performances out of non-actors is impressive.I have to admit I’m not in an emotionally resilient place for the film’s message, but damn it’s powerful. (view spoiler) I’d say this comic book movie is in good hands, and it’s nice to see her get paid.
Disney+ got me at the price point. Hope they stay with it. What happened to " Competition drives down the prices" economic dogma!
Tor put out a list of comics to read to prepare for Phase 4, which I think is better than the one ComicBook.com put out. https://www.tor.com/2019/07/24/prepar...
Trike wrote: "New trailer for WandaVision: https://youtu.be/sj9J2ecsSpo"I'm a 49 year old man, but I might have "squee'd" a little bit.
It does look very interesting. And those actors all look great for that.
I juuuuust might have to watch that.Are they...really doing a Bewitched riff with Agnes?
John (Taloni) wrote: "I juuuuust might have to watch that.Are they...really doing a Bewitched riff with Agnes?"
Sure looks like it.
I like all the other little references, like the twins, who in the comics grow up to be Wiccan and Speed of the Young Avengers. (They’ve already set up the new Hawkeye and Stature, in the daughters of Hawkeye and Ant-Man.) Since Wanda is going to be in the next Doctor Strange movie, that bodes well for the twins being real, because in the comics Dr. Strange “delivers” the kids magically. Also, Kang the Conqueror is going to be the bad guy in Ant-Man 3, and he figures prominently in Young Avengers, which is another connection.
Those first two Young Avengers books are amazing. I highly recommend them. Young Avengers, Volume 1: Sidekicks & Young Avengers, Volume 2: Family Matters.
Also the appearance of Monica Rambeau, last seen as a little girl in Captain Marvel (which took place in 1998) who was the original Ms. Marvel but is now called Spectrum. She now leads the New Avengers, which sets up the next Avengers movie, which could pit the Avengers against the Young Avengers.
Depending on the outcome of The Falcon & Winter Soldier, the line-up for the next iteration of the Avengers could be:
Falcon (aka Captain America)
Bucky
War Machine
Wanda
Spectrum
She-Hulk
Hulk
Ant-Man
Wasp
Thor
Other new MCU news that came out is the casting of Tatiana Maslany of Orphan Black as She-Hulk. I think she’s amazing, but this breaks my hear because she would be *perfect* as Aurora in Alpha Flight. She’s Canadian and even looks like the character.Oh well, she’ll be great as Jennifer.
https://deadline.com/2020/09/she-hulk...
Have we heard officially that they are joining MCU and X-men properties? If not she could play both. Although I do think that is unlikely. I'm also guessing Phil Noto was happy about this, since he already drew her in the role. https://www.cbr.com/phil-noto-tatiana...
First look at Hulu’s M.O.D.O.K.: https://youtu.be/0j1mFgck0coMy first impression was that it looks and sounds like Robot Chicken, and it turns out it’s made by the same folks. I’ve never really liked M.O.D.O.K. as a character, but this treatment looks like fun.
I watched the cutscene movie from the Avengers game that just came out and I actually liked the serious treatment they gave to M.O.D.O.K. there, underscoring yet again that any character can work provided you have good writing.
Back to this, I really like the fact it’s stop motion, and giving it that handheld camera look really sets it off even further.
Well, I hate it. MODOK from the comics was some good 60s/70s superscience fun. This is a ridiculous parody. At least it's an obvious parody. I'll be giving this a miss.
John (Taloni) wrote: "Well, I hate it. MODOK from the comics was some good 60s/70s superscience fun. This is a ridiculous parody. At least it's an obvious parody. I'll be giving this a miss."M.O.D.O.K. was always silly, which is why I never liked him. Even for superhero comics he’s ridiculous. So for me leaning into that works. Plus, Patton Oswalt is one of us in that he is a supergeek, so it’s not like this is being mocked by people who hate comics and/or never read them. cough*BryanSinger*cough cough*BillMaher*cough
Dr. Strange will be in Spider-Man 3: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hea...Looks like they’re really leaning into the multiverse + time travel aspect of the Marvel universe, with the rumors that Jamie Foxx’s Electro as well as both Andrew Garfield and Toby Maguire will be in the next film, which is supposedly subtitled “Home Invasion”, with Kang the Conqueror being the bad guy in Ant-Man 3.
I gotta say, I never thought I’d see the day when superhero movies were as epic and wild as the comics.
Trike wrote: "I gotta say, I never thought I’d see the day when superhero movies were as epic and wild as the comics."I'm so thankful for that.
And with the multiverse, time travel and reality-bending magic courtesy of Scarlet Witch all in play, I’m laying even odds that Annihilus shows up in Ant-Man 3 and the Fantastic Four debut in Doctor Strange 2.I also would not be surprised in the slightest to see the Agents of Atlas show up in Shang-Chi, especially as the latest incarnation of that group is pan-Asian. John Cho or Henry Golding as Jimmy Woo?
I fully expect Nova will show up in Guardians of the Galaxy 3, and possibly Thor 3, which is rumored to see the return of the Grandmaster as well as the debut of Beta Ray Bill, not to mention the confirmed appearance of Jane Foster as Lady Thor. (Who might become Valkyrie’s queen of Asgard. Wouldn’t *that* be something!) I’m halfway convinced that we’ll have Korvak in Thor 3, too. He would be a natural antagonist for Kang, and in the comics he’s tied to both the Guardians and FF, plus Thor when he went on his time traveling adventures.
With The Eternals added to the mix, anything is possible. I would love to see the Gardener show up there. It’s a deep cut that only us hardcore Marvel fans would squee over, but we’ve already seen two of the Elders of the Universe with Collector and Grandmaster, and who better for cosmic shenanigans than immortal, primal godlike beings?
If they do a decent Beta Ray Bill I will fall to my knees and shout "we're not worthy!" But will it be a version respectful to Simonson's vision, or a royal eff up like the Mandarin? Or like the incredibly poor squandering of the Executioner's storyline? Odin is gone and Surtur has already destroyed Asgard, so there's no way Odin is recruiting an ally in a time of need.Similarly the upcoming Eternals seems to show no sign of Kirby's majesty. I can be cautiously optimistic for the vision you've described. But only cautiously. Too many screwups along the way.
It doesn't have to be straight out of the comics. Inclusion of the dwarf Eitri in creation of Stormbringer was nicely done. But the spirit of the original has to be there. That's been sadly lacking in too many MCU adaptations.
What I wonder is how all of this will go over with regular people vs comics geeks. A lot of the comics stuff is way over the top, verging on camp (Beta Ray Bill....). It also is the difference between comics that are delivered fairly frequently and movies that take years.
John (Taloni) wrote: "Rick wrote: "...verging on camp (Beta Ray Bill....). ""
He's Thor with a horse's head. I mean...
John (Taloni) wrote: "But the spirit of the original has to be there. That's been sadly lacking in too many MCU adaptations."I’m in the Strongly Disagree camp on that. I think they’ve done a brilliant job of keeping the core of the characters while both streamlining their stories and updating them to the current era.
Loki, Cap, Spidey and Thanos have the highest degree of difficulty when it comes to capturing their essence, but the MCU versions are spectacular in their renditions. The received wisdom, so-called, was that Captain America and Loki were impossible to adapt, the former because he’s too much of a goody-two-shoes throwback while the latter is too conniving and mercurial to adequately come across in a superhero flick, but they were done so brilliantly that they have become world famous and tremendously popular. That’s not something I would’ve expected, given all that’s gone before in terms of superhero cinema.
Sony had five swings at Spider-Man and while those films were varying degrees of popular, none of them were actually good, because they strayed too far away from the core character. The MCU version is the truest one, equaled only by the cartoon series The Spectacular Spider-Man and animated film Spider-Man: Into the Spider-verse. The second one wouldn’t exist without Kevin Feige’s extensive notes on The Amazing Spider-Man, which we found out via the Sony email hack, and his criticisms of that screenplay were exactly on point, which is why the MCU version is so great: Feige gets it.
Rick wrote: "John (Taloni) wrote: "Rick wrote: "...verging on camp (Beta Ray Bill....). ""
He's Thor with a horse's head. I mean..."
It’s even better/goofier than that: he’s a cyborg alien with a horse’s head wearing Thor’s clothes. Moreover, he looks nothing like the species he’s part of and they don’t even seem to have horse-equivalents.
I kinda don’t get that, either, and I am a full-on fanboy of this stuff. He makes sense in the same way Bi-Beast does. The lower lip of Bi-Beast’s top head is the brow for the bottom head. I do want to see an MRI of how the top head’s throat works with the bottom head’s brain... https://images.app.goo.gl/6dbrn3UmNEV...
I gotta think comics guys were doing a *lot* of drugs in the 70s.
The Grandmaster’s tower in Thor: Ragnarok sports giant sculptures of Beta Ray Bill, Bi-Beast, Man-Thing, Ares, Hulk, Night-Crawler and one other that might be Fin-Fang-Foom, which makes them all canon. I wonder if Fin-Fang-Foom will be in The Eternals.
I missed Fin-Fang-Foom. He should have been in one of Iron Man's movies.
^^ I don't know what's to Strongly Disagree with, Trike. Everything you said is true. And for that matter, Disney did a bangup job for the overall MCU with some really incredible storytelling. Changes made to the underlying material have generally been those needed to update the material and also present in a movie format instead of lengthy story arcs in monthly comics.It's also true (well, in my opinion it's true) that the Mandarin was a botch job, the Surtur saga was utterly wasted, and what they did with the Executioner's storyline a travesty. From holding the bridge at Gjallerbru to this pathetic character? Bleah.
For that matter Warlock was teased and then not presented. Warlock, one of the best of the cosmic characters!
Didn't I hear the real Mandarin was going to be in Shang-Chi?
"He makes sense in the same way Bi-Beast does. The lower lip of Bi-Beast’s top head is the brow for the bottom head. "I think this is what I'm curious about... at some point this stuff gets just silly. Normal, non-comic fan folks will do superhero stories but the comics get way the hell out there and I just wonder how much regular moviegoers will deal with.
John (Taloni) wrote: "^^ I don't know what's to Strongly Disagree with, Trike. Everything you said is true. And for that matter, Disney did a bangup job for the overall MCU with some really incredible storytelling. Chan..."I don’t mind those changes because they were minor in the overall scheme of things. On balance, with so many impressive adaptations and the sheer number of moving parts, the fact that they’ve nailed the “spirit of the character” so often is, frankly, astonishing.
In many cases, such as with characters like Bucky, Falcon, Zola, Zemo, M’Baku, Vision and Hawkeye, they made vast improvements over the originals. Taking the flashes of brilliance in the Winter Soldier comics and condensing them into an integrated story is truly impressive. Same goes for Christopher Priest’s run on Black Panther, where they took the best bits and distilled them down into a cohesive narrative.
Even in their admittedly abbreviated-for-movie versions, Surtur, Skurge, Proxima, Hela, Killmonger, Klaue, etc., they still had major impact and were memorable, channeling their basic selves from the books.
Ultron is the only one they really made major changes to that whiffed on the character from the comics, but he still kinda worked as a one-off.
Phil wrote: "Didn't I hear the real Mandarin was going to be in Shang-Chi?"That’s the rumor. And the excellent Marvel One-Shot “All Hail the King” has the Ten Rings infiltrate the prison and snatch Trevor for daring to use the Mandarin’s name.
Maybe Ben Kingsley will have a cameo in Shang-Chi. He could play a similar role as the movie director in the Mandarin reboot, the guy Mandarin tells his (fictionalized) life story to as a means of propaganda.
Tamahome wrote: "Looks like Warlock's already been on TV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtaZk..."Yeah, I saw that one. That's "later" Warlock when he's with the Guardians. It's fine as far as it goes. Kinda weird to see a cosmic entity knocked out by Black Panther but *shrug* TV conventions.
THIS is the Warlock I wanted to see. Angsty, filled with remorse from what the soul gem does, but unwilling to give up his mission. From the original Starlin run.
I also love this one, but if we had it, Iron Man doesn't have his great finish. *sigh*
Rick wrote: ""He makes sense in the same way Bi-Beast does. The lower lip of Bi-Beast’s top head is the brow for the bottom head. "I think this is what I'm curious about... at some point this stuff gets just silly. Normal, non-comic fan folks will do superhero things but the comics get way the hell out there and I just wonder how much regular moviegoers will deal with."
In the MCU, Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant-Man and Ragnarok seem to indicate regular audiences will tolerate a hefty dose of silliness, and Doctor Strange certainly brought the weird.
Both Deadpool flicks and Spider-Man: Into the Spider-verse really push the limits of silliness, and those three are big hits. I think the straights have been taught how to appreciate the goofy bits of superhero comics and have acclimatized to increasing oddness.
John (Taloni) wrote: "THIS is the Warlock I wanted to see. Angsty, filled with remorse from what the soul gem does, but unwilling to give up his mission. From the original Starlin run. "There’s no reason we can’t still get that. No Soul Gem, but it’s possible to find a workaround. Heck, with time travel and a multiverse, they can still get another infinity stone.
The way the backstory of the infinity stones is set up, it is entirely possible that the universe *needs* them in order to properly function. It would be a terrific irony if the Avengers have to restore them to the universe in order to keep things from spiraling out of control.
Shoot, that’s what I’d do for Phase Four of the MCU. That way the Gardener, Adam Warlock, et al, get their Infinity Stones and we get back on track with the comic books. Sub in Starfox or Galactus for Thanos, which is an easy switch. Moondragon and Pip then slot right back into the universe.
Then Phase Five is the Kree-Skrull War updated with the addition of Young Avengers and Champions as the Shi’ar and Badoon show up.
Yes, the Starlin run is classic. I bought the two annuals with the finale as a kid. 
Tamahome wrote: "Yes, the Starlin run is classic. I bought the two annuals with the finale as a kid. "I ran across the reprints in a shop while in college, and bought them in reverse order. By now I've read those too many times to count.
Trike wrote: "There’s no reason we can’t still get that. (snip)"*twitch*
GIVE TRIKE A $100 MILLION BUDGET! STAT!
I’d argue that Into the spiderverse gets more leeway into the crazy simply because it is a cartoon. But with all three you mentioned the very good writing and charismatic characters also made it hard not to enjoy them. I think if Ryan Reynolds was allowed to be more of his humorfull self as Green Lantern, that movie would have been much better as well. Despite all the other flaws in it.
Trike wrote: "In the MCU, Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant-Man and Ragnarok seem to indicate regular audiences will tolerate a hefty dose of silliness, and Doctor Strange certainly brought the weird...."
Hmm. Silly might be the wrong word. There was definitely humor in all of those but the stories were pretty standard archetypes. I think perhaps what I should be saying is that some of the comics get into weird and campy stuff (a horse faced alien cyborg with Thor's costume??).
All of the superheroes so far are kind of familiar to most American audiences at least. Cap is the stereotype patriot, Iron Man is the arrogant guy turned do-gooder, Strange is the Western skeptic who discovers the mysteries of the orient, etc. Some of the comic characters are... out there.
To be clear, I could be off base and the moviegoing public will eat this stuff up. That's why I'm curious to see. Assuming we ever get theater movies back.... :/
Rick wrote: "I think perhaps what I should be saying is that some of the comics get into weird and campy stuff (a horse faced alien cyborg with Thor's costume??)."I was picking up what you were laying down.
The flicks featuring the Guardians, Ant-Man and Thor: Ragnarok have lots of campy stuff in them. A genius engineer who is a talking space raccoon whose best friend is a sentient tree that only says the same three words which somehow convey loads of information is pretty out there. They also visit a gigantic, moon-sized head that thousands of people live in, plus a planet that’s also a person who happens to be a space captain’s dad. That’s goofy stuff. But it works.
In Endgame when Scott pitches his miniaturized time travel scheme he says, “I know, it’s crazy,” Natasha replies, “Scott, I get emails from a raccoon, so, nothing sounds crazy any more.” Sub-microscopic + time travel. I mean, right there, that concept is wacky. But we just accept it.
In GotG 2 they do a space battle that is literally a video game. I’ve never even heard of someone pushing back against that. Maybe because it’s the least campy thing in that movie. It’s definitely below Rocket Raccoon taking on dozens of nincompoop space mercenaries to a Glen Campbell song. https://youtu.be/NGLHZkOy6Vw
And Ragnarok, the whole scene that introduces the Grandmaster, his Contest of Champions, and the planet Sakaar is the height of silliness. Thor watching a projected intro film that is amateurishly made while the Willy Wonka song “Pure Imagination” plays yet the god of thunder is so terrified that he shrieks like a little girl. It’s delightfully silly: https://youtu.be/Iz6YPwmBsjg
We’ve already seen Howard the Duck. Can Squirrel Girl, savior of the universe, who bested Thanos using her pet squirrel, be far behind? At this point, I think Marvel could do any of their wackiest stuff and audiences would be there for it.
John (Taloni) wrote: "Trike wrote: "There’s no reason we can’t still get that. (snip)"*twitch*
GIVE TRIKE A $100 MILLION BUDGET! STAT!"
I’ll take that.
In return I will make a Savage Land movie to launch Phase Five. Ka-Zar and his pet sabretooth tiger Zabu living with his wife Shanna the She-Devil in a dinosaur-infested jungle hidden by ancient alien technology in the heart of Antarctica. They team up with the blood-red T. rex called Devil Dinosaur and his pal the young protohuman named Moon Boy. They’ll be visited by Spider-Man, Ms. Marvel and Stature (Cassie Lang, Ant-Man’s daughter) who are following a lead given to them by Man-Thing as they track mutations caused by the experiments of the High Evolutionary and his scientist sidekick, Sauron, who is a former human turned into a pteranodon-man determined to control the lizard people. Turns out the whole bunch of them are from an alternate Earth and they’ve created the Savage Land as a foothold on the regular Marvel Earth in order to begin their conquest.
Hijinks ensue, including Ms. Marvel and Stature growing to Giant Man size in order to punch mind-controlled dinosaurs. They eventually beat the bad guys and disable the interdimensional teleporter to save the planet, leaving Ka-Zar, Shanna, and Moon Boy in charge of the place.
The after-credits scene features Moon Boy accidentally turning on the teleporter and Ka-Zar sternly admonishing him to be careful, while Shanna tells them not to worry since it can’t reach the multiverse any more. They leave the room and the device continues to activate, transporting a huge green figure into the place. It’s Skaar, son of the Hulk, who grew up on Sakaar. And he’s pissed off.
Thus we begin World War Hulk.
OK you're right, Trike. The talking raccoon, is... uh.. yeah weird and campy.
^^ My first thought was, "think I read that storyline." Second look, I've seen all those elements but not together.It's probably a better story (well, outline) than I've seen from Marvel in a decade.
Disney probably wouldn't let you write it, but a thinly disguised superhero prose novel awaits...
The Sword and Laser
Books mentioned in this topic
Agents of Atlas (other topics)Young Avengers, Vol. 1: Sidekicks (other topics)
Young Avengers, Vol. 2: Family Matters (other topics)
Eternals (other topics)
Pardon me while I run around in circles flailing my hands in the air like a muppet.
Mahershala Ali as Blade! Scarlet Witch and Dr. Strange teaming up for a horror film! (About the multiverse!) Shang Chi has been cast! Hawkeye and Kate Bishop get their own TV show! Zemo is back! Jane Foster as Thor! Taika Waititi back to direct Thor 4! The Eternals will be full-on Kirby!
Also, the FF and X-Men were teased. These two I hope they don’t do for a while. Like 8 years or so.
Schedule:
2020
May 1: Black Widow
Nov 6: The Eternals
Dec: Falcon and Winter Soldier (Disney+)
2021
Feb 12: Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings (say that 5 times fast)
May 7: Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness (pretty sure we’ll call it “2”)
Spring: Loki, WandaVision (Disney+) — with Monica Rambeau!
Summer: What If? (Disney+) — Animation.
Fall: Hawkeye (Disney+)
Nov 5: Thor: Love and Thunder