Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Don Quixote - Revisited
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Chapters IX through XVIII
Kerstin wrote: "To his credit he remembers his good breeding and accepts her refusal. Marcela's coldness at his funeral tells me she wasn't worth it."Another way to look at it, and a good one. Thanks for this post.
Edit: I should add that reading other perspectives is what makes reading with a group fun and enlightening.
Kerstin wrote: "Her mistake is that no one lives in a vacuum. Her beauty will attract suitors - sincere and insincere alike - and her choice of roaming the wilderness will catch up with her eventually. Her idealism will be of little help then..."I don't see anything to suggest she has opted to live in a vacuum. Just because she has spurned the company of men who fawn all over her because of her beauty, it does not necessarily mean she rejects the company of humans. She doesn't solicit attention and is not a tease. She understands her beauty is fleeting and any man who chases after her because of her beauty must be a bit of a superficial twit. She wants to be left alone to live her life free of harassment.
I do not deceive this one or solicit that one; I do not mock one or amuse myself with another. The honest conversation of the shepherdesses from these hamlets, and tending to my goats, are my entertainment. The limits of my desires are these mountains, and if they go beyond here, it is to contemplate the beauty of heaven and the steps whereby the soul travels to its first home.
She seeks the honest conversations of women (honest, presumably, because they treat her as a human being and not as an object to satisfy their sexual desire). She wants to spend time in nature, appreciating its rhythms and beauty. And she wants to contemplate her soul, i.e. lead a spiritual life.
All pretty good, in my opinion.
Kerstin wrote: "Shepherds live on the fringes of society and due to the nature of their work can't/won't participate in society's and culture's rhythm and rituals, secular and/or religious.. . .. . .Marcela struck me as the quintessential bohemian idealist defending her God-given free will and right to self-determination. There is nothing wrong with these. . .Her mistake is that no one lives in a vacuum. Her beauty will attract suitors - sincere and insincere alike - and her choice of roaming the wilderness will catch up with her eventually. "
This touches on the points I made earlier. Marcella does not seem to be a misanthrope:
I do not love or despise anyone. I do not deceive this one or solicit that one; I do not mock one or amuse myself with another.However, she has chosen a sort of civil/social suicide to pursue a fictionally ideal pastoral life in a real world. There will be consequences to this choice for her and others. Her choice and her stated accountability to herself but not to others is very defensible and respectable. But, in more of a unknown possibility than a missed opportunity, nobody will ever know the benefits, if any, had these two self-absorbed dreamers formed a union and pooled their talents and resources. Before Grisostomo's suicide, one could have been simultaneously hopeful for them by their similarities and doubtful for them by their selfishness.
Just trying to make the waters a little muddier because Cervantes allows us to.
On the other hand, has she joined a convent instead of taken up shepherding, both spiritual retreats, I do not think her choice would have been met with as much resistance.
Tamara wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "Her mistake is that no one lives in a vacuum. Her beauty will attract suitors - sincere and insincere alike - and her choice of roaming the wilderness will catch up with her eventua..."I agree. Marcella was not cold, she just was sincere to herself. She was the victim of the lust/desire from others, she do not need to apologize for that.
Tamara wrote: "Doesn't DQ go after Marcela to protect her?Our knight resolved to seek out our shepherdess Marcela and offer to serve her in any way he could.
I think it is interesting that Cervantes seems to f..."
Yes, but we know by now what happens when DQ attempts to do anything chivalrous! I don't think we're meant to take his intent to protect her at all seriously. Like others, I was struck by Cervantes writing this strong female character, but his portrayal of poor Maritornes wiped out any credit he got from me for being compassionate and insightful about women.
Thomas wrote: "The Ingenious Gentleman Don Quixote of La Mancha has been called the "first novel," and Cervantes has been called the man who invented fiction."I've been thinking about this, since I've heard this claim many times. But Cervantes is apparently responding to an entire genre of chivalric novels, so I'm wondering how this could be. What is it about this story that makes it so different from what came before that it's called the first of a form that's now flourished for 400-plus years?
I'm also struck by all the lip service given to how brilliant and original some 20th-century writers were (Philip Roth comes to mind) who created alter-egos in their fiction. Seems to me that's what Cervantes is doing here, fictionalizing even himself as the narrator of this story. Obviously he wasn't really in the marketplace, where he met with a Morisco who could translate a manuscript he discovered on the spot. Roth and company were actually pulling a very old trick.
Kathy wrote: ". . . but his portrayal of poor Maritornes wiped out any credit he got from me for being compassionate and insightful about women..."I think we have to factor in the differences in their financial situations.
Marcela is independently wealthy. If I remember correctly, she inherited a lot of money and so she could afford to spurn the advances of any man.
Maritornes was poor, so she didn't have that option. She had to make herself available to men if she wanted to survive.
I think that makes Cervantes astute in that he recognizes the link between a woman's financial independence and her ability to choose her own path. He's an early Virginia Woolf in that respect :)
Regarding the bit about the enchanted Moor, I've been reading Washington Irving's Tales of the Alhambra, in which he retells old fairy tales supposedly shared with him by the inhabitants of the ruins of the Alhambra in Granada, whose families had been there for generations. This imaginative flourish of DQ's seemed to come directly from these old stories, which are full of talismans and hidden rooms and mysterious Moorish strangers with magical powers. If you visit the Alhambra today, they'll still tell you the story of the Gate of Justice--that at the end of the world, the hand carved on one side will reach through for the key carved on the other side, or something to that effect. By the time Cervantes is writing, Charles V has plunked his Renaissance palace down in the middle of the Alhambra and a massive cathedral has been standing in the center of Cordoba's mosque for a few hundred years, but obviously the influence of these old Moorish tales ran deep in this part of Spain. It's interesting to see a reference crop up here.
More on MaritornesMaritornes is from Asturias, a northern province, a region of Spain. Asturians are very proud because they started the war of Reconquest against the Moors as their occupation of Spain began in that region. The fact that Maritornes is a proud Asturian prostitute might be ironic joke Cervantes plays against the proud Asturian people.
Maritones takes pride in being reliable in her professional dealings.
The muledriver had arranged with Maritornes that they would take their pleasure that night, and she had given her word. . .she would come to him and satisfy his desire in any way he asked. It was said of this good servant that she never gave her word without keeping it, even if she gave it on a mountain with no witnesses, for she prided herself on being very wellborn and did not consider it an affront to be a servant in the inn. . .Furthermore, Maritornes, came to her profession through a series of of misfortunes and not because she’s inherently inclined to sin, emphasizing her ethics and ethical behavior within her profession.
. . .because, she said, misfortunes and bad luck had brought her to that state.It should also be noted that some of the women in Cervantes’s family may have served as a model for Maritornes; who, due to their own hardships, were involved in questionable activities at certain points of their histories. This family history may account for some of the higher behaviors and treatment of women, especially of prostitutes, in the story. Recall the "ladies" who were startled but kind to DQ in his first sally. Here, it is Maritornes, who despite her profession who is kind towards Don Quixote and Sancho
Then they brought Sancho his donkey and placed him on it and his overcoat on him. And the compassionate Maritornes, seeing him so exhausted, thought it would be a good idea to help him with a pitcher of water, and so she brought him one from the well because the water there was colder.Is Maritornes an early appearance of the hooker with a heart of gold trope?
David wrote: "This family history may account for some of the higher behaviors and treatment of women, especially of prostitutes, in the story..."A really good point, David. Thank you.
David wrote: "Marcella does not seem to be a misanthrope:I do not love or despise anyone. I do not deceive this one or solicit that one; I do not mock one or amuse myself with another.
However, she has chosen a sort of civil/social suicide to pursue a fictionally ideal pastoral life in a real world. There will be consequences to this choice for her and others."
We agree. I don't see Marcela as a misanthrope either, but she makes poor choices.
Tamara wrote: "She seeks the honest conversations of women (honest, presumably, because they treat her as a human being and not as an object to satisfy their sexual desire). She wants to spend time in nature, appreciating its rhythms and beauty. And she wants to contemplate her soul, i.e. lead a spiritual life.All pretty good, in my opinion."
There is nothing wrong with her aspirations, but I think she goes about them in an immature way.
Spain remained a Catholic country. If she truly desired the spiritual life wouldn't it have been more common to enter a convent? Here she would not have to worry about unwanted male attention. Many of the convents and monasteries are in strikingly beautiful settings, I am thinking of places like Grande Chartreuse in France, it is breathtaking. If living in a convent would not have been her inclination, she could always have joined the Third Order of any convent of her choosing, living the life of a contemplative outside convent walls. She had options. And if she were truly serious about pursuing the spiritual/ contemplative/ religious life, then she would gladly submit to the requisite spiritual direction she would receive.
In the spiritual life, the liturgical cycle and nature's change of the seasons go hand in hand. They complement one another in a deep and profound way. From this perspective Marcela is actually missing out on the very thing she is seeking. Having had a priest as a guardian I find it unlikely she wasn't aware.
David wrote: "More on MaritornesMaritornes is from Asturias, a northern province, a region of Spain. Asturians are very proud because they started the war of Reconquest against the Moors as their occupation of..."
A great comment. Thank you.
Tamara wrote: "Kathy wrote: ". . . but his portrayal of poor Maritornes wiped out any credit he got from me for being compassionate and insightful about women..."I think we have to factor in the differences in ..."
I wasn't really thinking of her occupation. It was his physical description of her that bothered me. For example: "And the blind illusions of the poor gentleman were so great that neither her touch, nor her breath, nor any other of the good maiden's attributes could discourage him, though they were enough to make any man who was not a muledriver vomit" (Grossman, ch. XVI)
I read "the good maiden" ironically here, which would work with David's interpretation, I think.
David wrote: On the other hand, has she joined a convent instead of taken up shepherding, both spiritual retreats, I do not think her choice would have been met with as much resistance. Kerstin wrote: Many of the convents and monasteries are in strikingly beautiful settings, I am thinking of places like Grande Chartreuse in France, it is breathtaking. If living in a convent would not have been her inclination, she could always have joined the Third Order of any convent of her choosing, living the life of a contemplative outside convent walls. She had options. And if she were truly serious about pursuing the spiritual/ contemplative/ religious life, then she would gladly submit to the requisite spiritual direction she would receive.
I don't think she would have been a good fit in the cloistered life. She is too independent & wanting to make her own decisions about her life. Fortunately she has wealth & an indulgent father. A life of obedience?? I don't think so!
Chris wrote: "I don't think she would have been a good fit in the cloistered life. She is too independent & wanting to make her own decisions about her life. Fortunately she has wealth & an indulgent father. A life of obedience?? I don't think so! ."I see it the same way you do, Chris.
Rafael wrote: "I don't remember if someone already say it, but I guess that to we better understand Don Quixote and its references to arab people we should be aware that almost all of Spain was under muslim contr..."Indeed, the actual country named Portugal means orange in Arabic. In Spanish, the word "ojalá," meaning, generally speaking, "I hope," or "hopefully" but literally from the Arabic “insh’Allah,” which we recognize as meaning according to the will of Allah. Also the word ¡Olé! is of Arabic origin. Just to throw a few examples to show agreement.
Rhonda wrote: "Rafael wrote: "I don't remember if someone already say it, but I guess that to we better understand Don Quixote and its references to arab people we should be aware that almost all of Spain was und..."Ojalá has a sinonym in Portuguese, oxalá. It's said that almost any portuguese word that begins with "al" came from the Arabic.
Susanna wrote: "I love how Rocinante is referred to as a person:[W]e’ll help Rocinante, though he doesn’t deserve it, because he’s the main reason for this beating. I never would have believed it of Rocinante; I..."
I find your comment interesting because I have often thought of Rocinante as a parallel for Don Quixote. The horse is ungainly, past his prime and ill-suited for the tasks at hand. "Rocin" means field horse (although it might also be applied to an illiterate brutish man) and "ante" suggests "before." Together they suggest that this is a "a horse which was once common or ordinary."
There is also a parallel when it is indicated that Rocinante is descended from Babieca, the horse of Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar, or El Cid, According to the story, a young Rodrigo was allowed to choose any young horse for his own mount. Rodrigo chose an ill-suited horse named Babieca, meaning "Stupid." According to the story, the colt was a weakling and unable to be trained. Yet Rodrigo trained him to become the great warhorse that carried him into battles for years. El Canto de Mio Cid, as the well-known heroic poem to all Spanish, seems to be referenced here as it does so many more times throughout the book.
Just as Don Quixote chooses his name in order to celebrate the glories of chivalry, the names also makes fun of chivalry or perhaps just appear ridiculous here. In Spanish "mancha" means a stain, but the word is probably from Arabic meaning a wilderness, hardly reminiscent of chivalry. The entire changing of the name of both is accomplished because they both have a new noble purpose...or is it? Either way it is very funny.
These name changes indicate a holy quest, much like Abram to Abraham, Sarai to Sara, Jacob to Israel and Saul to Paul. I disagree that Don Quixote is a Christ-figure, but he does believe himself to be on a holy quest. Note also that he changes the name of his great love to Dulcinea. I regard her as a Marian figure, much like the use of Beatrice in Dante's work
I might add that Sancho Panza and his donkey, Dapple, are another study in similar personalities. Just as Sancho is a popular and noble name, (several kings of Spain come to mind, including Sancho II, also called Sancho El Fuerte or Sancho the strong,) so is Sancho Panza is named Sancho the belly. Sancho talks to Dapple and Dapple acquires almost human characteristics, very much like Sancho, himself.
I always felt sorry for this old plough horse carrying a man dressed in ancient full armor. It seems that even actual medieval knights rode riding horses and then used their fighting horses when they went into battle.
I'd like to take a brief look at shepherds and sheep as part of the material background of Cervantes' Spain, and their ubiquity. Also, odd as it may seem, in regards to a lot of the events leading to the Spanish Armada, in the financing of which Cervantes was tangentially, and unluckily, was involved.(Please note that the following is very condensed: it just touches on points I consider interesting.)
Sheep ranching was big business in Cervantes' Spain, heavily promoted by the monarchy, which even withdrew agricultural lands for use as pasturage. See the Wikipedia article on the sheep-raisers' association known as the Mesta, and its favored legal position: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesta
Flocks could be huge, and Don Quixote's impression that all that dust must have been kicked up by the passage of armies might not be quite as absurd as it sounds -- until, of course, he starts seeing through the dust, and recognizing combatants......
Sancho was more in tune with the realities of rural Spain, if bone-ignorant of the larger world. Besides being basically sane, of course.
A lot of the official concern in Spain was with Merino sheep (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merino), which produced an exceptionally fine wool, much in demand in the rest of Europe. A main competitor was England: wool from both countries was processed into cloth in the southern Netherlands, an early site of (relative) industrialization in late medieval and early modern Europe.
The policies of the Hapsburg Charles V (King of Spain and Holy Roman Emperor), and his son Philip II of Spain towards both England and the Netherlands need to be considered in this light, as well as their avowed, and certainly sincere, struggle with heresy.
By marrying Mary Tudor, Philip not only drew England back into the Catholic fold, he united two rival wool-producing countries. Holding on to the production centers in the Netherlands, once they were attached to Spain by the Hapsburg inheritance, was another smart-looking move. This would have created a sort of vertical monopoly of production of the raw material combined with its processing, dominating parts of the European wool market.
Unfortunately for Spanish economic policy, if that was how they saw it, they wound up fighting an eighty-years war in the Netherlands, and in the end managed to hold on to the southern provinces, the modern Belgium, but only at the cost of wrecking its economy (not to mention some of its cities).
As for controlling English wool, Mary Tudor died childless, leaving the throne to Elizabeth, who was officially regarded by Catholic rulers as thoroughly illegitimate, and automatically suspect of heresy -- although Philip apparently was willing to marry her (despite the deceased wife's sister issue), at least as a matter of state policy.
(The Catholic Mary Stuart's obstinate refusal to recognize Elizabeth as the legitimate queen of England, despite the tempting offer to name her as Elizabeth's heir presumptive, has to be kept in mind in the tangled story of their relationship. And that played its own role in the launching of the First Armada.)
Grossman uses the more specific term nag which is a derogatory term for a horse, especially one that is old or in poor health. . .he finally decided to call the horse Rocinante,10* a name, in his opinion, that was noble, sonorous, and reflective of what it had been when it was a nag, before it was what it was now, which was the foremost nag in all the world.Like "the artist formerly known as Prince", DQ seems to name his horse "the stallion formerly known as nag."
*10 Rocín means “nag”; ante means “before,” both temporally and spatially.
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Thomas wrote: "What does it mean that the rest of the history of Don Quixote was written in Arabic? Is this a simple "historical" fact? Or is there more to it? "I will offer that this does not mean that the ONLY source of Don Quixote's adventures was written in Arabic, but that the narrator has discovered a source of these manuscripts which is written in Arabic. Just like manuscripts which were borrowed by certain missions, they sometimes became lost for hundreds of years and often appeared in unlikely locations and translated into different languages. Perhaps there are Spanish translations, but they aren't easily located.
The second reason for finding these Arabic manuscripts allows the narrator to both cast suspicion on whether the Moors, known to be free with the truth, as he indicates, have accurately depicted the true story or not. This was probably a bit more playful for the reader at the time than it is to us today.
Nevertheless, this discovery also suggests that the tales of Don Quixote, completely true or not, are more universal and widespread. As it turns out, this was like a prophecy considering how many languages into which this book has been translated so many times.
Lia wrote: "The story of Marcela really reminds me of Ovid’s Pomona."The story of Marcela is different from previous episodes, all of which are told by DQ or are about DQ. In contrast, in this case DQ is a listener/observer who plays no part until the story is over. Isn't this a stand-alone tale, a story-within-a-story (like a play-within-a-play)? I agree with Lia that Marcela's story and character are reminiscent of ancient Greek and Roman tales. To Lia's suggestion of Pomona, I would add Artemis, and the Amazons.
Picking up on Cervantes and Islam ("the Moors"), I recalled that I had once saved an article on the subject, and after some frustrating searching located it on an external drive.It is fairly short, but has interesting biographical and literary details, if you don't mind minor (I think) spoilers. The title is: Holy Moley: Don Quijote's Significant Señal - H-Net. The author is Horace Jeffery Hodges.
It addresses a claim that the novel "Don Quijote" (note the spelling) is secretly sympathetic to Muslims, which I must say I found strange on the face of it.
I can't give a usable URL for it -- the file downloads automatically when you click on the name after a Google (or other) search for the title (or author, if you don't mind scrolling for a while).
I think the Arabic sources for "Spain's greatest knight-errant" is yet another layer of irony from Cervantes.
Susanna wrote: "Why does Sancho constantly bring up his tossing in the blanket, when some of the other beatings seem just as bad or worse?"I'm going to suggest he remembers it because it was an insult, while the beatings were not. They laughed at him, treated him like a clown.
The dialogues are hilarious. I find myself laughing more at the dialogues than the narratives of the events. DQ telling us that his and Sancho's wounds are either trivial or are to be born stoically, and then later admitting his are quite painful; and Sancho whining about his wounds and the blanket tossing without getting any assistance from DQ and expressing the wish not to get beat up again, which you just know is going to go unfulfilled.The blanket tossing sounds like it could be fun on one hand, but I see where it could be very humiliating. I can't help but feel more sorry for the dogs and other animals this is commonly done to at celebrations than for Sancho, as the footnote in Grossman informs us.
David wrote: "The blanket tossing sounds like it could be fun on one hand, but I see where it could be very humiliating. I can't help but feel more sorry for the dogs and other animals this is commonly done to at celebrations than for Sancho, as the footnote in Grossman informs us."I'm loving the dialogue, too. I find myself laughing out loud.
And as for blanket tossing--We used to do something very similar as school girls in England to celebrate a friend's birthday. We would grab the birthday girl's limbs and raise her in the air the same number of times to correspond with her age. So a ten year old would be raised up and down ten times. We would count the number loudly each time. And then we would yell, "And one for luck!" before putting her down.
We'd call it, "Giving her the bumps!"
Cphe wrote: "Another who agrees that Dulcinea is a woman who embodies traits long before the times depicted. Perhaps that is why she appears as a bit of an outcast/mystery woman."Do you mean Marcela? Because I thought Dulcinea was the one that is more like the passive 'object' of chivalric fantasies (at least by what DQ describes so far of fair damsels in distress and princesses), rather than the 'subjective' and independent woman depicted in Marcela.
I wonder if equality (not just across the gender but across social caste as well) is one of the themes of this novel. In chapter XI, DQ asks Sancho to sit by his side and says that "one may say of knight errantry what is said of love: it makes all things equal."
Also his frequent mention of the golden age seems to remind me of Rousseau. "Fortunate the age and fortunate the times called golden by the ancients, and not because gold, which in this our age of iron is so highly esteemed, could be found then with no effort, but because those who lived in that time did not know the two words thine and mine. In that blessed age all things were owned in common;" But of course despite his words, DQ then goes on to dismiss Sancho's realistic and wiser opinions as coming from ignorance or lack of nobility. Cervantes seems to never falter from a chance to make fun of DQ and satirize the upper class through his hypocrisy.
Also DQ's saddling Rocinante and his squire's donkey as well as helping Sancho to dress and climb on the donky seems to be an interesting moment in the chapter as the reversal of roles of the knight and squire.
Marcela's comment on the difference between the lover and the loved reminds me of Plato's Lysis, where Socrates discusses reciprocal and non-reciprocal friendship (philia).
Ian wrote: "I'd like to take a brief look at shepherds and sheep as part of the material background of Cervantes' Spain, and their ubiquity. Also, odd as it may seem, in regards to a lot of the events leading ..."Ian, thanks for this!
As a fiber enthusiast, the history and importance of Merino sheep, the canadas all over Spain, etc. came to my mind when reading the scene with the sheep.
Rafael wrote: "...It's said that almost any portuguese word that begins with "al" came from the Arabic"Rafael, there is even a page in wikipedia with portuguese words with origin in arab (https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_d...). There is more than 90 words starting with "al..."!
In the Ormsby translation 'Grisostomo' is written as 'Chrysostom', Greek for "golden-mouthed." One of the Church Fathers, John Chrysostom (AD 349-407) got the title for his eloquent preaching and writings. In the narrative "Chrysostom, who is dead, was a great man for writing verses, so much so that he made carols for Christmas Eve, and plays for Corpus Christi, which the young men of our village acted, and all said they were excellent.", and when we get a little taste of his writing we soon realize he is no Homer.
I don't speak Spanish, what I am wondering, is there a play on words or allusion between the two spellings?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ch...
Monica wrote: "Rafael wrote: "...It's said that almost any portuguese word that begins with "al" came from the Arabic"Rafael, there is even a page in wikipedia with portuguese words with origin in arab (https:/..."
Thank you! It's curious that the only wiki version in another language is an Arabic one.
Kerstin wrote: "In the Ormsby translation 'Grisostomo' is written as 'Chrysostom', Greek for "golden-mouthed." One of the Church Fathers, John Chrysostom (AD 349-407) got the title for his eloquent preaching and w..."In Don Quixote the name is Grisostomo, but in spanish this saint is Crisostomo. So, I guess that the names are not related.
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Cr...
Kerstin wrote: "In the Ormsby translation 'Grisostomo' is written as 'Chrysostom', Greek for "golden-mouthed." One of the Church Fathers, John Chrysostom (AD 349-407) got the title for his eloquent preaching and w..."Kerstin, I have tried to find some reference about the name "Grisostomo" and everywhere it says that it refers to a character in Don Quijote and that it seems to be a modified version of "Crisostomo". So, I guess you are right, this is another play/allusion by Cervantes...
Monica wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "In the Ormsby translation 'Grisostomo' is written as 'Chrysostom', Greek for "golden-mouthed." One of the Church Fathers, John Chrysostom (AD 349-407) got the title for his eloquent..."Thank you for looking, Monica!
Rafael wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "In the Ormsby translation 'Grisostomo' is written as 'Chrysostom', Greek for "golden-mouthed." One of the Church Fathers, John Chrysostom (AD 349-407) got the title for his eloquent..."Thanks, Rafael!
The Marcela story is, as others have pointed out, an odd one in that it seems, in some sense, not quite contrived, but out of place in the Don Quixote story or, perhaps, justvery unusual. It is not that I wish to suggest that others who have commented are wrong, but that there is perhaps one or more ideas that Cervantes had in mind when writing the scene. I believe that he was telling us about the way in which he understood living.I would like to suggest that Cervantes used a term which the literary world refers to as onomastics. While there are some varied definitions of this term, I am referring to the following: the science or study of the origin and forms of proper names of persons or places. In the literature, it is well known that Cervantes made excellent use of onomastics, more than likely to write what he meant without incurring the wrath of the church.
To begin, let us examine the lives of St. Marcela, St John Chrysostom (golden mouth,) and St Ambrose and see how they parallel Cervantes’ Marcela, Grisóstomo, and Ambrosio.
Saint Marcella was hailed for the same reasons that Marcela on Don Quixote’s journey is scorned. Saint Marcella, too, refused the hand of any man who wanted her (after being widowed) and pledged herself to asceticism. I argue that her asceticism is the rough Spanish equivalent to being a shepherd. In Catholic society, one unified to the religious devotion of purity, it makes no sense that our Marcela is being blamed for the suicide of a man who pursued her. Grisóstomo was hopelessly chasing her even though her purity should have been of infinite value in a truly Catholic society. But let’s leave that for a moment.
Grisóstomo shares both the ascetic lifestyle and reputation of eloquence as John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople, who happened to be hailed for speaking up against the rules of authority. The same parallel occurs when we compare the life of Saint Ambrose and Ambrosio, both of which adopted an ascetic life. Saint Ambrose embraced an ascetic way of life so that he might give to the poor and reform the liturgy of his diocese after becoming the bishop of Milan. Both of the saints are clearly shepherds, albeit of a different type. The most important role of both the male saints is that they strove to convert the heretics of their diocese back to belief in the divinity of Christ, soon establishing reputations as eloquent speakers and prolific authors on Christian doctrine.
With the appearance of Marcela, Grisóstomo shares both the ascetic lifestyle and reputation of eloquence as John Chrysostom. I believe that Cervantes is here arguing that if a man might be converted from a pagan life to one that is Christian, might he not also be converted from a Christian life back to one which is pagan? While Grisóstomo was once clearly well involved in the life as a Christian, he turns from that course to become a pagan. His love for Marcela, desperate as it is, is not Christian love.
I wrote a good deal more of explanation, but I shall wait to see if this generates any discussion before continuing
Rhonda wrote: "The Marcela story is, as others have pointed out, an odd one in that it seems, in some sense, not quite contrived, but out of place in the Don Quixote story or, perhaps, justvery unusual. It is not..."Interesting!
I am not surprised there is a St. Marcela, LOL! I'll have to look her up.
Kerstin wrote: "Interesting! I am not surprised there is a St. Marcela, LOL! I'll have to look her up. "
I think that the most interesting issue is that Cervantes is using Marcela to make a point or some points. There is a great deal that has been written about this in literary journals, especially with how Don Quixote relates with her. Some of it is just laborious modernizing and some of it is quite interesting.
Rhonda wrote: "The Marcela story is, as others have pointed out, an odd one in that it seems, in some sense, not quite contrived, but out of place in the Don Quixote story or, perhaps, justvery unusual. It is not..."This post was fascinating, thank you! I would be interested in reading more of your explanation.
Kerstin wrote: "Marcela struck me as the quintessential bohemian idealist defending her God-given free will and right to self-determination. There is nothing wrong with these per se, but she didn't strike me as smart. Her mistake is that no one lives in a vacuum. Her beauty will attract suitors - sincere and insincere alike - and her choice of roaming the wilderness will catch up with her eventually. Her idealism will be of little help then."
This argument reminds me of people who today say that women shouldn't walk alone after dark, or shouldn't wear short skirts. They should always carry weapons and learn how to defend themselves. They shouldn't be in employed in certain fields. They shouldn't drink and they shouldn't wear high heels in case they have to run. Etc, etc. It will catch up to them if they do.
Kerstin wrote: "If she truly desired the spiritual life wouldn't it have been more common to enter a convent? Here she would not have to worry about unwanted male attention."
Oooh, are you sure about that? Many nuns have been raped and sexually abused, not to mention the almost complete lack of freedom many experienced.
Kristren wrote: "If living in a convent would not have been her inclination, she could always have joined the Third Order of any convent of her choosing, living the life of a contemplative outside convent walls."
But then she'd be back in the same position of dangling herself in front of men. Any vows she takes would not make her less beautiful or cause feelings to be extinguished. If her idealism is of no help to her if a man should decide to press his advantage, I don't see how her membership in a third order would be either.
I don't find the slapstick humor in Don Quixote very funny, unfortunately. At least not the beatings and hitting and losing the teeth and all that. I did get a good laugh out of Sancho's erupting from "both channels" after swallowing DQ's magic potion, and then of him and DQ puking on each other.
Paige wrote: "This argument reminds me of people who today say that women shouldn't walk alone after dark, ..."Marcela is put into a negative light right from the beginning. Neither the goat herders nor the village in general think her behavior appropriate given her status. She gets called "that devil of a village girl." That's pretty damaging.
Paige wrote: Oooh, are you sure about that? Many nuns have been raped and sexually abused, not to mention the almost complete lack of freedom many experienced.
No human institution is free of abuses. That said, few would say that convents are dangerous places for women.
The cloistered life is not a prison. The person entering the religious life does so out of his/her free will, and you have years of personal discernment before making final vows. Marcela's guardian is not forcing her in this direction. The only reason I even mentioned this option for her is that it used to be quite common for women who didn't want to marry to enter a convent, even if it was only temporary. Do I think Marcela would have gone to a convent? At this stage very unlikely.
Paige wrote: "This post was fascinating, thank you! I would be interested in reading more of your explanation."This is part 2 and I apologize for it being long. I research and write these things out when I am unsure of what the text is trying to say. None of it is new research, per se.
With the appearance of Marcela, Grisóstomo shares both the ascetic lifestyle and reputation of eloquence of John Chrysostom. I believe that Cervantes is here arguing that if a man might be converted from a pagan life to one that is Christian, might he not also be converted from a Christian life back to one which is pagan? While Grisóstomo was once clearly well involved in the life as a Christian, he turns from that course to become a pagan. His love for Marcela, desperate as it is, is not Christian love.
Before we can piece this together, we must understand the purpose of Don Quixote in all of this. In fact, it is his oration to the goatherds which introduces the very nexus of his involvement with Marcela. Don Quixote has stated that his effort is to bring back the Golden Age. But what Golden Age would that be? His speech reminisces of an imaginary time all the way back to Hesiod, but it also calls to mind Virgil’s fourth Eclogue, a work which was highly prized by the church because it seemed to prophecy the coming of Jesus Christ. This Golden Age story has a myriad of classical and modern sources including Hesiod, Plato, Ovid, Virgil, Dante, Tasso and Guevara. Cervantes’ readers were probably familiar with it from Antonio de Guevara.
Don Quixote’s speech shows a kind of progression from an ideal world, one in which there is no distinction between me and thee because there is no want which places itself against another’s existence or daily needs of one another person.
A happy age cried he, which our first Parents called the Age of Gold! Not because of Gold, so much adored in this iron Age, was then easily purchased, but because those two fatal words, mine and thine, were distinctions unknown to the people of those fortunate times. Men, for their sustenance needed only to lift their hands and take it from the sturdy oak.,…All then was union, all peace, all love and friendship in the world…..Then was the time when innocent shepherdesses went tripping over the hills and vales….Lovers then expressed the passion of their souls in the unaffected language of the heart….Deceit and malice had not yet crept in and imposed themselves unbribed upon mankind in the disguise of truth and simplicity… The modest maid might walk wherever she pleased alone, free from the attacks of lewd, lascivious importuners. But in this degenerate age, fraud and a legion of ills affecting the world, no virtue can be safe, no honor be secure….Thus that primitive innocence being vanished, and oppression daily prevailing, there was a necessity to oppose the torrent of violence: for which the order of Knight Errant was instituted to defend the honor of virgins, protect widows, relieve orphans and assist all the distressed in general.
Don Quixote, if he has any reason for his continued existence, must see in Marcela, a woman free from her bonds and desired by others as a woman he must protect and defend. Marcela is, for even Don Quixote, the admixture of his duty as a knight, yet she remains, as for all the others, a carnal desire which none can have. Her unapproachable character makes her more desirable for all men.
As Marcela has grown up, she has thrown off the bonds of restraint, (the limited choices which women has,) and she has achieved great wealth through her father and then through her uncle who is a priest. Her uncle, after she achieves a marriageable age, does not require her to marry. Hence she takes the final steps and frees herself from the church by taking up the life of a shepherdess. She eschews a traditional life,( one in which women’s roles are limited to choosing the right husband,) to take up a new existence, one both independent and also fatally attractive towards men. It has been suggested that as she meets Don Quixote, it becomes apparent to him that that he is, in a sense, her spiritual father. In protecting her, he essentially justifies his own existence.
Moving back to Grisóstomo, his life has taken a U-turn in his pursuit of Marcela. He moves from his Christian creative enterprises and adopts, with his friend Ambrosio, the life of a shepherd and an oratory along the line of Virgil’s Bucolics. Once again, the names of Chrysostom and Ambrose call into mind the great saints of the fourth and fifth century which encouraged the adoption of Christian life over the pagan. The lesson here must be, especially considering Grisóstomo’s last wishes for his burial, that perhaps his life may originally have developed from the natural to the Christian, but he had definitely changed from the Christian to the natural in pursuit of Marcela. The commentary on his death and burial choices indicate how he had moved away from his church successes, popularity and beliefs.
Ambrosio, says:
“He loved deeply and was rejected; he adored and was scorned; he pleaded with a wild beast, importuned a piece of marble, pursued the wind, shouted in the desert, served ingratitude and his reward was to fall victim to death in the middle of his life, which was ended by a shepherdess whom he attempted to immortalize so that she would live on in memory.”
Every thought evoked here is about the feelings of a lover for his beloved. There is no shred of intellectuality in it and no shred of theological love, but only the celebration of the pain of natural love. Ambrosio, too, has turned like his friend.
Marcela, to her credit, responds to Ambrosio’s accusations with great reason. She says, Why do you want to force me to surrender my will, obliged to do so simply because you say you love me? She remains distant and aloof, unable to understand these men who seem to have their roles reversed. She is not unable to understand, but she doesn’t understand how someone else can place an obligation on her which she doesn’t care to acknowledge.
In a world in which all men are desirous of being joined to Marcela (or any other woman, come to that,) even Don Quixote, too, is as carnal as his horse after the mares. He connects to Marcela through his desire to connect with Dulcinea, but it is not entirely chaste. Marcela rejects all men and all want. Marcela wants for nothing. She is autonomous, self-sufficient and unattainably divine. She is a vita nova.
However because Marcela is perfectly disinterested in others, this perfect lack of interest in Marcela incites men. They realize through her perfection, the lack of perfection in themselves, which they wish to end by joining themselves to her. Once again it is not Marian or chaste.
This entire episode with Marcela is the lesson of our appetites, our desires, which Cervantes wishes to show us. It begins with the physical or natural and proceeds to the theological. The humanist issue is about survival, a real physical hunger or desire which Don Quixote says is part of the corrupt world in which we now find ourselves. The spiritual issue is such that what we want for most, we cannot have. As desire increases, God is farther away. Although we cannot yet understand the complete scenario, Don Quixote’s commitment to Dulcinea takes on the same cursed condition of everyone else who lives in desire. The holy becomes unattainable, but this increases the desire, which embodies sin.
Don Quixote’s two main efforts are to find the right direction for his own life as well as to change that of others.
I would not venture to agree or disagree with the arguments you put forward, Rhonda, but it seems to me that it could also be read a bit simpler: I think Cervantes was a stone-cold realist. A brief glance at his biography would certainly support that. But I think he also was congenitally wired to see the humor and the good in people as well. As a realist, he saw how much of the world lived in a world of illusion--it didn't make him cynical, or Don Quixote would have been a much different book. I think he was very perceptive and understanding--certainly far ahead of his time in regarding women and their limited options in the world of his time. No doubt he had a reason for choosing cognates of saint's names for these characters--I read this as a way of piercing illusions, of bringing things down to an earthly level, of not getting caught up in some kind of mythic structure. It isn't just Don Quixote who is living in illusion--it's everyone, and the book is an effort to satirize (kindly and gently) people's need to look away from reality. (I realize that 'kindly and gently' may seem an odd choice of words, given the brutality so far, but I mean that in the sense that Cervantes is not scornful or dismissive of people.)
If I wrote a story about three garbage-men (sanitation disposal experts) who just happened to have the names George Bush, Barack Obama, and Donald Trump, people nowadays would realize I was making some kind of comment. Five hundred years from now, that commentary would certainly be muted. None of that, of course, disproves what you say above--that could be the commentary that Cervantes was going for, though I myself lean toward simple, broad satire.
Kerstin wrote: "Ian wrote: "I'd like to take a brief look at shepherds and sheep ... Ian, thanks for this!
As a fiber enthusiast, the history and importance of Merino sheep, the canadas all over Spain, etc. came to my mind when reading the scene with the sheep..."
This is a follow-up to messages 75 and 92, on the scale of sheep-ranching in sixteenth-century Spain, and why flocks might resemble armies in terms of the disturbance they made while migrating from place to place.
According to Robert H. Elliott's Imperial Spain, 1469-1716, page 188: "in the mid-1520s the flocks of the *Mesta* reached their peak in a figure of some three and half million head of sheep."
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
Imperial Spain, 1469 - 1716 (other topics)How to Read Literature Like a Professor: A Lively and Entertaining Guide to Reading Between the Lines (other topics)
Daphnis and Chloe (other topics)
The Countess of Pembroke's Arcadia (other topics)
The History of the Kings of Britain (other topics)
Shepherds live on the fringes of society and due to the nature of their work can't/won't participate in society's and culture's rhythm and rituals, secular and/or religious. In other words, they are not regular participants in the norms that hold society and a culture together.
Marcela struck me as the quintessential bohemian idealist defending her God-given free will and right to self-determination. There is nothing wrong with these per se, but she didn't strike me as smart. Her mistake is that no one lives in a vacuum. Her beauty will attract suitors - sincere and insincere alike - and her choice of roaming the wilderness will catch up with her eventually. Her idealism will be of little help then.
Grisostomo, just as privileged and idealistic, lusts after/loves the bohemian beauty - it is hard to say. To me he represents the chap who is ready to sow his wild oats, and on the fringes of society that's the place to do it. To his frustration the girl who seems to have chosen the same life-style is nothing but a tease. Whether or not she intents to be is irrelevant. To his credit he remembers his good breeding and accepts her refusal. Marcela's coldness at his funeral tells me she wasn't worth it.